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I'm a little less blase about this. More hate is more hate, and it's one more thing I have to consider when building my sideboard. I don't know about you, but my sideboard is already a little stretched because of the wishboard and hate for merfolk, hatebears, reanimator and artifacts like chalice. I didn't run Chains of vapor.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonBarber
I run chains maindeck, and have echoing truth, wipe away, and eye of nowhere on my sb. Bounce targets are not a big deal for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by LostButSeeking
Ummmm seriously? What deck will run that card? Enchantress maybe? Nothing else. It will be played in decks without countermagic just like mindbreak trap so it will probably be very easy to fight through. Maybe if someone tailored their SB only to beat combo and nothing else something along the lines of:
4 Sanctity Leyline
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Spell Pierce
3 Ethersworn Canonist
Then it would be hard to win for us but as is no one is expecting combo with mystical gone so they won't devote that many slots to the combo MU. I'm not scared of that card personally and canonist is a lot more worrisome since it provides a clock and costs 2.
Editted for truth
Nobody will play that white Leyline except the noobs that don't know that a mulligan to 4 against TES is a game loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
What are your guys ideas about Perish in the board? Would it be better as Pyroclasm?
Here is my current sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
2 Shattering Spree
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Perish/Clasm/Deathmark?
1 Wipe Away
1 ETW
1 IGG
1 Diminishing Returns
Also, what do you guys really feel about Wipe Away? I'm not so sure about this slot either...
Thanks!
Deathmark seems better than clasm and perish since it costs 1 mana to cast and does everything those other two are designed to do and more. Perish doesn't work against some hate bears such as meddling mage or ethersworn canonist and is therefore terrible along with costing 3 mana being quite a lot. Pyroclasm doesn't kill everything and can get spell snare'd whereas deathmark is simply great. And pyroclasm slowing aggro down isn't really an argument since that MU should be a bye with this deck since you simply storm out and win.
A mulligan to 4 against TES would be a game loss most likely for any deck except for lands where if you go tons of goblin tokens turn 1 only to have them play a tabernacle you are blown out with one land on board.
Also magicplaya your SB is kind of awkward with one ofs in the form of k grips, wipe away's, echoing truths, and chain of vapors. We no longer have mystical tutor so having one ofs doesn't cut it when it comes to finding them reliably post board. I suggest upping the count of k grips and wipe aways because they are the most resilient answers to CB apart from pyroblast on CT.
I think this is what my sideboard looks like right now except instead of chain of vapors I play thoughtseize, but I find I have too many cards to bring in against CBT, so I usually just bring in 1x kgrip, 1x wipeaway and 2x pyroblast.Quote:
Originally Posted by magicplaya10
So deathmark instead? I want to try and make it a 2-of at least then. What else should be cut?
Yea I know, a lot of 1-ofs. I'm trying to cut it down. Maybe cut a chain of vapor? I play TPS in vintage, and Chain is nuts there, so I was thinking it could be the same concept..
Thanks!
I think pyroblast #3 is really the only thing you can move.. Bryant played with 2 and it was fine..
I main chain of vapors.. so...
Yeah, Zoo is a bye, right Bryant? =PQuote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
Hello Bryant, now that we do not have mystical why do you play cards like
1 Wipeaway
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
in the side?
it seems not efficient having 1 of, at least if it would be sorcerys....
What would you put insead Empty the warrens?
maybe it's tiem to go back to D.Confidants...
All new opening post.
-Information.
-Decklist.
-Sample hands.
-Sample hands for you.
-Sideboarding.
-Match-ups.
-Reports/Articles.
I think you should check again the OP because there are some contradictions. In some points, you're still talking aout the list with SSGs. In my opinion , you should also put some brief examples where, given an initial hand and a hypothetical deck you're playing against, you examine which should be the correct play. Because there's a huge difference between goldfishing a combo deck and playing it against an opponent who puts a clock, hate cards, or disruption, and this is enormusly true for TES which has the wider decision tree among all the combo decks in the format.
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I'd like also to know what you're used to do when you open double-tutor hand, precisely something like this:
Dark ritual, Rite of flame, Burning Wish, Burning Wish, Mox, Duress, USea.
Next card drawn: fetchland.
I've examined the possibilities, and I thought this:
-if we're playing against a blue deck/slow, non-aggro deck, we could:
-t1 duress.
-t2 fetch, Mox pitching Wish, ritual, rite, wish for Etw creating 10 tokens.
My main concern here, though, is that I'm not a big fan of Empty the Warrens when I know that the opponent might play mass removal ala EE/Firespout, or just recover the race with a single War Monk blocking (attack, go to 10, he plays RWM, you attack, he blocks one and goes to 13 then 4, he drops a goyf, you attack with 9 tokens..oh wait, that could work). Bant, Landstill and New Horizons fall under this category. Merfolk is doable, instead (forgiving Echoing Truth ).
Then, if I'm not opting for the EtW plan, what could I grab with those Wishes?
If i want, let's say, to go Ad Nauseam, I could:
-t1 land, mox imprinting Wish, Wish for Infernal.
-t2 pass, or play Duress hoping to draw another mana source the turn after.
-t3 and so: it depends on what you draw.
-Turn x: go all in for Infernal on Ad Nauseam. Of course this gets worse as the turns pass because a single duress could not be enough for a double counter/ double fow+blue pitch.
What against aggro, instead? How would you play it? Let's assume we're on the draw against an unknown opponent. He goes taiga, Nacatl. We draw the fetchland. Which are our options now?
-We could produce 10 tokens, but to me EtW<12 is suboptimal against Zoo (on the draw), given mot of their lists play a bunch of big 1 drops that makes it easy to recover from some 1/1s.
-Again, we could Wish for Infernal on t1, then try to go all-in on t2 starting from at least 16 (Nacatl beats+fetch). This i risky because Hellbent could be stopped from a "wrong" card drawn (Chant, Tendrils, EtW, and such).
Is there something else I'm missing? Maybe against Zoo the correct play would be to go t1 wish for IGG. Given we don't draw a mana source, we'd go like this:
-t1 land go,
-t2 fetchland (2 lands), mox imprinting Duress, rite, ritual, igg, discard (2nd) Wish and card drawn for the turn. 1 red mana left.
bring back rite, ritual and Wish. Tap Mox for B, rite, ritual, only 5 mana avaiable, fail.
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About the Mystical replacements. I've seen you've moved the 4th Infernal maindeck, ass well as a 4th chant. I've tested and goldfished the deck a lot with 4 that configuration, and even played a tournament. From my experience, I can say that:
- The 4th Infernal to me should belong to the sideboard, because there are times when you can't grab a strong engine piece via Burning Wish + spare B/R rituals (Diminishing depends on LED given the 2 U in the casting cost, IGG requires a Infernal in the yard and does not work using -a single-Wish; Etw is bad against aggro in a small/medium storm qty), and what you need is Infernal to go off the turn after. This has happened to me 2 times. Also, I've drawn more than one time a hand with 3 mixed tutors and Wishes, and it was incredibly slow and dificult to come out from that.
- The newer manabase configuration with 4 fetchland can't really afford a full set of chants, because now it's more emphasized on the Fetchlands+Duals part, while the rainbow one got weakened. So, it often happens that you lead only with fetchlands or duals, and you draw a Chant with the impossibility to cast it from permanent sources, or even worse, with it clogging your Infernal tutor Hellbent. This has happened to me 3-4 times, and from then I'm playing 3 Chants and I'm fine. I've also founded, contrarily to my previous beliefs (see immediately-after Mystical ban posts), that 7 is the right quantity of protection spells for this deck, with the 8th being tied on Chain of Vapor because it's such an amazing storm engine with 4 petals and 4 moxes, grows Empty the Warrens really well, and allows for a quick Gaddok Teeg out since g1, as well as being way superior against aggro than Chant.
In fact, opening with double chant or topdecking one against aggro made me really upset because it was half a dead card; an effective timewalk, but nothing more. It's also more difficult now to kicker Chant, so it's pretty meh.
I think this protection package, even without the 4th chant, is effective enough against blue decks, since the deck is fast and can win out of 1 protection+ storm chain in the first turns. 8 3-per-1 cantrips, still, allow to find the desired Chant or Duress pretty effectively.
Also, 8 protections sometimes make you draw 2 or 3 in the opening, causing a mulligan unless being against Landstill. The deck still wants to retain its fluidity.
What could be the 59th and the 60th card, then? My vote goes on 2 Pre Ordain, or 1 Pre Ordain/14th land. I'm unsure on the 14th land, even If i'm currently playing it (a second Volcanic to power up red and Spree) because sometimes I really get land-heavy hands (3 or 4, or topdeck more). But i believe we should refer to tournament situations, now goldfish ones, when the opponent is denial'ing you with Wasteland and Stifle. Here the 14th land is really golden. Bryant, any experience against someone heavily destroying your mana (Team America, New Horizons)?
2 additional cantrips may slightly slow the deck, but they could give even more flexibility. Test will tell;aatm I can't find better replacements. As i've said, in my opinion the 4th Infernal and Chant are not good, or not good enough to stay MD.
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Some observations, for those who care:
-Diminishing returns is a fantastic piece of engine, not only a "oh shit button". There have been times when I willingfully DR'ed even with no mana left just to give me a new hand. One could argue that it's a stupid move to do if you can't win that same turn because you're giving your opponent 7 new cards, too, but sometimes I've found that , if you already have on the field 2-3 lands, you can fight against blue decks really well (given the absence of Cb), even if they got 7 new potential troubles. Againt tempo decks, unless they're already ahead on the race or destroying all your lands via Wasteland+Knight, TES still has a pretty good window of winning the protection war and going off, as long as it manages to keep its mana "large".
Of course, Returns is godly against discard-heavy junk (which pour up regularly here), as well as Dredge (another popular local archetype). I think I'll keep it in the sideboard from now on, seeing how half of my wins against aggro came from that even in desperate situations.
-Now perhaps I'm seeing why this deck really needs 4 Moxes. Explosive acceleration, as well as feeding the main storm engines really well, are what this deck needs. We can't dilute it towards more ANTish lists, because this deck works differently from ANT.
So I'll go up to 4. Topdecking double Mox or drawing 2, as well as worsening the mulligans, is a risk I'm willing to run if their presence improve Returns and Ad Nauseam that much (you can go off from like 8 and still not killing yourself). Also, Mox works as a nice color fixer, especially in tutor-heavy hands, and takes off the crap to give Infernal Hellbent.
It's a two year old post, there's bound to be a few mistakes. I'll look for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
They are sample hands. Don't take them this seriously. They're for beginners looking on what to expect for a feel of the deck. If you'll notice there's a sample hand for each engine/storm card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
I would rather Warrens then have a turn 4 unprotected Nauseam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
I've tested and played in events with my list too. I did quite well. I'd rather have the spare sideboard space making Infernal a wish target post-board. I hardly ever wished for it when it was in the sideboard, I don't understand why everyone feels the need that they have to win with Ad Nauseam all the time. Ill-Gotten Gains and Diminishing Returns will get you there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
Oh yes, because we cut Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal from the deck too? The deck doesn't have problems making off color mana. I think this is a silly argument from someone who just doesn't like my changes. It's not like the manabase is all fetches and duals with a singleton Tundra. It still has six 5c lands and 4 Lotus Petal/4 Chrome Mox, we can cast 3 Chants just as effectively as we can cast 4. Chain of Vapor is not the answer we're looking for, there's no reason whatsoever, to play a maindeck bounce spell. We have zero ways of finding it and it'd be too random. The chances of you having Chain and a permanant that need to be bounced game one are very slim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
Are we really playing Orim's Chant for the kicker? Let's be honest here. Not to mention the 4th Chant effect that I added doesn't have Kicker. Don't use this as an excuse.
I disagree with Pre Ordain and the 14th land. We play Gemstone mine, going up to 9/10 cantrips becomes dangerous and bad for the deck. It wastes away counters and we don't want to spend our entire early game cantripping up until turn 3-4. This isn't Threshold. The 14th land isn't needed, I often find myself flooded with 13, you don't want to make the deck be unable to go Hellbent because of lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
My last report, I played against both Team America and New Horizons. I beat a blue deck every round, up until top 4.
I don't disagree with anything here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
The Problem Ive had with Wish->Ill Gotten is that, since Wish removes itself, you need to hold IT or another Bwish to win with that. So, without IT in the sideboard, you´re oftentimes forced to go via DReturns which fizzles in 70% of the times I cast it :/ But nothing can stop me from taking TES to the next tournament because I just love the way it looks :)
Most of the time that I use Wish-> IGG, I've infernalled for a second Dark Ritual/Rite of Flame/Lion's Eye Diamond. With the extra Infernal maindeck, the chances of having 1 of each also goes up. ;pQuote:
Originally Posted by NQN
I find it hard to believe that your fizzle rate is 70%, because mines not even 30%.
Drifting from the Chant and Infernal issue, for which time and testing and tournaments will tell..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I've noticed a little thing here.
-Against Chalice Aggro and Goblins, do you side all the solutions in and leave anything in the sideboard as a wishable solution? This sounds strange to me, because Wish makes you virtually play 4x of a single solution, even if it's slow. Do you think it's more valuable to increase the chances to draw a Shattering Spree rather than Wish for it? If so, Wish only becomes "only" a storm engine fetcher post-side.
-Against Reanimator, similarly, no solution to be wished? I now Iona will name black 95% of the times, but it seems risky to me. Don't forget that Iona also gives a speed clock and they have lots of disruption, it may be good to leave something in the sideboard.
-Against Zoo, the wishable solution to Gaddock is Grapeshot. Never found yourself lacking the artifact to cast it for 2, or with it being too mana intensive? I did.
-As I perhaps already told one year ago or so, against Ichorid leaving Chants in is better than taking them out and leaving Duress. Duress is not going to take anything relevant if not a draw spell, and sometimes it's even an advantage for then if they have spare DReturns or Bridges rotting in their hand and they don't have a discard outlet. I'd rather take out the Duresses and put the Blasts in, as well as the Echoing Truth.
About Shattering Spree: no Ichorid build plays Cotv in side anymore. They don't fear the storm combo matchup anymore. They don't even play Nullrods, and, even if they did, they would have to mull for it a lot, probably, decreasing their combo chances. They pack Nature's Claim and/or Chain of Vapor on default. I think they're more used to board in Terastodon or Ancestor's Chosen against storm combo.
-Against Ichorid and Aggro (Goblins and Zoo): is it worth to leave Empty the Warrens in? Ichorid can race it pretty quickly. Zoo and Goblins maybe do with slightly more dificulty, but if it's past turn 2/3, it becomes pretty useless. Lack of anything better to side in?
I really don't think that your fizzle rate is 70% also. I never really use Returns that much but I'm with Bryant on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I made a mistake. I leave one Spree in the sideboard versus Goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
I've been considering Eye of Nowhere over Echoing Truth/Chain of Vapor, I'm not sure if this is worth it. I need to test more before I add it to my list. As for Teeg, I've never had the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
We can still agree to disagree. I will board out Chant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
As for Spree, players in my area still play Chalice in Ichorid. I've seen it at large events too. I'm not taking the chance. Lack of anything better really.
Round 1 vs Ninja Faeries
Game one: I have a nuts hand and am on the draw. He plays vial and passes. I play lotus petal dark ritual duress he has nothing then i go off with infernal for ad nauseum then tendrils him out.
Sideboard: +3 Pyroblast -1 duress -1 Chrome Mox -1 Silence
Game two: He plays island and passes I duress turn one and take force of will. He plays goyf. I play ponder and pass with it set up for next turn. He swings plays land and passes. I duress and combo out he has one more counterspell but i pyroblast it.
Round 2 vs Alluren with force, daze, chant and mage
Game One: I mull to five and never find a Burning Wish or Infernal Tutor. He plays turn 3 alluren and has recruiter, of course my top card is burning wish.
Sideboard: -1 mox -1 ponder -1 empty +3 Pyroblast
Game Two: Duress turn one he has a force and i take it. He plays the fetch that he top decks and I combo out the next turn.
Game Three: I mull to 5 again because i have no bussiness or disruption in my first two hands. He starts off really slow so he must have disrution but when i silence him turn 3 he doesn't do anything and I beat him easily with ad nauseum, Turns out he had no white for meddling mage.
Round 3 vs New Horizons
Game one: I go all in one a turn one empty the warrens for 14 on turn one with silence back up on the draw. He draws and plays engineered explosives on 0 and that is pretty much the game. He only has 2 in the deck so i thought it was a good shot that he wouldn't have it.
Sideboard: -1 empty the warrens -2 chrome mox - 1 ponder +3 pyroblast +1 thoughtseize
Game Two: I duress him turn one with the go off on turn two hand. He has Force of will times 3 daze ponder and stifle. I was like hmm well at least he doesn't have pressure but he draws a goyf a turn later and i dont have time to find enough cards to get through all that hate.
Round 4 vs Goblins
Game one: Finally a bye match-up!!!! He plays turn one lackey and I draw LED and kill him through ad nauseum turn one.
-1 empty the warrens +1 Ill-gotten gains
Game Two: This time he gets two turns and I win through Ill-gotten Gains loop.
Top 8 Vs New Horizons
Game one: This is the same guy (Troy Thompson) that i played in round 3 and we joke about how I will go for Empty the Warrens turn one again and he wont have the E.E. this time. That is exactly what happens I Duress him and he doesn't have it and i empty for 14. He has two draws and doesn't find E.E.
Sideboarding: same as round 3
Game Two: I set up for 2 turns with brainstorms. He just plays lands. Turn 3 after my draw he plays Vedillion Clique I only have Infernal Tutor as my win condition so i Pyroblast the v. clique. I draw thoughtsieze and see that he has another v. clique double stifle force of will and knight of the reliquary, I take the v. clique. I draws plays a land that he drew giving him four lands and plays knight of the reliquary. I am one mana short of going off the next turn so i pass it back to him. He wastes one of my lands then plays goyf, another top deck. I brainstorm eot into double lotus petal and dark ritual I put back a usless duress, as i have silence and pyroblast, and a land. I play rite of flame silence he forces pitching stifle and i play pyroblast then i play the rest of my hand out and infernal tutor for tendrils which is exactly enough to kill him.
We split top 4.
This is the list I was playing
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 LED
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Silence
4 Duress
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseum
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Blue Fetches
Sideboard
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrills of Agony
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Thoughtseize
1 Shattering Spree
1 Diminishing Returns
1 IGGY
1 Grapeshot
2 Krosan Grip
2 Echoing Truth
3 Pyroblast
I think after i played it i think i wanna take the empty of the main and play Ill-gotten gains instead other than that i really really liked how the deck preformed. I played ANT for a very long time and solidarity and Iggy pop before that so i have a good handle on combo but please let me know if you think i made any play errors or boarding errors please.