[Deck] Death and Taxes

Ended up playing against Miracles and UW StoneBlade a truckload of times. Brightling felt great. It+Vial@3 was basically beatable. Shalai...less so. It was probably just a function of the match-up though. White removal is really good against her, especially when the opponent has access to sweepers and may not care about Mother+Shalai. I'll need to give her another run against other decks before I come to a firmer conclusion, however.

One strike against her: ticking Vial up to 4 feels -awful- with Brightling in the deck.

Toying with G splash ideas again... did you know that Rishkar, Peema Renegade exists? This is an interesting creature, I think: recruitable, brings 3 or 4 power on the table, helps offset -1/-1 effects and damage-based removal, can help accelerate/stabilize mana considerably, and has an interesting recursion element with Karakas. I am somewhat intrigued - it could even make Shalai's activated ability usable.

Hi all, I am new to this archetype, and I am building a Boros version (I really like Jonathan Job list).

I have 3 questions :

• I would like to play an Orzhov Pontiff ; are the 4 Vials + 2 Caverns enough to cast it reliably, or do I need a Scrubland ?
  Is really P&K Naalar the best 4 drop in this build ? what about Shalai ?
  Is Brighling worth playing (as a 1 of ?) despite the 2 Caverns that do not produce white mana for its activated abilities ?

Thanks :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ParisFlorian

Hi all, I am new to this archetype, and I am building a Boros version (I really like Jonathan Job list).

I have 3 questions :

• I would like to play an Orzhov Pontiff ; are the 4 Vials + 2 Caverns enough to cast it reliably, or do I need a Scrubland ?
  Is really P&K Naalar the best 4 drop in this build ? what about Shalai ?
  Is Brighling worth playing (as a 1 of ?) despite the 2 Caverns that do not produce white mana for its activated abilities ?

Thanks :)

---

Ad Scrubland: I played a list with 3 Cavern of Souls and 4 Aether Vials as the only ways to put both Magus of the Moon and Orzhov Pontiff onto the battlefield. Sure, you end up with them "stranded" in your hand every once in a hwile, but the benefits hugely outweight the drawbacks, in my experience. You definitely do not need a dual-/fetchland manabase for a very light, creature-only splash to work.

Ad P&K: I guess it depends on the particular metagame, but frankly, I'm not very up to date on D&T these days. Both are very good cars in a vacuum, but I'd say that P&K is the stronger option in a Miracles-infested metagame (mainly due to them being recruitable), while the 2 toughness is a liability in a metagame with Kolaghan's Command running rampant.

Ad Brightling: A promising and very flexible option, but I'm somewhat unsure of its viability in a cavern-heavy build. I think you really want unconditionally white mana available with this card, and you'll often find yourself without that in a list that runs 4 Wasteland, 4 Rishadan Port, and 2-3 Cavern of Souls.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ParisFlorian

Hi all, I am new to this archetype, and I am building a Boros version (I really like Jonathan Job list).

I have 3 questions :

• I would like to play an Orzhov Pontiff ; are the 4 Vials + 2 Caverns enough to cast it reliably, or do I need a Scrubland ?
  Is really P&K Naalar the best 4 drop in this build ? what about Shalai ?
  Is Brighling worth playing (as a 1 of ?) despite the 2 Caverns that do not produce white mana for its activated abilities ?

Thanks :)

---

On using Caverns over Duals+Fetches: Not a great idea. With 4 Caverns, you will usually be able to cast them. However, now you have a lot of potentially non-white mana sources in a deck that needs a lot of white mana. If you want to reliably cast Pontiff AND Flickerwisp, you need to use fetches and duals.

On PnKN vs Shalai: They're both great, but different. PnKN is one of the two best reasons to play Wr, and is absolutely crushing versus control. Shalai is also good, but a drop weaker versus control and instead with lots of upside against random other decks. Both of these cards are under pressure by Brightling though, who really wants all of your mana, and your Vials to stay on 3.

On Brightling in a Caverns build: Probably yes, but I definitely wouldn't go over 2 copies. You really want triple-white (or at least Vial and white) for best results, and a Cavern manabase won't find that third white source until turn 7 on average.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redtwister

What if we take this as a base, with Brightling and Remorseful Cleric (RC hereafter) as new includes that seem very strong. I'm going to go with some points Medea_ made on his stream this morning and then add a few thoughts.

Creaturesc 23 (2-3 slots open)
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Brightling
1 Remorseful Cleric

Spells 8
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

Equipment 3
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands 23 (0-1 slots open)
12 white
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas

Sideboard
2 Cataclysm
2 Canonist
2 RiP
2 Surgical/Faerie
2 Path to Exile
2 Council's Judgment
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Other (Containment Priest, Gideon, Sanctum Prelate, Pithing Needle, etc.)

WARNING: WALL OF TEXT INCOMING

Meta decks Medea_ focused on:
Grixis Delver, 4c Control, Miracles, Sneak and Show, Mono-R Prison, Lands, Reanimator, DnT, Eldrazi Stompy. (I would add in ANT; Elves isn't getting better in either case.)


The New Cards
1. Brightling seems very strong against the current Tier 1 meta: lifegain is relevant, being able to adjust P/T is relevant, bounce to evade is relevant, and vigilance isn't bad sometimes too. However, it also has a bit of a logic of it's own that it exerts on the deck building.
a. 1WW with a lot of W for effects means lands not making W are less and less welcome. Shapeshifter also makes Cavern pretty bad. The result is that we want maximum true W sources, making Horizon Canopy and possibly Flagstones the only really viable alternatives to Plains + Karakas as we currently stand.
b. Brightling may or may not make Batterskull less important. Lifelink is the first obvious similarity, but so is the ability to bounce it, and for W instead of 3. Brightling can be Vialed in but not tutored for. Brightling can also become a 5/1 or 1/5 depending on what you really need.
c. Does this become the new way to race TNN, despite the lack of offensive evasion (bounce is strictly defensive evasion)?

2. RC is a 2/1 flyer for 1W that exiles from target player's graveyard on sac. Those are not bad stats and effects.
a. Strong against Delver, ANT, and 4C in general, great against Reanimator, and Lands. Probably not hugely relevant against Mono-R Prison, Eldrazi Stompy, Elves and Sneak and Show.
b. Seems like it would wear a sword well and will come down reliably on turn 2, unlike the better tank known as Serra Avenger which is a slot it would fight over.
c. Does not necessarily wreck Tarmogoyf or DRS since it only hits one graveyard. Just saying.
d. Not taxed by Thalia and comes in off of Vial, which are important attributes.

Questions about choices if we are using Brightling main
1. Deck space gets tighter because the flex slots more or less have been 5-6 slots currently taken up by Serra Avenger, Mirran Crusader, Palace Jailer and to a much lesser extent, Shalai.
2. Probably makes a very strong case for 24 lands so you can have 16 white sources.
3. I don't think RC changes the deck as much as Brightling, since there are still plenty of situations in which we want RiP and Surgical/Faerie in the side.

Trying to Get Out of the Box (I lay no claim to making new claims here, I am just trying to assemble some thoughts i have had and ideas I have heard)
1. Do we need Batterskull if we have 1-2 Brightling?
a. Option 1: -1 SFM,, -1 Batterskull
b. Options 2a-c: -1 Batterskull, +1 Other Sword. 2a: This is potentially interesting because Sword of War and Peace is both another source of life gain and a very good card against Miracles and DnT. 2b: However, with the abilities, maybe Sword of Feast and Famine is interesting for the untap after combat, though I think it pairs less well with Crusader and does less for us in general. 2c: If lifelink and one-sided graveyard hate is relevant, maybe Sword of Light and Dark is a consideration?

2. Is Cataclysm worse if consistent access to W mana is increasingly important?
a. Cataclysm is very good versus Lands and Miracles, but would any of the above alter that math?
b. Would something like Gideon come back or even Elpseth, Knight-Errant? (No, the new 4 mana Ajani isn't good enough, but I thought about it for a couple of seconds.) Elspeth in particular has some nice synergies here.

3. If 24 lands and a very consistent W manabase is back on the table, are Palace Jailer and Shalai back on the menu? (For lots of players, Jailer never went away.)

---

I believe the issues raised in this post (above) are the ones that will give fuel to a good discussion towards an attempt to consolidate a 'new' WW D&T decklist. I think we should be discussing (and soon testing) these points.

We are used to Wasteland + Port being a mini-combo, because Wasteland tells opponents to fetch basics, but Port is very good against basics.

Field of Ruin is getting more interesting to me. It helps with the same kind of tension (opponents have to fetch their basics, but if they fetch all of the basics, Field of Ruin is excellent). Field of Ruin also ends up being a white source later in the game which is exactly where we are currently looking for more white sources (Brightling and 2WW noncreature spells).

My most mana-hungry list (with full SFM package and 3 Brightling) is now running 25 lands: the standard 12 plains, 3 Karakas but then 4 Waste, 4 Port, 2 Field.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChrisCunningham

We are used to Wasteland + Port being a mini-combo, because Wasteland tells opponents to fetch basics, but Port is very good against basics.

Field of Ruin is getting more interesting to me. It helps with the same kind of tension (opponents have to fetch their basics, but if they fetch all of the basics, Field of Ruin is excellent). Field of Ruin also ends up being a white source later in the game which is exactly where we are currently looking for more white sources (Brightling and 2WW noncreature spells).

My most mana-hungry list (with full SFM package and 3 Brightling) is now running 25 lands: the standard 12 plains, 3 Karakas but then 4 Waste, 4 Port, 2 Field.

---

How's 3 brightling treating you? I bought a foil set and am debating on how many to sell. 4 is definitely too many but I can see 3.

I do like field of ruin if you go up to 25 lands, it's pretty "free," hate.

At 25 land, I'd really start to worry about threat density versus Pile and similar decks where Brightling does not ensure a win on its own.

I bought 4 Japanese nonfoil as that is my "thing" and I won't be getting rid of any.

25 lands is a lot...but for 3 Brightling, maybe? I'm on 24 lands, 2 B-ling main, 1 B-ling and so far, so good. Truth time: card is really good vs. Czech Pile so far. A lot of their removal isn't good enough, nor do they really have enough of it. Strix gets overwhelmed by the first half of the game where it's DnT business as usual, as well as the trickle of creatures later.

I am, however, not doing very well vs. Miracles, the UW build, not the red splash.

Hey everyone! I thought I would share my success this week at my local game store. I went 4-0 on my Tuesday night event and 3-1 on my Friday night event, missing the perfect week by losing my last round. My thoughts when I first saw brightling in the battlebond spoilers, was it is playable, just not for me. Now that I've tested it. It is now one of my favorite cards in the deck. Brightling has saved me in so many games and matches.
Here is my decklist.

Creatures:26
X4 mother of runes
X4 Thalia, GOT
X4 stoneforge mystic
X2 phyrexian revoker
X2 Serra avenger
X4 flickerwisp
X2 recruiter of the guard
X2 Miran crusader
X2 brightling

Spells: 11
X4 aether vial
X4 swords to plowshares
X1 umezawa's jitte
X1 sword of fire and ice
X1 batterskull

Lands: 23
6 plains
6 snow covered plains
3 Karakas
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port

Sideboard: 15
X3 path to exile
X2 ethersworn canonist
X1 containment priest
X1 leonin relic warder
X3 rest in piece
X1 recruiter of the guard
X2 council's judgment
X2 cataclysm

I didn't really take detailed notes about my matches. Just what won me the game. There is footage of my Friday night matches on twitch( paragon city games) However, they jump back and forth too much to get the full match.

Tuesday night report: 4-0
Rnd 1 Merfolk:2-0
G1: removal and Serra avenger equipped with sofai for the win.
G2: batterskull equipped with sofai for the win.

Rnd 2 grixis delver: 2-0
No notes

Rnd 3 grixis delver: 2-1
No notes

Rnd 4 WUr miracles: 2-0
G1: double vial, ported down, wasted,and flickered there white sources. I dealt 10 damage one combat and 14 the next combat.
G2: he is at 9 life. I have another massive board state with vial on 3. He taps out to cast terminus and on his end step, I put in mirran crusader. Then on my turn I equip Sofia and attack for lethal.

Friday night event: 3-1
Rnd 1 BUG control: 2-0
G1: mirran crusader equipped with sofai for the win.
G2: opp. Keeps one land hand with dread of night. I win with 3 stoneforge mystics in play.

Rnd 2 tezzarator: 2-0
I was on stream so I didn't take notes.

Rnd 3 grixis delver: 2-1
I was on stream so no notes again.

Rnd 4 UW miracles: 0-2
I was on stream. if you feel like watching me choke go right ahead.

Brightling sure did look strong in your matches. I have been liking Brightling also. The many options are a bigger deal than I would have expected. As I have mentioned, Shalai has also been strong. Does anyone have anything bad to say about Brightling?

^ ww was kind of awkward sometimes. You just have to keep those opening 7 hands with a w land, a colorless, and a vial. Then hope to draw a 2ND w land.

Finn, where are you putting Shalai and how many are you using?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Finn

Brightling sure did look strong in your matches. I have been liking Brightling also. The many options are a bigger deal than I would have expected. As I have mentioned, Shalai has also been strong. Does anyone have anything bad to say about Brightling?

---

I have gotten a TON of messages/emails/pms about Brightling. People love it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Finn, where are you putting Shalai and how many are you using?

---

I am hoping that Brightling can simply be our beater. I think the deck wants three, but I do not own three yet. Shalia is something new. I had three for testing, and it did not feel like too many. But, ya know. Space.



4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Brightling
2 Shalai, Voice of Plenty

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice <--thanks, Jumbo
1 Batterskull

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Plains
5 Snow-Covered Plains


On another note: I realize that the deck is trending into expensive creatures. I am more comfortable with this than I used to be. They are actually larger and so harder to kill for red.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Umezete

How's 3 brightling treating you? I bought a foil set and am debating on how many to sell. 4 is definitely too many but I can see 3.

I do like field of ruin if you go up to 25 lands, it's pretty "free," hate.

---

The only quality testing I have is against miracles, and every single game felt trivially easy with 3 Brightling. This makes sense though; if we add a bunch of expensive unkillable stuff we will be better against control decks that don't have Baleful Strix. Having tons of lands felt amazing, too. One time I drew all 3 Brightling, which was sad because I couldn't effectively deploy a second one, but then, it wasn't all that sad since the first one instantly ended the game.

When your board is Thalia+Brightling and you have Karakas+Plains up, and your opponent has to Terminus nothing just for tempo, you're doing it.

@Finn, your list only has 59 cards. I'm assuming you missed the SOFI.

DRS and probe are banned.

Maybe now I can play dnt again haha

Might be premature but I reckon we'll be a DTB again in no time. Time to punish those $1000+ manabases again.

Here’s to hoping Reanimator makes a comeback, how do we against matchup Canadian Threshold?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jwl3gg

Here’s to hoping Reanimator makes a comeback, how do we against matchup Canadian Threshold?

---

Great. Actual 75-25 if not better

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jwl3gg

Here’s to hoping Reanimator makes a comeback, how do we against matchup Canadian Threshold?

---

We do great against RUG. Delver decks used to be our dream matchup pre-DRS and Angler.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bosque

We do great against RUG. Delver decks used to be our dream matchup pre-DRS and Angler.

---

Makes me wonder how D&T is positioned now that Brightling turned out to be the new hotness AND DRS being gone.

Feels like this is going to be a pretty epic shake-up. I have never played Legacy without DRS and Probe.

Does Delver just become RUG and UR? Wasn't BUG pretty DRS-dependent too?

Wow, mana is going to be pretty wild.

I guess I expect Stifle to return now.

These are exciting times! I'm very OK with both of these extremely boring cards gone for good. I'm pretty sure that no matter the direction the meta is going to take, D&T will be well-equipped - maybe even better than ever! - to deal with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by colo

These are exciting times! I'm very OK with both of these extremely boring cards gone for good. I'm pretty sure that no matter the direction the meta is going to take, D&T will be well-equipped - maybe even better than ever! - to deal with it.

---

True. I think it would be wise to pack a bit of extra graveyard hate for awhile at least as players take their reanimator and dredge decks out of mothballs. And I expect to be more dependent upon Enlightened Tutor during the immediate transition because the meta will be less predictable. In fact, I would like to see a list that attempts to be complete of this sort (which of course is not).

Expect to see more of:
Miracles
Reanimator
Lands
mirror

Expect to see less of:
Jund
Leovold
Kolaghan's Command
Storm
Tropical Island

Hello there, first post from a long time lurker and D&T player. ;)

And what a day to post my first message here !

Elves took a hit, and I guess... Baleful Strix too ? It's hard to evaluate whether GBx fair decks will manage to stay viable, but it makes me wanna go down to 1x Mirran Crusader right now (it also strenghtens the choice of only 2x Phyrexian Revoker). I feel it's going to be about how good Noble Hierarch and Tarmogoyf will become.

I'm crying with happiness right now. After 5 years of agony, I feel like justice has finally been served. What's coming is the Legacy I know and love, and I'll thoroughly enjoy every single minute of it until WotC inevitably fucks it up again.

Also, keep an eye on Containment Priest, and buy them if you still don't have them. The card hits Maverick, Sneak, Reanimator, Tin Fins, Dredge and many other decks that will be assured to play a big part in the new meta.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frenadol

I'm crying with happiness right now. After 5 years of agony, I feel like justice has finally been served. What's coming is the Legacy I know and love, and I'll thoroughly enjoy every single minute of it until WotC inevitably fucks it up again.

Also, keep an eye on Containment Priest, and buy them if you still don't have them. The card hits Maverick, Sneak, Reanimator, Tin Fins, Dredge and many other decks that will be assured to play a big part in the new meta.

---

Good call on the Priests. I am extremely excited about playing Reanimator and D&T in the upcoming meta.

The mana-denial game is what D&T does best, and DRS was a huge pain, having to use Swords or Revoker naming DRS.
A turn one DRS on the play was so frustratingly powerful, considering how D&T needs to stay ahead to effectively deny your opponent's resources.

Going forward, I am curious to see how D&T will adapt to the use of different mana sources. I feel like Thalia + Wasteland improved greatly. I'm really excited about mana denial, especially early in the format. The printing of cards like Brightling. Meh. Card is great. But, I'm tired of hearing about the white morphling.
Beaters are beaters. It's the hatebears that bring home the bacon.

Maybe Sanctum Prelate becomes relevant again?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by potentia

Maybe Sanctum Prelate becomes relevant again?

---

It was always relevant.

That aside I feel real happy about all these changes. Still not sold on Brightling and if anything this banning hurts that card. We will see how the format levels out. At this point thinking any current list is up to date or correct is wrong. We got some meta gaming to figure out. And that’s exciting.

Just adding my voice to the chorus that is very optimistic for this turn of events. I also don't think that my build needs much tweaking either for the anticipated meta. Good times.

Tomorrow morning at ~9:15 am EST I'm going to stream a discussion on the Post-DRS/Probe world. Then streams from there on out will be Brightling testing parties!!! https://www.twitch.tv/deathandtaxesftw

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marungo

It was always relevant.

That aside I feel real happy about all these changes. Still not sold on Brightling and if anything this banning hurts that card. We will see how the format levels out. At this point thinking any current list is up to date or correct is wrong. We got some meta gaming to figure out. And that’s exciting.

---

I disagree, brightling is a safer late game threat than crusader in the open meta. It's also a fast clock even without equip. I think the bannings cemented the card in d&t for now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barook

Makes me wonder how D&T is positioned now that Brightling turned out to be the new hotness AND DRS being gone.

---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha-uagjJQ9k

As good as it can be, don't we have enough mana sinks between equipment, Stoneforge and Ports? It's also a mostly defensive card, and it doesn't help versus True-Derp. Granted, they can't race Brightling by attacking with TNN because lifelink, but lifelink is negated if they use it to block Brightling.

I will admit it does look stellar vs burn decks however. And it's miles easier to keep alive than most anything else.

Also, off topic, Tormod's Flying Bear looks pretty damn good in a post-DRS world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarthVicious

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha-uagjJQ9k

As good as it can be, don't we have enough mana sinks between equipment, Stoneforge and Ports? It's also a mostly defensive card, and it doesn't help versus True-Derp. Granted, they can't race Brightling by attacking with TNN because lifelink, but lifelink is negated if they use it to block Brightling.

I will admit it does look stellar vs burn decks however. And it's miles easier to keep alive than most anything else.

Also, off topic, Tormod's Flying Bear looks pretty damn good in a post-DRS world.

---

I think I am okay with Brightling causing True-Name Nemesis to stay on defense. I would even call that a win. But that is when we face it against BUG colors. You should expect to see it paired with Stoneforge Mystic in the coming months, making that standoff much less in our favor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Umezete

I disagree, brightling is a safer late game threat than crusader in the open meta. It's also a fast clock even without equip. I think the bannings cemented the card in d&t for now.

---

We will see. I’m not sold on a mana sink that’s not tutorable and a slower overall clock than crusader. And please nobody reply what it does well. I can read that card, I know what it does well and the sheer fact I own it means I clearly don’t think it’s bad. I just don’t think it’s some slam dunk staple nor even something that is better in this blind meta. I will say I believe not playing a prelate main is a mistake right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marungo

We will see. I’m not sold on a mana sink that’s not tutorable and a slower overall clock than crusader. And please nobody reply what it does well. I can read that card, I know what it does well and the sheer fact I own it means I clearly don’t think it’s bad. I just don’t think it’s some slam dunk staple nor even something that is better in this blind meta. I will say I believe not playing a prelate main is a mistake right now.

---

Why do you think Prelate main is the right choice right now? Is it because you think more combo is on the horizon?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Why do you think Prelate main is the right choice right now? Is it because you think more combo is on the horizon?

---

Yes. Combo and lands are gonna be just some of the “free wins” decks I expect initially. Don’t know if y’all remember but prelate is a house vs lands. It’s also a 1 of that is even better against RUG Delver than it was vs Grixis. In general a very strong card that can hedge our matchups vs the combo and lands decks that people play in the initial weeks. The format won’t be the same fair and midrange grindfest it has been imo.