Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
After Fatal brought it up a few pages ago, I'm going to test the following list:
4 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phantasmal Image
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Vryn Wingmare
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
3rd Revoker could be the 4th StP, this is subject to change, same for the exact manabase distribution between fetches, duals and basics. I haven't taken a real look on the SB so far.
Image is a quite interesting card, but I need more playtesting to really judge it. Fiend Hunters might be SB material.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
After Fatal brought it up a few pages ago, I'm going to test the following list:
4 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phantasmal Image
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Vryn Wingmare
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
3rd Revoker could be the 4th StP, this is subject to change, same for the exact manabase distribution between fetches, duals and basics. I haven't taken a real look on the SB so far.
Image is a quite interesting card, but I need more playtesting to really judge it. Fiend Hunters might be SB material.
3 Images as the sole :u: seems... Not worth the added cost of running Tundra.
What about Meddling Mage?
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nevilshute
What about Meddling Mage?
Maybe dropping something like a Wingmare and a Image for 2 Meddling Mage?
Having Mage seems like big game against OmniTell hitting SnT, Miracles hitting Terminus, and can do some work against other combo or engine fueled decks - Dig, Loam, PFire, etc.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nevilshute
3 Images as the sole :u: seems... Not worth the added cost of running Tundra.
What about Meddling Mage?
It's 4 Images, not 3. And as I said, the manabase is just a rough draw - could easily be something like 3 Tundra/5 fetches. I would definitely try to go with 8 blue sources, though.
I'm aware of Medding Mage since Fatal's base list had 2 MD, but I don't think it's MD material. SB, yeah, that could work. But I haven't seen anybody running Pikula outside of SBs in a long time, probably with good reason.
Edit. For shit and giggles, I'm going to test this greedy monstrosity:
2 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Tundra
2 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
4 Mother of Runes
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
2 Vryn Wingmare
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Council's Judgment
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sudden Demise
1 Mirran Crusader
I also wonder how good Geist of Saint Traft would be as Recruiter target here.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Sorry for the double post, but since there is barely any discussion right now anyway, I'd like to throw this in:
I'm back to testing my Wg Noble Hierarch build. Exalted has been pretty excellent so far. While Wg has some attractive options that red lacks, it doesn't have the raw hate power the red splash could provide with Magus of the Moon and Sudden Demise. 3 colors at the same time are definitely undoable in D&T. However, what about a transformable sideboard? Theorycrafting lead me to this: (And before people ask, KotR and SDT are currently flexslots that need testing. They could be easily something else like other beaters, Wingmare, Teeg, Revoker or Pridemage.)
2 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard:
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
1 Plateau
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Sudden Demise
Before you wonder about the weird 1/1 Plateau split: Both the green and red splash require at least ~9 colored sources to operate smoothly. Since I already made heavy compromises with the SB, I don't have the space to put in a second Plateau. On the other hand, I don't want to go below two basics or duals for the respective splashes, hence the current split. If you decide to side out Hierarchs, the Plateau is also the standard 23rd land, bringing you back to 23 lands/15 white sources.
I admit it's very unconventional, but unlike the joke deck I've posted above, this is crazy enough that it might actually work. As long as you don't try to force tri-color post-board, you should be able to draw from the strength of either splash post-board, depending on the match-up.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Interesting list, but I see some glaring problems about that deck:
1. Hierarch doesn't add red mana for the Magus and especially Sudden Demise. KotR + Vial is not going to be enough to reliably drop them. I'd run BoP rather than Hierarch in that case, the bird also flies to get in for extra evasion. You lose the Exalted trigger but adding red mana is more important IMO since Magus is going to be relevant in a lot of matchups. You could take out the sideboard Plateau that way.
2. With a KotR kit and 25+ creatures I would want a Cradle somewhere in the mana base. Helps a lot with the 3 equipment and activating Top and Port.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
frenadol
Interesting list, but I see some glaring problems about that deck:
1. Hierarch doesn't add red mana for the Magus and especially Sudden Demise. KotR + Vial is not going to be enough to reliably drop them. I'd run BoP rather than Hierarch in that case, the bird also flies to get in for extra evasion. You lose the Exalted trigger but adding red mana is more important IMO since Magus is going to be relevant in a lot of matchups. You could take out the sideboard Plateau that way.
2. With a KotR kit and 25+ creatures I would want a Cradle somewhere in the mana base. Helps a lot with the 3 equipment and activating Top and Port.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
As long as you don't try to force tri-color post-board
1. Emphasize mine.
You don't run green alongside red. That's the whole point of being a transformable sideboard. You swap out one splash for the other. I'm currently testing Hierarch because it gives you a higher mana source density/accel without card disadvantage while the Exalted trigger makes even meek creatures into sizeable threats (instead of being another dead mana source draw). A 0/1 flyer by itself isn't too impressive until you slap a SoFaI on it. And fetching a green source to play a mana dork that can produce red seems like a questionable plan when you could just fetch a red source in the first place.
2. I'm not a fan of adding more off-color, potentially dead lands for 2 lousy KotR that might be changed into Wingmares if they fail to impress me.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
As you've said it's awkward to run manadorks that don't produce the colors of your deck, but it's also awkward to fetch color A to produce color B a turn later. This points to the idea that there's simply no way to effectively shove three colors into the 75, but I'll be interested to hear if something pans out.
I'd suggest replacing the maindeck Plateau with a Taiga, and Flooded Strand with Arid Mesa, to alleviate splash issues. Maybe add the 8th fetch to return to 23 land. Attempting a 22-card manabase with heavy color requirements and 8 brown land may be too greedy. Hierarch could become the land. You'd end up with better color support (14 land that can produce white, 11 that can produce green, 10 postboard that can produce red). The single color splashes have tried a single off-color basic. Again it's awkward when you draw that and two brown land, but at least this time it can be used to cast a Hierarch/BoP, and concessions must be made when you get this greedy.
You'll be right in the bullseye of anyone running Stifle, and will be further disadvantaged against Back to Basics, Price of Progress, etc. I'm really not convinced that the extra vulnerability and inconsistency is worth the added power, but it's an interesting idea.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kirbysdl
As you've said it's awkward to run manadorks that don't produce the colors of your deck, but it's also awkward to fetch color A to produce color B a turn later. This points to the idea that there's simply no way to effectively shove three colors into the 75, but I'll be interested to hear if something pans out.
I'd suggest replacing the maindeck Plateau with a Taiga, and Flooded Strand with Arid Mesa, to alleviate splash issues. Maybe add the 8th fetch to return to 23 land. Attempting a 22-card manabase with heavy color requirements and 8 brown land may be too greedy. Hierarch could become the land. You'd end up with better color support (14 land that can produce white, 11 that can produce green, 10 postboard that can produce red). The single color splashes have tried a single off-color basic. Again it's awkward when you draw that and two brown land, but at least this time it can be used to cast a Hierarch/BoP, and concessions must be made when you get this greedy.
You'll be right in the bullseye of anyone running Stifle, and will be further disadvantaged against Back to Basics, Price of Progress, etc. I'm really not convinced that the extra vulnerability and inconsistency is worth the added power, but it's an interesting idea.
Taiga in the MD does absolutely nothing as the deck runs zero red cards before boarding - it would simply be a nonbasic Forest. As for sideboarding, you might have a point, as there might be odd cases where you want Magus alongside green cards, e.g. Teeg, for specific match-ups. Swaping the SB Plateau for a Taiga is something I'll keep in mind, but I need to see more testing results before making any hasty decisions because that is really greedy.
That said, the 22-mana base with Hierarchs has been pretty smooth so far. Vial contributes a great deal to that. As it stands now, I don't see any reason to cut Hierarchs for more lands.
Yes, Stifle, B2B and PoP are going to hit hard, but their numbers are rather low in the general metagame. Blood Moon is also a thing and probably the most relevant. Hierarchs should help to migate some of the that damage, though. Be aware that the manabase isn't all too different from Imperial Taxes. The only thing they got going for them is 3 basics vs 2 basis here, which is only a minor difference with 7 fetches each.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I think that you should give a shot to Gaea's Cradle, as already suggested.
Since you like playing with mana dorks, I believe that you will no regret it. Your gW build has more mana and is one turn faster than standard mono W (one of the main reasons for playing the G spash, imho). Cradle helps you a lot at playing an equipment and equipping in the same turn and you will find this useful in many games.
I would try -2 top, -1 port, +1 KotR, +1 cradle, +1 G producing land (savannah, cavern of souls, canopy).
In particular, I would cut the 4th port in favour of a colored land because you have green 1 drop and 9 sources is really a low count (I believe that 11 green sources are required in this deck). KotR is good a finding ports when you need them :).
Finally, tops are really good at improving the consistence of the deck but I would cut them when testing the G splash. In fact, I suggest you to focus on evaluating green cards (KotR, ramp cards, bears, whatever you like) first. Then, when you are convinced of the green splash and once you have figured out the cards that you want, you could start toying with tops.
My 2 cents
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I cut the KotRs for 2 Wingmares (since I want immediate impact on the board instead of waiting for a turn; also 4 flyers aren't enough). Top is alright, but I'll try out a 3rd Wingmare and a 3rd Revoker in its slots instead and see how it goes.
Also trying out the Taiga in the board instead to Plateau.
If anybody wants to test KotRs with Cradle, feel free to do so. The more data, the better.
I still see no need to adjust the manabase. I haven't had much chance to test the red splash so far since I rarely had matches where it came up, but the green side is running like a charm. Vial acts technically as green mana source for all intents of purposes.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Hey everyone, I got to play my green splash (I posted it a couple pages ago) in a just-shy of 50 people tournament yesterday, and won the whole thing, going 4-1-1 in swiss and then crushing the top 8. I played against miracles 4 times (3 in swiss, and then again in finals). I'll give a more detailed report later, but I played:
Round 1: Mono W DnT 2-0
Round 2: Omni-show 0-2
Round 3: Miracles 2-1
Round 4: Dredge 2-1
Round 5: Miracles 2-0
Round 6: Miracles 1-1-1
Top 8:
Quarters: Merfolk: 2-1
Semis: Arbiter/Prison DnT: 2-0
Finals: Miracles: 2-0
All-in-all, I went 7-1-1 (15-6-1 games), and the list felt very strong. I tweaked the board a bit before the event, but I felt very ahead in most match-ups.
Also, if anyone has any interest, I'd be happy to post a tournament report I have.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Idk about these color splashes, guys.
I mean, I can see the merit of Meddling Mage/Gaddock Teeg/Magus and bomby shit like TNN and Recruiter, but is this really worth it at the end of the day? Like, where/when has the monowhite version really gone so wrong? I think we can either play better or find more unique solutions within the mono-color restraint.
My main is pretty stock. 4 Avenger, 2 Mangara, 2 Revoker and 2 Wingmare round out the flexes. This is my board right now:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
More dudes with useful abilities. Four outs, more or less, to Omni, and some decent hate against these Dig decks. Fiend Hunter is the only one I really question, but he's still an out to Emrakul. And, if you want to get cute with him (and I mean real cute), you can use him to keep one of your own creatures tucked away against Miracles.
I will say, however, that the red splash so far brings the most actual value to the table, via Recruiter. Until we see a properly color-shifted version of him, I feel like he is the only reason to splash (with Magus and Demise simply being icing on the cake).
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
Idk about these color splashes, guys.
Don't bother bringing it up, it's a lost cause.... Stick with the mono-white version (Recruiters aren't the easiest card to get). I Believe mono-white is still very solid and consistent, There may be a few bad matchups (very few in comparison to most decks) but intelligent play and knowledge of the matchup helps alot.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I feel like the recruiter $ has held this splash at bay for years, but it really does solve the deck's biggest problem (having basically no card selection). but it's very good and the full potential is still fairly unexplored - again, mostly just because people don't want to shell out for recruiters.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Has anyone accumulated much experience with Vryn Wingmare? My inclination is to think jamming 4 is correct and that's the version I currently have put together, but I haven't had the chance to play many test games yet.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
c2232
Don't bother bringing it up, it's a lost cause.... Stick with the mono-white version
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/t...?comment=12407
Yea, "lost cause". Very easy to dismiss something when you have no true knowledge of what you're doing with it.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cursecatcher
Has anyone accumulated much experience with Vryn Wingmare? My inclination is to think jamming 4 is correct and that's the version I currently have put together, but I haven't had the chance to play many test games yet.
This is my main right now:
4x Flickerwisp
4x Mother of Runes
4x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Vryn Wingmare
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Mangara of Corondor
4x AEther Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Horizon Canopy
4x Karakas
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
9x Snow-Covered Plains
I've found with my testing that Wingmare is... ok. Not terrible, just redundant--which is huge vs something like Delver where you want to keep its effect out and they are doing all the can to kill it. The loss of the revokers has be negligible; everything nowadays is spell-centric anyway, and he's pretty weak vs Miracles.
Ultimately, Wingmare flies and that is a big deal. When compared to its contemporary candidate in Aven Mindcensor, I think I'll take Wingmare almost any day.
But would I run four? No. The benefits don't outweigh the loss, especially if you are digging into the Avenger count (which should be four).
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
This is my main right now:
Looks pretty solid. I tested a four of and it seemed a little too much, I'm gonna try three but I'm sure I will end up at two. Now if your meta is nothing but miracles and modern decks I would strongly recommend the green splash, I have heard it does well in that meta.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Note about Blue splash on long term testing:
Maddling Mage is very, very good in current meta. Correct naming is key of this powerful card, it's like UW Cabal Therapy on legs. Specially from Vial. Miracle ability triggers so it gives window to use vial in response.
I cut 1 Phantasmal Image since it's not great vs heavy removal MU, it's dead draw from top and add 1 more MM.
Added Spell Pierce to SB add catch all answer.
