[Deck] The Gate

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Originally Posted by コーヒー

Would running Tombstalker in low quantities here really be a sin?

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I think you should go back and read carefully at several other comments and concerns people had about Tombstalker. To reiterate: It is terrible here. You run no fetches, no acceleration in the form of Dark Ritual to power it out, and it deals an excessive amount of damage to you off Dark Confidant (double that of Persecutor). Tombstalker is ridiculously slow, does not trample, and provides zero synergy with Spinning Darkness.

Hello and im sorry for my english im a big fan of black control and mighty queen to , hollywood just a idea , keep on deck faery macabre
-3 death mark - 4 duress
+4 Thoughtseize +1 bitterblossom +2 swoord of light and shadow

u are switching duress to another creature removal if it is needed ,( i have played wolled day vs goblings and merfolks ) of course i did that with out side but them are still a bad pairing with a vial , many tricks to stop us on removal , and u are still keeping the dures ofensive , i am playing 3 biteblossom at the moment and i am in love with them and the 2 swords extras give us many tricks with gate keeper faerys and a clealy ventage with the vampire 4/5 fliying life link death touch and sword special powers , its just an idea i will apreciate some response :) thanks

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

Soul Spike

This seems to be the card where the most speculation dwells. I think it is imperative people understand the explosive nature behind Storm-based combo decks that can just win at any given time. The Gate runs a good portion of disruption, so keeping an opponent from killing you for a turn or two is an acceptable means to aggressively irritate their strategy early in the game. Let's assume you defeat combo the first game with your proactive discard, and you are ready to proceed to the sideboard.

Against Ad Nauseam, on the draw, you are looking dead in the water. Combo is an extraordinarily difficult match to deal with on the draw because now you are allowing the player to Brainstorm or cantrip before you have an opportunity to discard the meat of their hand. When they do this, they can go off in a hurry without any problems. Allow me to cite a specific example from my first round, second game match against Bryant Cook at Jupiter Games' Anniversary event:

Bryant ends up "going off" turn two, when I have no way of stopping him at this point. Let me say that again: No way. Aside from discard, there really is no other way to stun the combo player as you purposely run no acceleration. So, while the combo player is going off, there is a very realistic possibility they will stop at four life or less. The reason for this is due to the inclusion of key cards like Tendrils of Agony, Empty the Warrens, or Ill-Gotten Gains.

Notice the cost of each of those cards.

Storm combo players have a tendency to stop at or near that life total because they fear flipping to their death. I have played countless matches against Bryant where he stops at four or less life. There's no reason not to; they need those cards in order to kill you. So once they decide to cast an acceleration spell or a win condition, you respond by killing them. If a Storm player stops at five life and Empties the Warrens, then that is unfortunate. In that case, there is nothing you'd be able to do anyway, because having them create a million Goblins is going to be hard for anyone to deal with turn two. But, this gives us a legitimate out against them when they do drop to a life total of four or lower and can kill them in response to anything they play.

Remember, you're also gaining four life to potentially cripple them from expending what the have on a storm count of ten or eleven because you gain life as well. Off Ad Nauseam, they are only gaining back what they lost with Tendrils, so recuperating and coming back offensively to kill them is not entirely impossible; I've done it.

The card is also not useless against Zoo; you're giving yourself an opportunity to gain life at a point in the game where losing life becomes more and more dangerous. You're also doing damage at the same time. Spinning Darkness does this (essentially) for free as well, and is a little more reasonable in the cost. You would also want to remove Dark Confidant straight-up for Spinning Darkness against Zoo games two and three. I learned from my match in the Top Four by not siding correctly (I kept Dark Confidant in). Do not keep Dark Confidant in except against Storm with Soul Spike coming in. It is worth taking the risk trying to net more cards while attempting to kill them unknowingly.

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As combo player myself, I do not entirely agree with the above. If you go off with Ad Nauseam you will stop when you have the kill (initial mana sources, mana and tutor/tendrils) that can sometimes be at 4 life or less, it can sometimes be at 15 life. If you don't reveal everything you need, you will stop whenever the chance of flipping something that will kill you is high and that will often be around 5 or 4 life (because of Tendrils, EtW, IGG or a 2nd AdN) and then try to find your missing piece(s) with cantrips.
This suggests to me that Soul Spike is a verry narrow and situational card with which you might surprise the unexpected combo player every now and then but I would much rather play a card which is much less situational. I think we can often slow them down a bit with our discard suite, if we can follow that up with Thorn and a decent clock, we should have a chance.
Also boarding out Confidant to bring in 2 Soul Spike seems awful, Bob can draw you into more discard and threats (and hate if you play any) which can win this matchup.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

I know I am going to be questioned for this, but I am seriously considering going with four Faerie Macabre in the sideboard, which would mean this for the main build...

-2 Faerie Macabre.

...and substituting this in its place:

+1 Bitterblossom.
+1 Swamp.

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I like this suggestion a lot. Faerie Macabre has its use in a lot of matchups, however it often is 'just' a neat combat trick while Bitterblossom can absolutely swing games. I had been considering upping the count to 3 as well. I also think the extra swamp is needed.

I'll also play Pithing Needle in the side as I think we need a way to deal with Planeswalkers and Survival.

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Originally Posted by ZZZ

As combo player myself, I do not entirely agree with the above. If you go off with Ad Nauseam you will stop when you have the kill (initial mana sources, mana and tutor/tendrils) that can sometimes be at 4 life or less, it can sometimes be at 15 life. If you don't reveal everything you need, you will stop whenever the chance of flipping something that will kill you is high and that will often be around 5 or 4 life (because of Tendrils, EtW, IGG or a 2nd AdN) and then try to find your missing piece(s) with cantrips.
This suggests to me that Soul Spike is a verry narrow and situational card with which you might surprise the unexpected combo player every now and then but I would much rather play a card which is much less situational. I think we can often slow them down a bit with our discard suite, if we can follow that up with Thorn and a decent clock, we should have a chance.
Also boarding out Confidant to bring in 2 Soul Spike seems awful, Bob can draw you into more discard and threats (and hate if you play any) which can win this matchup.

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Thorn of Amethyst shuts down your single-cost removal and forces you to have mana readily available in addition to casting creatures the very same turn. it sets you back just as much as it could set the combo player back, because unlike combo, this deck itself also requires all mana readily available to be more proactive than reactive, which Thorn is not (it is a stationary tool used as a stall tactic that allows the storm combo player to build cards in their hands, which is extraordinarily bad). Soul Spike is a multifaceted, proactive card that goes right for the throat against the combo player.

I have played combo extensively myself over the years, and I will agree with you that in fact the Storm combo player will stop with Ad Nauseam once they reach a respectable amount of acceleration, tutor spells, and draw (or cantrip). But thinking logically here for one second: If I were playing Storm and my opponent is on the draw and plays a Swamp and passes the turn, I'm going to laugh in his face while I proceed to (as Bryant Cook puts it), "Jerk off in their face." There is a healthy chance that the Storm combo player will drop to a relatively low life total ensuring they have the right cards to secure the victory. And because we do not run acceleration, every land counts where you can get it (as that was how the deck was designed).

Soul Spike is very effective and has several important uses. Thorn is really only good in decks using accelerants to play non-creature spells themselves and that just isn't good in a deck that needs those cards to keep you in the game.

It seems like relying on your opponent "Jerking off in your face" by going down lower than 5 when they could have won already (which is actually just poor play on their part), is the definition of greedy. Plus it does very little against non ad-naeseum combo decks. To me the whole idea of using Soul Spike is just too cute and that slot could be used for more effective cards.

I think you dismiss Thorn of Amethyst too easily Vs storm. Cmc 2 means that you can play your T1 discard spell, then throw down the Thorn. While it does turn your duress's into 2 mana spells and Hymns into 3 mana, making them pay 1 for Mox/Petal and neutering all of their rituals and doubling the cost of their one mana cantrips is really crippling. Though obv bounce mitigates its effectivness somewhat.

ANT and storm decks in generally are still a pretty mall part of the meta, so with the growing interest in show and tell/doomsday/sneak attack decks, I think running more hand disruption in the board would be preferable to running narrow answers like Spike and Thorn.

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Originally Posted by Wakkarr

It seems like relying on your opponent "Jerking off in your face" by going down lower than 5 when they could have won already (which is actually just poor play on their part), is the definition of greedy. Plus it does very little against non ad-naeseum combo decks. To me the whole idea of using Soul Spike is just too cute and that slot could be used for more effective cards.

I think you dismiss Thorn of Amethyst too easily Vs storm. Cmc 2 means that you can play your T1 discard spell, then throw down the Thorn. While it does turn your duress's into 2 mana spells and Hymns into 3 mana, making them pay 1 for Mox/Petal and neutering all of their rituals and doubling the cost of their one mana cantrips is really crippling. Though obv bounce mitigates its effectivness somewhat.

ANT and storm decks in generally are still a pretty mall part of the meta, so with the growing interest in show and tell/doomsday/sneak attack decks, I think running more hand disruption in the board would be preferable to running narrow answers like Spike and Thorn.

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The deck already runs:

a. Hymn to Tourach (3)
b. Duress (4)
c. Cabal Therapy (3)
d. Flashback-Therapy (3)

That's potentially thirteen ways this deck can hit an opponent's hand. Spending too many slots in the sideboard on more discard is just overkill and would really just bog the deck and its subsequent boarding strategy down. The discard aspect of the deck has been woven into the fabric of removal and creatures just perfectly; there is no reason to press the issue and waste slots in that respect.

Sneak Attack-based decks have little credibility in the format right now. First off, Show and Tell is an absolute joke; the deck runs four Gatekeeper of Malakir and four Innocent Blood. Assuming you don't discard their piece before they play it, those creatures will hardly even be a problem. The aforementioned do the job more than enough.

For reference; my Top Eight match against Sneak Attack/Show and Tell.

The deck doesn't require any acceleration, and therefore relies solely on lands as the primary source of casting spells. We don't need to set ourselves back in the process by setting ourselves back turns where we cannot play cards in our hand. I'm not looking to take myself down in the process with my opponent. The goal here is to win and win fast. The deck already plays enough discard and that is not a valid excuse to continue to run more cards in the sideboard that only stall the game on both sides and disallow you from playing the cards purposely set in the deck for to begin with against that match.

Soul Spike has already been tested enough and it has been proven effective in several key match-ups, including Zoo and Burn. I've done enough testing with it to realize its maximum potential, and is has been magnificent when I needed it. Thorn is a card - again - utilized in decks that have enough acceleration to generate its own threats, which is not how this deck functions. The trade-off is not worth it in the end, because all you're doing is stalling them a turn or two before they are able to drop L.E.D.'s or artifact mana and allow them to go off shortly thereafter.

I don't think I can ever get behind a card that relies on your opponent to take himself down to 4 life when there's a very good chance he can win before that a lot of the time.

Anyway, Hollywood you mentioned you're considering moving the Faerie Macabres to the side to make room for a swamp and a Bitterblossom and to put some Pithing Needles in the side, can I ask you what your sideboard would look like then?

Thx

There's always Sadistic Sacrament, right?

I don't think SadSac is an option without Dark Ritual and most storm combo decks play Burning Wish nowadays...

While I am not 100% behind Soul Spike, it at bare minimum forces your opponent to storm out for 2 more than normal. Against the average storm player you're putting up quite a hurdle.

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

There's always Sadistic Sacrament, right?

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It would usually be several turns too late to be relevant. If you have 3 turns then your other disruption should have put you well ahead already.

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Originally Posted by ZZZ

I don't think I can ever get behind a card that relies on your opponent to take himself down to 4 life when there's a very good chance he can win before that a lot of the time.

Anyway, Hollywood you mentioned you're considering moving the Faerie Macabres to the side to make room for a swamp and a Bitterblossom and to put some Pithing Needles in the side, can I ask you what your sideboard would look like then?

Thx

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As of right now, I am testing several different sideboards and seeing how they work. Here are a few for reference:

//Sideboard [1]

[4x] Spinning Darkness
[3x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Soul Spike
[3x] Dystopia
[2x] Sword of Light and Shadow

As you can see, this sideboard is predicated largely on focusing on gaining life and maintaining a solid grip on the Zoo match-up, while focusing a little bit on the combo match with Faerie Macabre and Soul Spike, respectively.


//Sideboard [2]

[3x] Spinning Darkness
[3x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Sadistic Sacrament
[3x] Dystopia
[2x] Pithing Needle
[1x] Hymn to Tourach

This sideboard I've been testing focuses more on the control match by adding in another Hymn to Tourach and a pair of Needles. Sadistic Sacrament is there in an attempt to cripple slower combo decks (like Sneak Attack) and even Survival of the Fittest. Dystopia more often than not does the trick against Survival, but Eternal Witness at times can be a pain.


//Sideboard [3]

[4x] Soul Spike
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Spinning Darkness
[3x] Dystopia
[1x] Hymn to Tourach

I've looked at this sideboard as being more stringent and cut and dry towards specific match-ups against decks using the graveyard as a primary catalyst, while "gunning for blood" against Storm combo by adding a full set of Soul Spike in addition to Hymn to Tourach.

As far as which sideboard I currently play, I have been running the first one since moving Faerie Macabre to the sideboard and freeing up space in the main build. It seems to be nicely balanced and rounded out. The second one, however, has some great appeal to me. I am interested in further testing the control match and seeing how that goes. Sadistic Sacrament (believe it or not) is actually really good against control. You're able to remove up to three copies of Jace, Standstill, etc., while crippling a specific function of their deck.

EDIT: Updated original post for reference.

What´s about adding Aether Vial? The creatures cc look great for it. Only the Gatekeeper sucks with it...

How much would a single Volrath's Stronghold affect this deck negatively? Apart from gaining a very miniscule weakness to Wasteland and Gatekeeper losing a tiny percentage of consistency, I don't see how it can't benefit the deck more than hurt it.

I think this deck is amazing and it's really good for anybody that wants to start legacy. I mean some of the cards already see play from standard and the transition will be less backbreaking. I like that =)

I think you should seriously reconsider Leyline of the Void in the sideboard. Faerie does have it's advantages in being a body and therefore being less of a dead draw late in the game, but Leyline absolutely steals games from so many decks in the format. Obvious benefits are against Madness, Reanimator, and Dredge, but it also cripples Lands, Aggro Loam, New Horizons/Thresh, IGG-based combo, and even Zoo (goyf, KotR, Lavamancer). I've been running it in my SB for some time now, and it's a. not that hard to get in your opening hand, and b. able to steal rounds, not just games.

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Originally Posted by linux-ll-

What´s about adding Aether Vial? The creatures cc look great for it. Only the Gatekeeper sucks with it...

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I can't think of a single card that I'd want to cut for Vial. This deck is not looking to keep mana up on an opponent's turn anyway.

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Originally Posted by dtrooper

How much would a single Volrath's Stronghold affect this deck negatively? Apart from gaining a very miniscule weakness to Wasteland and Gatekeeper losing a tiny percentage of consistency, I don't see how it can't benefit the deck more than hurt it.

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Not much, but I would have a hard time fitting it in. Thing is I just made space for a 17th Swamp (after a lot of games looking for that 3rd black source) and Stronghold would need to be in addition to that. I would probably work in a Phyrexian Tower before Stronghold since it can speed you up if you have to IB away your only creature (or sac a Bob or Persecutor).

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Originally Posted by EssKay

I think you should seriously reconsider Leyline of the Void in the sideboard. Faerie does have it's advantages in being a body and therefore being less of a dead draw late in the game, but Leyline absolutely steals games from so many decks in the format. Obvious benefits are against Madness, Reanimator, and Dredge, but it also cripples Lands, Aggro Loam, New Horizons/Thresh, IGG-based combo, and even Zoo (goyf, KotR, Lavamancer). I've been running it in my SB for some time now, and it's a. not that hard to get in your opening hand, and b. able to steal rounds, not just games.

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I would love to have Leyline in the board and I've considered it a lot. My problem is that Faerie is notably better in the increasingly common Landstill match-up. Running both does not seem reasonable as neither is particularly good against combo.

Versus NewHorizon, T hresh and Lands Leyline of the Void worked better than McFaery for me.
But ur right, vs Landstill ur better off having another beater

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Originally Posted by sporenfrosch1411

Versus NewHorizon, T hresh and Lands Leyline of the Void worked better than McFaery for me.
But ur right, vs Landstill ur better off having another beater

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I agree, and I do not like the Lands match-up. Fortunately the cost of Tabernacle is prohibitive.

Leyline is really amazing in our SB. Well - a lot of decks usw leyline which alone is a good card, but together with our discard the leylines are so difficult to handle for the opps.
And the leyline protects us not only from loam, madness, ichorid, etc - no in addition it gives us a protection against the new zoos iona/retainer action.

I don't yet own Abyssal Persecutors so I've built a Gate-ish deck that splashes green for Tarmogoyf.

How do you guys feel the Merfolk matchup is game 1, and how do you guys sideboard against Merfolk? I got rocked 2-0 by Merfolk in a small tourney this week, so I'm looking into what I can do to shore up that matchup.