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Originally Posted by partyx2000
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Originally Posted by Nelis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by partyx2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelis
@Nelis
I'm sorry, I don't understand the reasoning as well. A turn two war marshal followed by a turn three cheiftain? Not only is that ONLY 6 damage if unblocked, it is unlikely you'll be swinging for the 6 damage on turn 3 since against aggro decks, they'd probably block your chieftain and against blue decks, you would have walked into a daze.. which is bad.
I get that warchief in the same slot would do less damage and be susceptible to the same removal/counter magic, but warchief is a tempo gain they have to remove where as chieftain doesn't have to be removed until the attacking turn.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that although chieftain might be an awsome card, I don't think he should replace warchief entirely and that you are playing them for the wrong reasons.
war marshal is best played for one mana or through a vial and a war marshal on turn two is best followed by paying the upkeep or a second war marshal.. That's just what I think.
update time:
I am trying to update my Goblin deck. Its a mono-red list (due to budget restrictions)
Here is my current list:
There has been a lot of talk with Mogg War-Marshall lately. Is it really effective? I have been contemplating on replacing Warren Instigators with them. FoulQ has discussed that Warren Instigators are really good but I find them dead late game. If I ever rip them out early though, they are a bomb. They are mostly removal fodder to make way for the the chiefs or Piledriver. And its a bonus if they actually hit. I have been thinking of using Mogg War-Marshalls because apparently they are good against the other the aggro decks of the format. They also support Incinerator in that manner. If I ever replace Warren Instigators for Mogg War-Marshalls, would [cards]Goblin Pyromancer[/Goblin] be a one-of?Quote:
Sideboarding:
I noticed that since Alara saw print, Goblin Sharpshooter has not seen any action from the sideboard. They might not be as good against Zoo and Merfolk but would they be good against Combo Elves and Thopters? I feel that Goblin Sharpshooter needs to be re-evaluated like Mogg War-Marshall.
Also, I have grown fond of Anarchy for the mono-red builds. There isn't really a consistent Enchantress player in my meta but it does show up once in a while. I think Anarchy is a great answer card against white splashed board-control decks. Coutnerbalance decks on the other hand, I think we dont really need Anarchy against them. Besides, Goblins does a real good job against that archetype anyways.
Also, would Boartusk Liege be good against the aggro decks of the format? Would Goblin King compare to Lord of Atlantis? I have heard stories of Goblin King being the MVP against zoo (paired with the chiefs) being able to plow unblocked to the opposing opponent.
Speaking of Zoo, how should I play that matchup? Should I just try to take the Zoo player to late game (if its possible) and win via card advantage?
Thanks for the advices.
I'm ignoring the best case scenario which is having a Aether Vial into play, its the worst case scenarios I'm more interested in.Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
1. If you're playing against Zoo you will not be attacking anyway because you are the control player. You have to 'sacrifice' a lot of resources (goblins) playing vs Zoo. Wether it be Chieftain of Warchief or any Goblin, you need them to block until you can run them over with Ringleaders generated card advantage.
When it is time to attack (late game and with enough mana to play stuff) I want to put as much pressure in as possible. A Siege-Gang and Chieftain do that better than Siege Gang and Warchief.
Playing around Daze is worse than running into it if those are the only choices. But it all depends on the cards in hand. It's not that I go turn 3 Chieftain at all costs. If I have the possibility to play a card that that costs two mana (Piley or War Marshal) I'll do that and play Chieftain on turn 4 so I wont be Dazed either. But sometimes it is necessary to have a card Dazed so you're able to push other cards through.
I understand that I will miss out on an occasional Warchief, Piledriver play on turn 4 but I willing to take that (small) risk in favor of more consistency.
2. I don't get what you mean by 'doesn't have to be removed until the attacking turn.' In my opinion the tempo gain of warchief is only relevant in mid and lategame when there's enough mana available to make use of warchief. A lot of times we're busy doing other stuff early game anyway like using Rishadan Port. That's why I only need Warchief from midgame onwards and thus I'm running only two.
3. I'm not advocating to replace Warchief. I believe in a peaceful coexistence between the two. I want to increase the chance on having more haste in the deck. But both lords fulfill a different role at different stages during the game (the ones I explained) and with both lords I simply have more options. But like I said I might go for 3/3 Warchief / Chieftain configuration. But only as soon as I have the feeling I lose out too often by running only 2 Warchiefs.
4. So if the situation permits you to play Chieftain on turn 3 you rather play another War Marshal and do an attack for 1 damage than 6 damage? Or you rather pay the upkeep cost of a War Marshal and do 2 damage on turn 3 than 6 damage? Why?
No you definitely don't. Just from my recent RB days I enjoy having 6-7 removal and stingscourger is the next best "removal" option to gempalm in monored. Especially in the format currently where creatures are the primary battleground.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelis
If anyone is wondering, I did once test a list with 4 sting/3 gempalm: it was bad. 4 Sting should never happen.
My MonoR list isn't very tested right now, I'm working on Rg and Rw. But it looks something like this, either 22 or 23 lands (-1 SGC)
ESSENTIALS (20)
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
FLEX (14)
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Stingscourger
3 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Chieftain
MANA (26)
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
14 Mountain
SIDEBOARD (15)
4 Pyrokinesis
4 GY Hate
7 Whatever
A few notes on the synergy in this deck. Yes it does not run instigator but that is because I'm testing out port again in this new meta. If I ran instigator I'd run x2 or x3 and take out at least 2 ports. I still think instigator is good but this build plays a little differently.
This build is looking to optimize t3 matron-->t4 ringleader--> t5 ringleader/sgc/matron --> etc. Generally that's my favorite line of play no matter what so I want to focus on that, as it can't really be stopped by anything. 3 MWM is a stalling tactic and gets along with chieftain to stall longer. They can also be decent beaters if they don't need to buy time. 3 Sting is a lot but is like 6 between MWM/Sting which is mainly for the zoo matchup. Sting also is good on the offensive and STILL to this day, most players don't see him coming. Freaking idiots.
Also with more goblins in play gempalm is better, and with my stalling tactics we will get to the mid or late game with many goblins in play, making gempalm stronger. He also draws me cards to help fix my situation as I transition from control to aggro in many matchups.
4 Pyrokinesis is best because I expect to have more goblins, which means more getting blocked and dying to nacatls and the like, so I expect the combat zone to be littered with damage that pyrokinesis can take advantage of. I also think it is the best removal spell for goblins in a unique way because of the tempo aspect. 4 GY Hate because I can't go a day without it. 7 Whatever, you know, whatever. Mix of chieftains, moons, rebs, a couple rogue goblins like pyromancer/sharpshooter, whatev. Meta choices. I'd definitely have 2 chieftains though, because he fights plague and other random aggro decks, but what people ALWAYS miss is that he ROCKS the mirror. With even hands, chieftain will overwhelm your opponent very fast.
Basically I'm predicting aggro, especially zoo, and this list is meta'd for it. You don't need 6-7 removal I guess, but I want it for this predicted meta. And you could run something besides sting if you wanted, lightning bolt, fanatic, or do the easy thing and splash black for the strong weirding.
I think you are incorrect in saying instigator is dead later in the game. Instigator is a must block pretty much 24/7 whether you are bluffing or not, it economically is usually not worth the risk for your opponent to let an instigator in. Instigator is very strong against all aggro-control lists, especially STP decks. He is must answer 5-8 along with lackey. Gotta love must answers that are also very synergistic with th deck right?Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
I would probably never play goblin pyromancer in the MD again. SB though it is a lot of fun, can come in against decks where your removal is dead like burn or enchantress to increase your clock (since matchups like that are often a clock race in some way or form).
Goblin Sharpshooter is bad because it often time walks you (like certain SB cards people seem to love) similar to why jitte is bad in goblin SBs (along with no reliable evasion of course). Also it sometimes isn't even relevant against the matchups you SB it in for. It's outdated with the power creep on creatures, but not dead. Most decks should stay away from him imo.
Goblins doesn't do that well against CB matchup. It is favorable but not that easy, especially because CB lists can be tuned to beat aggro, and if they meta'd correctly and SB for the matchup it is often enough to make it even.
I don't like boartusk liege or goblin king personally. But I've gotten into that like a million times.
And yes the easiest way to beat zoo is to go for late game CA and then overextend. Which is why I think zoo should be playing pyroclasm in their SB if they expect goblins, but they are still too cocky to ever listen to an established deck goblins player.
@nameless one: I don't think sharpshooter has been cut from most goblin lists. Of the 3 goblin decks that top 16'd at St Louis, 2 of them ran sharpshooter. I was the other one, and it's in my SB now. I think you can expect to see more of him, not so much for elves, but because of how often that extra 1 damage counts. And I stopped using the goblin king trick because they'll usually just zap it then kill all your dudes by blocking. When it comes to zoo, I don't think card advantage is enough. You need control of the game before you can drop ringleader or you'll just die before you can play the cards he gets you. That's why I think you DO need 6-7 removal sources. I run more like 8-9 myself.
@FoulQ: I agree with maybe half or more of what you said, and the other half can be justified in some way except for the statement that we don't do well against CB. If you're really watching the results, you'd see we win over 70% of our matches against them. I'd say that's good. We should probably just ignore that deck when thinking about SB. Half of them don't even run firespout, which is the one card that evens them up with us.
Well then yes you caught me, at least it's good news. I guess I have a personal bias that counterbalance-goyf decks always have the ability to pull wins out of their asses.
When I tried 9 removal I did not like it, but it was a long time ago. It makes it much harder to aggro out, and that is still the primary option in most matchups. It seems like a heavy metagame warp that could work under the right conditions.
I guess we'll just have to disagree on sharpshooter. His effect is good, but often conditional. I don't like risking the 2R investment on something that can't really attack, can barely chump, and whose entire worth is conditional-based. Just to compare, a card like stingscourger is almost always consistently useful (unless you are winning hardcore), and I've always been of the opinion that goblins should aim for consistency. Plus I really like creatures who can bring in the beats if need be (unlike sharpshooter) from my SSG+Jitte in dragon stompy days.
Yeah it was the countertop-goyf decks I was referring to. I personally beat 3-4 of them at St Louis, although I did have Perish. It's hard to lock us out of the game when we have 8 turn 1 outs to their control (vial, lackey). I'm 1-1 vs thopter=top, so I'm not sure what to say against that deck.
9 removal may be excessive. 7-8 may be a happy medium. It's a little more than the 6-7 average of past successful goblin decks, but the meta appears to be shifting more to aggro with the banning of mystical tutor, if even a little. It doesn't help that zoo has been putting up insane win %'s.
I took out sharpshooter before St Louis because I found myself not looking for him when he was in my MD... there was always something I wanted more. But when I sat across from a goblin player, I was afraid of seeing it. Call me paranoid, but I was waiting for him to either drop it and clear half my board, or vial it in after a couple guys took 1 and wipe my board. I found out he decided not to side it in (what?!?). Looking back on my pairings, it's questionable against decks like merfolk, but a definite in vs goblins. I'd much rather kill all their x/1 goblins than bounce one. I don't agree with ppl that main deck it though. Just 1 in the SB is probably enough to make it worth it. And if you want beats with sharpshooter, combine it with SCG sac'ing tokens. I've done that a couple times and did an extra couple points a turn with the sharpshooter. Yeah I know, it's situational.
You definitely should side it in for the mirror, that guy is crazy.
But from my testing of the mirror, the goblin I like the most is goblin chieftain. With an even board position he wins, with a winning board position the game will be over very fast, and with a losing board position he can help you block your way back into the game. I haven't tested enough to know if it suffers from "goblin king syndrome" in the mirror, which is where the opponent kills him after attackers/blockers are declared.
I was worried that my drawing on stingscourger would force a comparison between the two, but I was just looking for a card as an example of consistency.
I used to love sharpshooter pre-m10. I already have x4 pyrokinesis and x2 chieftain for the mirror so a 7th card mainly for goblins I don't really have space for. If you aren't playing pyrokinesis (basically, RB for perish instead) AND you are expecting goblins (or other x/1 decks), then yes I'd play 1 SB sharpshooter.
But for the current meta I'm not sure I really like perish over pyrokinesis. Or both? I don't know yet.
I'm also curious about countertop thopter? What people think of the matchup, our chances and best strategies? I don't play extended so I'm not really familiar yet with the intricacies of the mini-combo.
I've only played against it once, but like other control decks it has a hard time handling all the different ways we're able to throw damage at them and cheat things into play. I beat it game 1 by just overpowering him. Game 2 I sided in K-Grip which took out his Moat and he scooped. This deck is also why I've started running Leyline of the Void. It's hard to recurr a Sword of the Meek when it's removed from the game the first time you sack it.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoulQ
I am going to test the Countertop Thropter heavily Friday. I feel that sharpshooter should do good in the match by killing off tokens at will. Unless Countertop Thropter get Humility into play.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoulQ
Anarchy is a card that looks good but should have a hard time resolving it; due to the fact Countertop Thropter runs up to 4 spell with a casting cost of 4. Countertop Thropter can tutor them to the top of their library with Enlightened Tutor along with their normal library shenanigans and 7 or 8 counter magic.
Another thing to note is that Thopter Foundry produces "blue thopters" making Piledriver unblockable in the matchup.
I'll post my thoughts matchup Friday night or Saturday.
On a different note,is Landstill making a come back? Kyle Boggemes of SCG wrote about playing it in a legacy tournament. Guillaume Wafo-Tapa top 8ed Bazaar of Moxen IV in May with Landstill. Landstill has been doing very well on MTGO. Running cards like:
Pernicious Deed
Hydroblast
Engineered Plague
Should we be taking this information into our sideboard construction?
-Zay
Counter top Thopter is, imo, easy. Not a bye beause of Moat.
Theyre CB lock is even worse than a normal build against us.
Post sb it gets easier. Everyone plays something on the boards against them. Anarchy, REB, Sharpshooter, P. Needle... Even Crafter is good here, because of Moat. But good lists prefer humility.
I think is very hard for that deck to beat goblins.
Edit: Oh, and even Extirpate, to shuffle theyre library after a tutor, is sweet.
I actually bring it in against Merfolk because Kira, Great Glass-Spinner is a bitch to deal with. I also run a maindeck Lightning Crafter, which serves as my 8th removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Endril
So I will post my current list too. Not sure about the Gempalm yet, hardly missed one. Maybe Ill cut one Chieftain for some tests.
// Lands
3 [B] Badlands
2 [LRW] Auntie's Hovel
6 [BD] Mountain (2)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [6E] Swamp (3)
4 [MPR] Wasteland
2 [JGC] Wooded Foothills
// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
3 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [EVG] Goblin Warchief
4 [EVG] Goblin Matron
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
// Spells
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TE] Perish
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [MOR] Earwig Squad
What do you think about Earwig Squad? I think it's sick and worth playing main.Or am I wrong?
1. First off, I am well aware of the strategy behind fighting zoo. With that said, I think your seige-gang/warchief vs seige-gang/chieftain is irrevlavent since seige-gang with any goblin applies pressure. You simply mean that 2/2 goblin tokens are more scary than 1/1 goblin tokens but for what? I mean my 1/1 can block as many of those 3/3 cats as your 2/2's can. You are really adding nothing to the argument except for the fact that your 2/2's might do more damage which is pointless outside of the alpha turn. Outside of the alpha turn, I can still block and chuck with seige-gang. Not only that, I'm also more willing to since my goblins are only 1/1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelis
In this zoo vs goblin scenario war chief is always more threatening than chieftain precisely because of your reasoning. We ARE the CONTROL player needing card advantage and warchief helps with this better than chieftain since warchief makes it cost less while chieftain only gives you the false comfort of "bigger" creatures.
I don't see how more warchiefs is less consistant.. sorry.
There is never a play where I feel that walking into a daze was a smart thing. Goblins is about tempo and seriously.. walking into daze? Thats tempo loss. Is your argument to say that I should walk into a daze so my opponent has less countermagic because that is ridiculous. If you play around daze, that is already like he has less countermagic.
2. How can you not understand this point? Chieftain only gives +1/+1 when compared to warchief. That +1/+1 is irrelavent unless you are attacking. Don't tell me that +1/+1 is necessary for blocking because I can't think of any 1/1 that'll attack into goblins and I can't think of any 2/2 that I HAVE to block and kill. Anything bigger would just be chumped the same way. Warchief of the other hand makes everything cost less which is a huge tempo gain in a long drawn out game. We push for late game, that's what goblin does. Worst case scenario right? This is it. Warchief is your last tempo advantage when Lackey and vial are dead.
3. Oh.., oh no. Make no mistake about it. I'm not saying Chieftain is bad or that he shouldn't be in the deck all together. I just don't agree with your initial argument of why you have chieftain over warchief. I myself played a 4/2 and then a 4/4 split between the two Chiefs. I think chieftain is great even without war marshal. I just don't think the BEST play is turn 2 warmarshal followed by a turn 3 Chieftain.
4. That all depends on what deck I'm playing against. If it is a free path like you describe, I would rather play warchief turn 3 and swing for 4 so that next turn I can drop any 1cmc or 2cmc goblin, goblin matron for goblin piledriver and kill my opponent as opposed to drop chieftain turn 3 and swing for 6 and then next turn hope for the best for double piledriver or double war marshal. I can tutor out my kill condition, you cannot; so I don't know why you are talking about inconsistancies, because I think warchief and matron make a pretty consistant pairing.
It can be nice on 2nd turn to lackey him in, because of its body, but thats not what he is supposed to do. To really affect opponents plan, it is much to slow. I just run him once in the sb because he is nice to counter opponents sb plans midgame.Quote:
Originally Posted by all is dust
About the Warchief vs Chieftain debate. I first cut a Warchief, too. But he is superior to Chieftain thats for sure after testing. You always want a Warchief ingame to make sick turns possible. Matron on Pile for 3 and stuff
Hmm I dont agree with that part.Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
#1
SGC + Warchief: You can use one token to block one cat, true. As a result you lose one token.
SGC + Chieftain: You can use two tokens to block one cat. As a result you lose one token and he loses his cat.
The risky thing about this is, that he might burn you Chieftain, wich leaves you with the loss of 2 tokens instead of just one. But this sureley is situational, I don't think there is an overall answer.
#2
Running into Daze in early turns on purpose is a way to slow down your opponent! He will suffer much more from this loss of tempo than you do, cause he "misses" a land drop. The same thing is true for Path to exile in early turns: Your opponent donates you a land drop, which might help to jump over the weak cc2 slot and bring in Matron/Warchief t2 or even Ringleader t3. I think it takes more than one early daze or even FoW to slow Goblins down. I dont want to see my t1-Lackey being countered, but often times they have to either bounce a land or pitch a valuable card for FoW (and trade 2:1).
1.If that's your argument let me ease your mind. It's not that I don't intend to block because my creatures happen to be 2/2. And them being 2/2 are absolutely not irrelevant, see my point 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
You might be fooled into thinking I said that the deck is less inconsistent because I only run 2 Warchiefs and not 4. I was implying that running Chieftains make it more consistent than running Warchiefs only. That's different than saying more Warchiefs make the deck less consistent.
Playing around Daze can be tempo loss in certain situations. Look at this:
Let's say you have a only have a warchief and a ringleader in your hand and the rest is land and its turn 3.
You wouldn't play Warchief turn 3 because it could be dazed. So you wait a turn. That's 2 less damage if your opponent doesn't have a daze.
So on turn 4 you play Warchief because you expect an Daze.
On turn 5 you're ready to play Ringleader. (if you draw a piledriver of your Ringleader you wouldn't play it if I go by your reasoning)
So you have done 4 damage in total in 3 turns.
I play the warchief on turn 3. It isn't countered. Thats 2 damage done a turn earlier.
On turn 4 there's a very small chance that he's drawn a Daze but its not likely. Now I know I can play a ringleader draw some cards.
That's 4 damage done in 2 turns.
If my opponent has a Daze there's still benefits from having my creature Dazed:
If my opponent Dazes then I know he probably doesn't have one the following turn.
So I have actually more information than before. This means I can 'savely' play my Ringleader next turn.
I might've lost my creature but he's behind on landdrops (almost never a good thing for control)
If he doesn't have a Daze then there's benefits too:
I have done more damage if he doesn't have a Daze. Additional benefit is that I put pressure on my opponent which increases the chance of him making mistakes.
I have drawn goblins of my Ringleader 2 turns earlier. And I can still apply pressure of those drawn goblins the following turn.
If the Ringleader only hits lands than they are gone on my next draw while you would definitely be drawing lands 2 turns in a row.
You might gain tempo a few turns later if your Warchief sticks but you can never be sure of that because you've also given your opponent more outs. And you've put less pressure on your opponent.
2. Even in blocking vs Zoo 2/2's are better than 1/1's. What if you're attacked by a Cat and a Pridemage. You lose 2 1/1's and your opponent keeps his creatures. I can kill their Pridemage in the progress. Should my opponent have a burn spell for my Chieftain is stil not relevant because it would be the same situation if it would be a Warchief. I lose my Chieftain, you lose your Warchief, we both lose the other two blocking goblins.
But I also can block his Cat dead with two 2/2's if my opponent leaves his Pridemage behind and wants to attack with his cat only. (If he doesn't have burn mana open I'd definitely do that, if he does than probably not)
Again, my philosophy is that I rather have Chieftains early turns (for the reasons above) and that it is my opinion that a Warchief isn't needed until later on. That's why I run only two, I don't need them earlier.
3. Let me rephrase it a wee bit: I think a turn 2 Warmarshal is better followed by a Chieftain than a Warchief. (That doesn't mean I will always do so, it depends on the situation). Like I said before I might go for a 3/3 configuration in the future.
4. It's clear that we just have different philosophies about the early turns. I intend to do the same things you do with your Warchief but just not the first turns. I do those things after the first few turns when I've added pressure with War Marshals and Chieftain. Let my opponent deal with that first.
1. when fighting zoo, always expect removal. you just lost both tokensQuote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
2. yeah sure you get a land and "gain" a turn but you also lose your third turn so you broke even. You also lost a card that was valuable where as they lost a conditional counter spell which, by playing into it, you fulfilled.
1. I'm sorry, your scenario doesn't really make sense to me since its all damage based and that is all board dependant and removal dependant. I see that you are maximizing on damage outpout considering if there are no blockers but that doesn't happen in legacy. If there was a free lane, i'd drop all of my goblins too, but tempo isn't only about damage but about mana input, turn input and overall board position and against a deck packing daze, I think my board position is stronger if I have more goblins that stick rather than have less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelis
I think the beauty of goblins is, with any goblin and warchief and mana, we can apply pressure through the ability to explode, kinda like combo
EDITED NOTE: One more thing, a player that knows how to fight goblins and knows that you are walking into daze (sorry, that's a very strong player but it haappens) will know to let the chief go.. plow the chief.. and let you walk into the daze next turn (turn 4)
2. I don't think a zoo player will walk their pridemage into your 2/2 tokens unless they have removal, so in that scenario, I'm sure your chief and my chief would have both died. A decent zoo player would have attacked with only the 4/4 nacatl. How will you block it then? chump or gang?
3. I understand that. Your configuration makes sense if it is for the purpose of getting warchiefs later in the game. It is interesting in that sense.
4. Yeah, apparently you apply pressure with damage threats where as I apply pressure with sheer number of goblins. I think this is largely due to the fact that most of my opponents know how to fight goblins so they are simply scared of goblins where as your strategy might just scary everyone.