I'm hoping not, too. His comments are fairly petty and unnecessarily incendiary. I'm ridiculously proud of the community that we have built up on the Source, here -- hoping it's not one of ours =/Quote:
Originally Posted by jarvisyu
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I'm hoping not, too. His comments are fairly petty and unnecessarily incendiary. I'm ridiculously proud of the community that we have built up on the Source, here -- hoping it's not one of ours =/Quote:
Originally Posted by jarvisyu
I just now read all the comments in the blog. I understand now why you took me sharing it "for the lolz" that way. That was purely coincidence however and I assure you that I am not Mr. Anonymous. And I also certainly hope he isn't one of ours.Quote:
Originally Posted by jarvisyu
This is what I am currently trying. I will be afk for a few days so I post it now while it is not 100% complete yet. But I think I am far enough to post a competitive list.
It is different from most Nic Fit lists because it doesn't run any creatures except Explorer and Rector but with those two, Top, Therapy, Decay and Deed I still think this is enough Nic Fit to belong in this thread.
The deck focuses on Enchantments, Rector and Tokens instead of creatures and GSZ. The strengths of the Enchantments by themselves varies from strong to specialized but their main strength is their synergy with each other and with the rest of the deck. These synergies allow you to either lock your opponent out of the game or to bury him under card advantage.
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Scrubland
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector
4 Lingering Souls
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Innocent Blood
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Humility
1 Dovescape
1 Collective Blessing
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Faith's Fetters
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Rule of Law
SB: 1 Nevermore
Like with normal Nic Fit lists you win many games by simply killing everything the opponent has and then sticking something that he cannot deal with. Enchantments with CMC4 and greater are good at that because currently nobody can really kill them. Abrupt Decay doesn't quite do that. If the game doesn't go that way and you need to go bigger these are the synergies.
Synergies:
Humility + Lingering Souls / Assemble the Legion / PW Tokens
Collective Blessing + Lingering Souls / Assemble the Legion / PW Tokens
Dovescape + Abrupt Decay: makes tokens and the spell doesn't get countered
Dovescape + Rector: you can still resolve "spells" in the form of Rector while your opponent can't.
Cabal Therapy + Lingering Souls: a good way to use Therapy when you don't have the Explorer
Locks:
Humility + Curse of Death's Hold: A softlock (often hardlock) against most creature based decks. It can be a bit tricky to achieve because getting Humility first would turn off your Rectors and getting Curse first isn't always enough to live through the next turn. But fortunately you play a lot of Removal and you have Lingering Souls to prolong the games.
Dovescape + Curse of Death's Hold: A softlock (often hardlock) against most Control and Combo decks. Get the Dovescape out first, then your next Rector is guaranteed to resolve.
Rector targets on their own:
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Collective Blessing
1 Humility
1 Dovescape: Instantaneous one-card win against every Combo deck. It is bad against the majority of decks and gets sided out more often than not but when it is good it is both unbeatable and irreplaceable so it is worth the main deck slot.
1 Faith's Fetters: not sure about this but I like the life gain and the flexibility
1 Curse of Death's Hold: Usually you want this to seal the deal after you already have Humility or Dovescape. But it can be a great card against especially Dredge and Elves, but also against decks like Maverick, Death and Taxes or other token strategies (Lingering Souls, Young Pyromancer).
1 Assemble the Legion: Your tutorable win condition. It gives Control decks big trouble and overwhelms most things in the long run. I am not completely happy with it but there is no other useful Token producing Enchantment printed yet by WotC (Sacred Mesa dies to Abrupt Decay).
Weird, but cool. Have the Decays been sufficient to deal with DRS, or do you think you need Swords as well, perhaps (or at the point at which we're Nic Fit, Path, because they're getting their basics anyway and this list can't Swords its own shit to stay alive)?
I have 4 Deeds, 4 Decays and an Innocent Blood (+ another Blood in the SB) for Shaman and 4 Tops to find the answers. DR Shaman was a big concern and I feel well equipped to deal with him. Garruk can also kill it even though that isn't always optimal or fast enough.
If you want to know what keeps Nic Fit's reputation as a non-Legacy deck going, look no further than this thread. After 250 pages of discussion, the lists posted here have almost nothing in common. Most of them are extremely clunky and filled with win-more cards that will get the job done sub-optimally. As it stands now, Nic Fit is a metagame predator, nothing more. Turning it into a balanced deck against the entire field is a lost endeavor because it lacks the cards to do so. The deck requires a 2 card combo to even "begin" and the disparity in the mana curve is too high for the immediate results of the cards on the high end of said curve. For this deck to even begin to be consistent, it would require an amount of manipulation that would put the bluest of blue decks to shame. And yet, Brainstorm and Jace are barely seen here, instead we get lists with a bunch of non-green creatures. There are rules by which to build Nic Fit just like there are rules by which to build RUG. Every RUG deck begins with the same 54 cards and leaves design space for 6 cards in the main and 15 in the SB. Whatever you choose to fit in those slots has to be in line with the deck strategy.
I suggest that we stop fooling ourselves into thinking that Nic Fit's poor performance is due to the "pilot skills" or "deckbuilder skills" of everyone outside of our elite little circle of sourcers and start posting lists that have more in common than their heavy reliance on Explorer + Therapy and a high mana curve. We could try and make this deck as optimal and consistent as possible for a change.
Here's a start:
CORE and SYNERGY
4 Veteran Explorer
-Additional colors, mana sink, sacrifice outlets
(Deed, GSZ, Top, Manlands, Cabal Therapy, Innocent Blood, Diabolic Intent)
4 Cabal Therapy
-Hand information, sacrifice effects, free bodies
(Thoughtseize, Gitaxian Probe, Academy Rector, Witness, Baleful Strix, Coiling Oracle, Wall of Blossoms, Snapcaster)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
-Impactful green creatures, library manipulation
(Teeg, Ooze, Witness, Thrun/Sigarda, Top, Brainstorm, Jace)
4 Pernicious Deed
-Resillient permanents, Planeswalkers
(Explorer, Thrun, Top, Jace, Liliana, Garruk, Elspeth)
As a Legacy control deck, we need removal and disruption:
Innocent Blood
Swords to Plowshares
Lightning Bolt
Punishing Fire
Abrupt Decay
Maelstrom Pulse
Vindicate
Thoughtseize
Inquisition of Kozilek
Duress
And to glue it all together, we need manipulation and card quality:
Sensei's Divining Top
Brainstorm
Ponder
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Burning Wish
Living Wish
Birthing Pod
Balance the best cards with the most synergy and you have a basis for an argument on optimization and consistency.
I think that the Scapewish version has been pretty much finalized, and imho is the most optimal version for this metagame. With blasts and Slaughter Games the deck has as good a chance of taking down combo as any other version (except maybe a heavy blue durdly version with 15 sb slots dedicated to it)
Quick observation with your list Tao: your 2 creatures are both humans. 8 bodies might not be enough to consider a misers cavern of souls but it could be in consideration.
I hope you don't target my Rector list with that critique because it is pretty awesome.
But in general I agree that the thread isn't in top form. Here are my thoughts:
- the only three competitive archetypes at the moment are imo Scapewish, BUG and Punishing Nic Fit. All recent GB and GBw lists were simply inferior to these three. Of those three I don't like Scapewish too much because of the bad mana (too many lands) and the bad SB. I personally think BUG is the best version atm and it is very underplayed.
- instead of calling it "manipulation and card quality" you should say that the deck needs an engine. That way you can include Punishing Fire/Grove.
- I disagree that you can't build it so it is more than a Metagame predator. Same was said about Maverick and it is on top since forever.
@Conboy: Mana is too tight for that I think.
/Shrug. You can not like Scapewish all you want, but it puts up results =/
Also, I've long said from the very beginning the I respect everyones' rights to brew. In fact, that is arguably one of the things that I like the most about the archetype: everyone gets to be a deckbuilder. It is exactly the opposite of RUG Delver, where you get a whopping 6 cards wiggle room that you can actually customize. Each and every Nic Fit deck is a personalized reflection of its creator, and I find that to be a beautiful thing.
Now, I WILL agree that some versions are just straight-up better than others. For example, I do believe that there is an optimal version of, say, a Panoptic Mirror build, to quote my most horrible idea. The issue is that the best, most idealized list for Panoptic will never be as good as even an unrefined Scapewish/Punishing/BUG. At the same time, I don't believe that we've yet delved the depths of what the Nic Fit engines are capable of achieving. I firmly believe that there are probably another 2-3 versions that are as viable as the "big three" -- they just haven't been found yet.
Maybe it is finally time to split the thread up -- make a new Established thread with an updated primer (yes, yes, I know) specifically for BUG, Scape, and Punishing; and then also make a thread in Developing for "Nic Fit R&D." While I believe that there is intrinsic value in having all Nic Fit discussion in the same thread, it does admittedly have some problems....and the cracks in the model are, in fact, starting to show. I think that BUG, Scape, and Punishing can all reasonably coexist in the same thread...I don't think we need to pollute the Source that much, lol. But, yeah. Maybe a thread specifically to tune/perfect those 3 and another thread to specifically try to generate brews to add to their number is a good plan.
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Also, since you unveiled yours a little early, I'll join you in that venture. Here's what I've been working on for a while now, tentatively dubbed Thunian Fit.
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Varolz, Scar-Striped
2 Spike Feeder
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Academy Rector
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Primeval Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Living Wish
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Primeval Bounty
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
2 Phyrexian Tower
//SB
1 Viscera Seer
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Spike Feeder
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Angel of Despair
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Memoricide
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Batterskull
1 Nether Void
The basic premise is to take a rough Rector shell, cut out all the fluff and trim back on the Rector package, and then add in the Thune/Spike combo to give the deck a legitimate combo finish. Kitchen Finks is a solid guy in the shell, buying a lot of time and synergizing well with AAoT, Therapy, and Nightmare -- and at that point, literally all we need to add a secondary combo to the deck is a sac outlet (AAoT + Finks + sac outlet = infinite life + infinite of whatever effect you're saccing to. the +1/+1 counter from AAoT wipes out the -1/-1 from persist, allowing AAoT to act like a Melira).
Sticking points:
-) I want some number of Abrupt Decays or possibly Swords to Plowshares in the deck. Right now, it's sporting a grand total of 0 non-deed removal, and while admittedly the purpose of the deck is to go infinite and not care about their Goyf...some more early spot-defense would probably be a decent thing [of note, too, is that the AAoT/Spike combo does not care about DRS in the slightest, which I consider a strength).
-) I also want a Sylvan Safekeeper, because protecting the various bombs and combo pieces is pretty good. Sun Titan + Safekeeper is also hilarious. Good luck getting rid of that.
-) The sideboard is suuuuuuuuuuuuper rough right now. I can't make up my mind as far as quite how deep I want the wishboard to go. I know I'd rather have more actual sideboard than wishes, because this isn't a dedicated Wish deck. The Living Wishes are more to increase combo piece density than anything else, but at that point, you may as well run a few utility options as well, and then you start getting into trouble beyond that point. I will note that though Teeg is in the "wishable" section, he's actually to be boarded in, not Wished for [often anyway]. With Karakas and no planeswalkers, I feel less horrible about running Teeg alongside the 4-cmc+ hate (Memoricide, Void, Cranial, etc).
-) Primeval looks slightly weak, but he's unfortunately the best green-sunnable 6-drop bomb. Also, without Primeval, I'm unsure of how good the Karakas actually is. Sun Titan is still legit, but I can't figure out what (if anything) I want to pair him with. It may be that putting an Angel of Despair in maindeck alongside the one in the board would be correct. I don't really want to run Empath without a 2nd 6+ to tutor, but Sun Titan is too good not to run, IMO -- especially with this particular list's density at the 3-spot.
-) Option: raw-dog the Sun Titan, replace Empath with Diabolic Intent, replace the Primeval slot with Sylvan Safekeeper. Not sure if correct, but it's something I'm thinking about.
-) Varolz is here only as a sac-outlet. I don't foresee ever using his Scavenge ability. Unfortunately, the only other non-mana-requiring green-sunnable sac outlet is Scarland Thrinax, which requires red mana (mana cost = RGB). While Scarland's sacrifice ability is significantly more useful, being off-color is a deal-breaker. I also don't appreciate that Varolz is legendary, ergo Karakas-able if someone responds to Finks' persist trigger. Depending on whether I have the mana to recast Varolz or not, this may be a problem (and is another reason I want Safekeeper). Part of does want to include a Death's Shadow in the sideboard to Wish for, just to make Varolz actually do something. The better part of me realizes this is horrible, though, so I won't =)
-) It feels weird to build a Nic Fit list without a Thragtusk. But I'm not convinced that this version needs him -- Finks and Spike do the same thing, but for cheaper, and they combo whereas Tusk is just resilient.
-) I really want to call the deck either Angel: Season 6 (the combo being Angel and Spike does not escape my sense of amusement/buffy fandom); or else I want to call it I Wish I Had An Angel (because Nightwish). Both of these names will probably end up on a deck reg at some point, but will likely never make it to the internet.
I thought the Bounty trigger was more like Cascade, where the trigger resolves before the spell that was cast. I am far from the rules expert though, and unfortunately the M14 FAQ doesn't address this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I am excited to see energy going into a build w/ Collective Blessings + Lingering Souls though. I gave it a brief shot a few months ago, but didn't put a whole lot of time in.
I asked in the Rulings forum on Salvation. Hopefully some errant bored high-level judge will answer the question soon. I could honestly see it working either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by slikwilly
Edz: the response -- "The Primeval Bounty trigger will go on the stack on top of the Green Sun's Zenith. Since you must choose a target when the trigger is put on the stack there is no possible way to fetch a creature with GSZ and put the three +1/+1 counters on that creature with Primeval Bounty."
Unfortunate, but it makes sense. Testing will have to reveal whether this is actually an issue or not. My gut says Bounty is still fine even with this trick not working, but we'll see. I'm hoping to get some testing in between-rounds at prereleases this weekend.
Arianrhod I fail to see the added value of Academy Rector in the Archangel build.
Although I haven't tested the list or the Primeval Bounty as a card a gut feeling tells me that Primeval Bounty is just win more.
I just feel the list would be more streamlined without the Rector package eventhough that might worsen the combo matchup since you cant fetch the Nether Void anymore. You could either run some Decays of StP in the rector and Bounty spot.
Don't get me wrong... I do believe an Archangel has some serious potential but the Rector just feels out of place. In the original Rector list Rector was the focal point of the deck... now the focalpoint is Archangel (which is by itself pretty good) and the rectors are just nice but not stellar (as I would like her to be). Especially with the amount of DRS that's running around.
If I ever find the time I'm going to use your list as a startingpoint. :)
Entirely possible this is the case. At the point at which the deck already wants sac outlets, Nightmare, etc, it felt like a free package to add. I'm going to start testing with them in the deck, and pay especial attention to them as I go. They may well end up not surviving the first round of tweaks.Quote:
Originally Posted by XdeckX
People seem to be somewhat unimpressed with Nic Fit, and I think it's because it's a really, really fair deck. Maybe more of a fair deck than say maverick. Eschewing ScapeWish of course, the goal of Nic Fit seems to be:
1. run some interference
2. ramp some mana
3. land clock (in the form of creatures)
4. swing for a few turns.
Is this accurate? Is this reputation due to the somewhat weak early game? It seems that if we don't open up with Therapy the opponent is going to play in goldfish mode. As a Pox player who is admittedly a Nic Fit noob, I find the first turn is utterly essential to gain footing and prevent opponents from combo-ing, from Seizing you, etc. I posit that we need an increased amount of interference.
I am currently crafting a BGW list and I find it lacking in soft-locks that I feel are necessary to make it to the late game (which is where I'll be doing the winning, ideally). What sort of goodies can we employ to shut the opponent up, at least temporarily? I think the appeal of this deck to a Pox player is that the gameplan is almost opposite. Instead of killing your lands I'm gifting them to you. Ha!
How can we ensure that these gifted lands provide no advantage? What soft lock cards do we have access to? Are any one-sided? Let us pool ideas, yes?
Potential soft-lock pieces:
Trinisphere (admittedly weaker because we're bolstering their manabase, but still makes brainstorm, ponder, swords etc much less impressive. Our more expensive spells don't care though.)
Chalice of the Void (could be excellent with Explorer/Tower, but could suck when cast for 1.)
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (makes many of our spells cost more, but less of a problem for creature-heavy builds. MD storm-hate, helps in negating opp's land boost)
Etc.
In short, I find myself wanting more disruption.
Quick note between prereleases from testing. Primeval Bounty has overperformed insanely. Still not sure about the Rectors themselves, but dear god is Bounty strong.
I have nothing against Scapewish, I just think it deserves a thread of its own. Personally I think it is both a bad Nic Fit deck and a bad Valakut deck at the same time. It is by far one of the most inconsistent combo/control decks I have ever played with its extremely sketchy starting hands, lack of manipulation, and vulnerable combo. If I wanted to build a Legacy Scapeshift deck, I would look at a RUG colored deck with Brainstorm and Jace to reshuffle Valakuts, red sweepers and removal to use the heavy red manabase, and something along the lines of Exploration + Life from the Loam to generate card advantage and serious ramp.
I was turned to Nic Fit after a friend witnessed me abusing Deadbridge Chant in a standard match. He mentioned Recurring Nightmare and the shenanigans you could do. While I've played competitive Standard/Extended/Modern for some time I never got into Legacy until I moved and found a community for it. I currently play a GBW Rock/Good Stuff deck. To catch up I started over at MTG Salvation, which is where I was directed here. I then read everything since the beginning of the year. After all that reading, I have to say I agree with the post from Qweerios on why this deck under preforms . While I enjoy a good fun "kitchen table" brew, I'd prefer to fine tune a solid deck. Unfortunately, I think a lot of the last hundred pages or so were more of the former. (I'm looking at you Mirror and Navigator decks.)
The deck has a solid base to use, and I certainly think it can support a variety of brews; however, within each of those decks I think there should be somewhere around 50 cards we can agree upon. Scapewish lists seem the closest, BUG and Punishing Fit aren't to far behind. Though rarely seen, GB lists are fairly standard. Rector lists have a large variance, and I haven't seen a solid GBw build yet.
I think it's important to remember that just because we can cast expensive spells doesn't mean we have to chock full of them. I'd like to see builds that are more rounded. I don't buy into this deck just folding to combo, nor the idea of having an entire sideboard dedicated to beating combo. I think there is room to improve the match up within the first 60 cards, without sacrificing against fair decks.
There were a couple of cards I wanted to discuss as well. The first being Duplicant. It's a possible answer for nonwhite against Sneak and Show decks. You could can grab it via Fierce Empath, and it's easily hard casted.
The second card is Plow Under. It's one of my favorite unfun cards to play. People mentioned it as a Wish target over Ruination, and it was rightfully shot down. I think Plow Under could work in a GB or GBW Rock deck. With our ramp a turn three Plow Under is easily cast after the first two turns were Therapy, Explorer then flashback Therapy. With the recursion available in this deck we could cast it again and again to bury our opponents. I'm working on a build that uses it. I've not been unhappy to see it. Early on it can put you ahead for good. Later on it stalls your opponent. I'll keep testing and get back with the results.
I understand that this might sound ridiculous, but I wonder if a Scapeshift varient could be played solely in B/G, using Ob Nixilis instead of Valakut. It would also allow the deck to use Scapeshift for utility lands as well, as it could run Volrath's Stronghold, Phyrexian Tower, and Dust Bowl.
Even running Ob Nixilis without Scapeshift might have some value. The deck could gain a lot more value out of it's lands in the late game. Perhaps adopting the Burning Wish game plan, but subbing it for Living Wish with 4x Living Wish main, 3x Ob Nixilis main, 1x Ob Nixilis side?
If I'm in magical christmas land, please let me know :P
Sounds fun in theory, but I think the power of Scapeshift is it's essentially a one card combo (obviously not counting the mountains/valakuts). You only really need one Scape to win. For this to work with ol' Obby, he would have to be in play first. I don't know how frequently you can generate 9 mana in a single turn, but a combo that requires two turns to go off is casual magic. Especially considering he has no protection I would probably leave this idea in the annals.Quote:
Originally Posted by mini1337s