The more I play Meddling Mage in the board, the more convinced I am that it is the correct decision. It's so nice to be able to completely shut off force of will after they've sided all of their creature hate out.
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The more I play Meddling Mage in the board, the more convinced I am that it is the correct decision. It's so nice to be able to completely shut off force of will after they've sided all of their creature hate out.
In both my pure Ad Nauseam list and my hybrid Doomsday list I cut out Serenity completely, but I've also been running Duress + Pyroblast main as my protection suite (in some lists I keep Orim's Chant in the sideboard and some I do not). I'm at 16 lands right now and 2 Chrome Mox and the manabase has been stellar. There is ability to slow down to optimize against control and all of the speed is still there (in testing it seemed that for every game Chrome Mox allowed me to win turn 1 it threw me off 2 turns because it forced me to pitch something necessary). This has brought me towards a combination of Krosan Grip/Ancient Grudge/Slaughter Pact/H.Recall/ETruth/Rushing River/Wipe Away/Grapeshot in my sideboard to deal with problematic permanents.
I've noticed that a side effect of moving to the Duress/Pyroblast route is that your alternate win can become playing 2-3 Tendrils and just forcing an opponent into a counterwar. This has been highly effective in the 5-color Doomsday-less build with 4 Brainstorm/4 Top, and 2-3 Tendrils. Another side effect has been that in a UBRg build I can move from Delta/Strand to Delta/Mire and include basic Mountain. This isn't actually all that much of a loss for most builds as they play only a few blue cards (I'm running 8-10 preboard) and the ability to find Badlands 100% was critical for protection.
I wouldn't ever consider more than 2 Extirpate. I currently run 1 and it's primarily a tutor target against blue-based control. I don't think I'd ever want to see 2 of them (even against Ichorid because we win so fast).
emidln:
How many Ad Nauseams and Doomsdays do you run each in your Hybrid? I'm currently running one each, but I feel like maybe adding a couple more of either, but not both, so as to be either 3x Ad Nauseam or 3x Doomsday, and 1x of the other. Which, if any, do you think works better, since you are the premier authority on Fetchland-based Tendrils decks?
I like Meddling Mage also. I tried it in FDDT, and I like it, but my metagame doesn't call for it.
Also, 4x AdN is unneccesary and tantamount to overkill. 3 might even be too much. I'm testing 2, and while I don't really win turn one very much, I go off turn 2 protected VERY often.
I use Tops. Tops work, tops are good.
Emidln: I haven't been using red disruption as it's almost useless against other combo and Dragon Stompy, which is what my meta consists of. I'd like to see your list, but most importantly, your mana base for the red, most preferrably both your 4-c doomsday list, and then the 5-c Ad Nauseam Doomsday-less list.
Pce,
--DC
My first reaction to Meddling Mage was, "Good Idea". But after thinking about it, he's not that easy to cast, especially vs decks running Wasteland (Tempo Thresh, Dreadstill). All he's really going to be chanting is FoW anyway. Chant does a perfectly good job at stopping FoW, as does Abeyance, which is one, easier to cast than MM, and two, terrible. the only point in MMs favor is that it beats face, but so does Dark Confidant.
I'd test MM, but I traded my set. Dark Confidant seems like the best choice if we're going to run a creature.
When we originally suggested MM for DDFT it was because we had 16-18 lands and wanted something that could deal with both Force of Will and Counterbalance. Chant didn't actually do all of that. Now, we still played it alongside Chant, but it wasn't necessarily meant to try to be played against Tempo Thresh. (I certainly never boarded it in.) I was playing it against CB Thresh and Landstill mostly (and it kinda sucked vs Landstill) leading me to testing other stuff like Pyroblast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
On the subject of Pyroblast, Pyroblast counters Brainstorm, Mystical Tutor, and Ponder. That's actually all the reason I need to play it. If all my Pyroblasts ever do is counter Brainstorm or Mystical Tutor, I'm very happy. It's obviously not Orim's Chant in the combo matchup, but it's a lot better than Orim's Chant in the more prevelant blue-based aggro-control matchup, nearly as good against Ichorid, and will randomly beat aggro decks relying on misc Stifles and Meddling Mages. If you are seeing a lot of other fast combo you should probably have Orim's Chant in the sb anyway. In other matchups, Chant is about as dead as Pyroblast. Granted, it sometimes *might* take away Extirpate (but you don't care in AdN) and it could stall for a turn against an aggro deck (but all aggro decks run Wasteland + other LD seemingly) so you're probably going to end up short on the WW end anyway. I honestly never found that its dead weight was a drawback because when it was dead I could win easily no matter what that slot was (Tarpan/Mountain Goat/Moonlace/etc).
I've been experimenting with the number of business spells in my hybrids. I've gone as low as 11 business (1 AdN, 1 Doomsday, 1 IGG, 1 Meditate, 2 IT, 4 Mystical Tutor, 1 Tendrils) but it didn't quite feel right. I think I'd want an additional Ad Nauseam (they're usually better than Doomsday unless you're facing something with a lot of disruption) or Infernal Tutor maindeck to go to at least 12 business and I'm currently sideboarding 1-2 Doomsday for matchups where I don't want to be an Ad Nauseam deck. Preboard, being an Ad Nauseam deck with a Doomsday/Infernal Tutor backup plan is _probably_ better than being a Doomsday deck with an Ad Nauseam backup plan, but I don't yet have enough data to give that statement weight.
When I've been playing red, my manabase has almost always been this (16 lands):
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
In the 5c build, it's been:
-1 Mire
-1 Mountain
+1 Scrubland
+1 Tundra
SB: +1 Mountain
Black/Red fetching is more important when your primary protection consists of Pyroblast and Duress.
This is a question for the hybrid AN/DD players: Is there a reason to still run Slaughter Pact in the place of Massacre? Some few reasons come to my mind:
- Gaddock is easily answerable through SB Helm+Grapeshot in a Doomsday pile.
- Magus of the Moon is not an issue comparing to the DD FT lists, since this thing runs 4 Petals and 2+ Moxen.
- Multiple Meddling Mages/True Believers/Glowriders/whatever are answered by Massacre, while not by Pact. The variety of bounce+removal doesn't remove the inevitability of the opponent getting rid of them.
- This won't work with Gaddock + Mage, but does it ever happen? Anyway, the alternative here remains to bounce Mage and ignore Teeg with Doomsday.
Slaughter Pact makes the Meditate/LED/LED/Removal/Tendrils pile still cost 2U which is great when you can't actually setup Helm+Grapeshot for whatever reason. Additionally, the Top/Brainstorm/LED/LED/IGG/Tendrils pile can sub in a Slaughter Pact for free if you have any of those cards in hand already (in addition to the 2 + Top/Brainstorm) and still win for like 1U against Teeg. Pact costing 0 compared to 4 off Ad Nauseam is also nice for the games where you don't have to resort to Doomsday because you go off on turn 1-2 before anything came down. Being an instant to answer random stuff has also come up in misc games. Besides, if an opponent does get down multiple hate bears, you can always Grapeshot them away or sometimes even Slaughter Pact only 1 and ignore the rest. The issue of multiple hate bears doesn't even happen as often as it did to DDFT because the hybrid plays more acceleration and can goldfish at a faster rate (even with Doomsday ignoring 1+ bears).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
3U you mean? You still need to be able to play Top or you are never drawing that Tendrils.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Err yeah, 3U. I need to do some actual testing vs Teeg to determine if Slaughter Pact is worth boarding in for just Teeg because with as much accel as the lists play the difference between 3U and 4U might not be as much as I originally though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
How about the hybrid list skeleton? I kinda can't figure out the minimum requirements for running Doomsday and the full 8 protection package. The first list I tested was more into the DDFT side, with 0 Infernal, 2 Cabal, 2 AN, 1 DD, 4 Top, 2 Ponder, 2 Mox, 15 lands and the usual cards. I feel like maybe fitting in a 16th land, but that makes me want to cut Top, which is bad for every purpose other than racing Belcher. WTB tips for a list that goldfishes turn 2 almost always, or I'd simply play DDFT for that turn 3 kill.
You lose 4 life by revealing Massacre with AN. Thats the reason why I play Pact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
With a Teeg out on the table, you're able to play Massacre? What?
With Gaddock out on the table, I'm able to play Doomsday and win anyway. Where did someone say Gaddock is Massacrable?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
You asked if there was a reason to play Slaughter Pact over Massacre. I gave a scenario where Massacre would be dead (because of Teeg), forcing you to alter your path to victory.
Altering your path to victory isn't really that much of a big deal, since you're almost always required to do that in every game. Besides, they were discussing Pact/Massacre in AN/DD hybrids which run Helm of Awakening / Grapeshot, which would render Meddling Mages and Gaddock Teegs useless.
Ah, sorry. I took his statement out of context then. I thought it was just a general quetion, not situation specific.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
I saw a few posts about working around Gaddock by throwing in Doomsday. I think it's pretty brilliant. I think the card is underplayed. I have an idea, a hybrid with some possibilities:
Lands
4 [U] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [WL] Gemstone Mine
Creatures
2 [ALA] Etherium Sculptor
Spells
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [7E] Duress
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [DM] Dark Ritual
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
1 [SC] Brain Freeze
1 [WL] Doomsday
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
3 [FUT] Pact of Negation
3 [SOK] Ideas Unbound
I think Brain Freeze is a better kill option than Empty the Warrens, mellowing out the colors and not ruining you for the Nauseam. It also gets under Teeg and Runed Halo.
Etherium Sculptor is worse than Helm of Awakening because it eats STP and doesn't lower Cabal Rit/Grapeshot/Tendrils. For that matter, Brain Freeze is worse than Grapeshot because it doesn't actually kill the opponent and isn't removal. You need 4x Top. To play 4x Top you need at least 14 lands (that's probably even too light because I hate being at 15 and usually run 16 in Ad Nauseam builds).
We don't actually run Helm+Grapeshot maindeck because it just wastes slots. It's a sideboard option for when you need it vs Meddling Mage or Teeg. Meditate is better than Ideas Unbound in Doomsday piles (specifically because it lets you win without passing the turn into lethal piles with less mana).
WOW! I can't believe my eyes....At the begining of this thread you guys all said (when I mentioned throwing a doomsday or too into the deck) that that was stupid. What gives? A nobody like me mentions it and its awful now all of a sudden its clever? My feelings are hurt.