[Deck] Elves Combo

One of the reasons I've recently started to play Living Wish > Summoner's Pact is for easy access to Masticore from the sidelines. It works kinda well, since paying 1G for Gaea's Cradle or 1GG for an untapper midcombo is still enough to generally keep the engine going, and it allows easy access to other situationally powerful cards such as Emrakul, Zealot, Viridian Shaman etc etc. The only strictly necessary sideboard cards in my experience are Krosan Grip and Relic of Progenitus to fight locks and recursion engines respectively (as long as you are prepared to sacrifice the Storm matchup) which leaves plenty of room for a wishboard.

Current list for reference; still not decided whether I should run the 3rd Ranger or 4th Symbiote sideboarded, but Ranger is generally more useful in the starting hand as opposed to the midgame and it ups the elfcount some more for Messenger. Viridian Shaman is also not strictly needed what with Zealot but there are quite the few decks that rely enough on artifacts that the recursive nature of it becomes relevant, but it remains a flex-slot nonetheless. Could be Elvish Champion or the 4th Relic or whatever.

// Lands
15 [TE] Forest
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Elvish Visionary
4 [WWK] Joraga Warcaller
4 [EVG] Sylvan Messenger
3 [10E] Llanowar Elves
4 [MOR] Heritage Druid
4 [FNM] Priest of Titania
4 [M10] Elvish Archdruid
3 [EVG] Wirewood Symbiote
3 [DM] Fyndhorn Elves
3 [VI] Quirion Ranger

// Spells
4 [CHK] Glimpse of Nature
2 [LG] Concordant Crossroads
2 [JU] Living Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
SB: 1 [EVG] Wirewood Symbiote
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 [DS] Viridian Zealot
SB: 1 [UD] Masticore
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [FD] Eternal Witness
SB: 1 [MR] Viridian Shaman

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Originally Posted by Infinitium

One of the reasons I've recently started to play Living Wish > Summoner's Pact is for easy access to Masticore from the sidelines. It works kinda well, since paying 1G for Gaea's Cradle or 1GG for an untapper midcombo is still enough to generally keep the engine going, and it allows easy access to other situationally powerful cards such as Emrakul, Zealot, Viridian Shaman etc etc. The only strictly necessary sideboard cards in my experience are Krosan Grip and Relic of Progenitus to fight locks and recursion engines respectively (as long as you are prepared to sacrifice the Storm matchup) which leaves plenty of room for a wishboard.

Current list for reference; still not decided whether I should run the 3rd Ranger or 4th Symbiote sideboarded, but Ranger is generally more useful in the starting hand as opposed to the midgame and it ups the elfcount some more for Messenger. Viridian Shaman is also not strictly needed what with Zealot but there are quite the few decks that rely enough on artifacts that the recursive nature of it becomes relevant, but it remains a flex-slot nonetheless. Could be Elvish Champion or the 4th Relic or whatever.

// Lands
15 [TE] Forest
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Elvish Visionary
4 [WWK] Joraga Warcaller
4 [EVG] Sylvan Messenger
3 [10E] Llanowar Elves
4 [MOR] Heritage Druid
4 [FNM] Priest of Titania
4 [M10] Elvish Archdruid
3 [EVG] Wirewood Symbiote
3 [DM] Fyndhorn Elves
3 [VI] Quirion Ranger

// Spells
4 [CHK] Glimpse of Nature
2 [LG] Concordant Crossroads
2 [JU] Living Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
SB: 1 [EVG] Wirewood Symbiote
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 [DS] Viridian Zealot
SB: 1 [UD] Masticore
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [FD] Eternal Witness
SB: 1 [MR] Viridian Shaman

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If you are going for combo the idea of your deck should be to maximize the chance of the combo succeeding once it is started. I.E. have as many one drop creatures in the deck as possible.

Right now you have 24 non-creature cards (without any fetch lands at that). Since summoner's pact is, in nearly every respect, a creature card (and literally every respect when comboing) I have 18 non-creature cards in my deck, and fetch lands to thin out the land count. This may not seem like a big difference, but trust me, it is.

I see the point about getting the mana boost with living wish, but in all my experience with this deck the mana is almost never the problem (if you play enough one drops), it's having enough one drops to keep glimpse going. Living wish slows the combo down in this respect.

Also, your average casting cost is high with the creatures you are running. Messenger is 4 mana, the priests are 2 mana, you run one extra archdruid which I am not sure is a good idea, and all this at the expense of running the 4th one drop for llanowar, symbiote, fyndorn, and quirion

So? I will still win if I resolve Glimpse with a mana engine on board. I still have an uninterrupted turn 3 goldfish. I have a dislike for the glass cannon builds since they rely on Glimpse too much for my liking, and unlike (faster) decks like SI/Belcher the only decks that cannot feasibly disrupt it can race it (except maybe Ichorid, but then again they are liable to have darkblast postside so yeah).

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Originally Posted by Infinitium

So? I will still win if I resolve Glimpse with a mana engine on board. I still have an uninterrupted turn 3 goldfish. I have a dislike for the glass cannon builds since they rely on Glimpse too much for my liking, and unlike (faster) decks like SI/Belcher the only decks that cannot feasibly disrupt it can race it (except maybe Ichorid, but then again they are liable to have darkblast postside so yeah).

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It is true that Storm/belcher decks can race my build, but they can certainly race yours as well since yours is just a slower (but possibly slightly more consistent) version of mine.

The thing is that while glimpse is obviously the focus, because of the low mana cost of the elves, if you have a lord in hand you can drop your hand turn two and then play the lord turn three swinging for 10 or so. Also, summoning regal force is a very viable option as well. All a wishboard does is give you extra mana, which you shouldn't need considering you are playing elves, and artifact enchantment destruction game 1, which is not important.

It's just straight math, you want to maximize the number of creatures you can play, and keep their mana cost as low as possible. That is by mathematical definition the best way to use glimpse.

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It is true that Storm/belcher decks can race my build, but they can certainly race yours as well since yours is just a slower (but possibly slightly more consistent) version of mine.

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My point is that decks using Glimpse as their main draw engine will never (with the current cardpool) be as fast as dedicated storm decks, hence building them for speed rather than resilience will just make them compete for an overall design space already taken by faster decks. Also the fact that that goldfish is disrupted by ubiquitous 1cc removal somewhat talks against it. I don't think a straight comparison between our decks is really bringing anything to the argument btw, seeing as I play what is essentially a tribal aggro deck with an overabundance of card advantage engines (and the hardiness versus control elements that come with them) and the ability to win the game on the spot starting from turn 2 and onward (with or without Glimpse of Nature).

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The thing is that while glimpse is obviously the focus, because of the low mana cost of the elves, if you have a lord in hand you can drop your hand turn two and then play the lord turn three swinging for 10 or so. Also, summoning regal force is a very viable option as well. All a wishboard does is give you extra mana, which you shouldn't need considering you are playing elves, and artifact enchantment destruction game 1, which is not important.

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Also: protection, card advantage, creature removal, Emrakul and actually being castable from a less-than-winning board position without risking losing the game by default. Also artifact/enchantment removal unimportant? I could name quite the few cards seeing maindeck play that would beg to differ, but the burden of proof really is on you here.

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It's just straight math, you want to maximize the number of creatures you can play, and keep their mana cost as low as possible. That is by mathematical definition the best way to use glimpse.

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Have fun proving it. In any case I can assert from empirical observation that the deck I posted above is perfectly able to maintain a Glimpse chain for long enough to win the game in the vast majority of cases.

I am with Infinitium. your deck needs to win through resistance. I play alot of combo elves in legacy and my best and most consistant finishes come from slightly slower but more consistant builds. I am running this currently:

4 nettle
4 heritage
4 llanowar
3 fyndhorn
1 quirion ranger
4 wirewood symbiote
3 Elvish visionary
1 viridian zealot
4 fauna shaman
3 Elvish Archdruid

1 summoner's pact
4 natural order
4 glimpse of nature
1 progenitus
1 emrakul
1 regal force

1 cradle
7 fetch lands
8 forest
1 savannah (teeg and other white in the board)

its slower but more consistant. I am not sure living wish is the way to go, natural order is both a 4 mana regal force and a progenitus if you need it to be. the deck makes up for the higher cc of its cards by not needing to go nearly infinite when comboing off. once you hit 15 mana you just tutor emrakul out and kill them.

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Originally Posted by Infinitium

My point is that decks using Glimpse as their main draw engine will never (with the current cardpool) be as fast as dedicated storm decks, hence building them for speed rather than resilience will just make them compete for an overall design space already taken by faster decks. Also the fact that that goldfish is disrupted by ubiquitous 1cc removal somewhat talks against it. I don't think a straight comparison between our decks is really bringing anything to the argument btw, seeing as I play what is essentially a tribal aggro deck with an overabundance of card advantage engines (and the hardiness versus control elements that come with them) and the ability to win the game on the spot starting from turn 2 and onward (with or without Glimpse of Nature).



Also: protection, card advantage, creature removal, Emrakul and actually being castable from a less-than-winning board position without risking losing the game by default. Also artifact/enchantment removal unimportant? I could name quite the few cards seeing maindeck play that would beg to differ, but the burden of proof really is on you here.



Have fun proving it. In any case I can assert from empirical observation that the deck I posted above is perfectly able to maintain a Glimpse chain for long enough to win the game in the vast majority of cases.

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I'll grant you that we play two different decks. But as for linking to a mathematical proof, I am an undergraduate math/philosophy double major with a theorem already in my name, so thank you, but I know what a mathematical proof is. If you actually want me to, I can actually write out a formal proof showing you why my build uses glimpse in the most efficient way possible given the current available card choices, since I used analysis and topology to determine the card choice for my build, but I have a feeling it would be a bit over the head of anyone without a degree in theoretical mathematics (I am not saying this to put anyone down I am just saying this because it would literally sound foreign to anyone that does not know the termenology).

Also, the storm point is really irrelevant since the point of the deck is not to be the fastest out there, but to be nearly as fast as storm with a waaaay better backup plan. Saying that I shouldn't go for speed since storm is the fastest is like saying no deck that isn't completely focused on control should bother playing counterspells since landstill already does it well. It's just not a logical argument at all.


Also note: since I do study Math and Philosophy I hope you can tell that I really like to argue and I hope I am not coming off as aggressive or anything, I really enjoy debate! Especially with people who make good points, like yourselves.

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I'll grant you that we play two different decks. But as for linking to a mathematical proof, I am an undergraduate math/philosophy double major with a theorem already in my name, so thank you, but I know what a mathematical proof is. If you actually want me to, I can actually write out a formal proof showing you why my build uses glimpse in the most efficient way possible given the current available card choices, since I used analysis and topology to determine the card choice for my build, but I have a feeling it would be a bit over the head of anyone without a degree in theoretical mathematics (I am not saying this to put anyone down I am just saying this because it would literally sound foreign to anyone that does not know the termenology).

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I wasn't aware of that, and it certainly does take most of the sting out that little piece of sarcasm. Still, I'll hold to that point as I am sceptical that any deck can be solved mathematically with the number of unknown variables within any single match. How do you define efficiency and what premises did you use for the proof? Granted I know precious little about mathematics but I feel as if we're trying to argue different things here.

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Also, the storm point is really irrelevant since the point of the deck is not to be the fastest out there, but to be nearly as fast as storm with a waaaay better backup plan. Saying that I shouldn't go for speed since storm is the fastest is like saying no deck that isn't completely focused on control should bother playing counterspells since landstill already does it well. It's just not a logical argument at all.

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Ah, but I'm sure you agree dedicated combo decks are more readily comparable to eachother than most (all?) archetypes since their general gampelan generally involves minimizing the interactions within a game and win before the opponent can force the aforementioned interactions to happen anyway. Counterspells on the other hand are in almost all cases reactive and as such the decks they see play in and their role in them isn't as straightforward in my opinion - what are they intended to react to? In what part of the game? Do they support the general gameplan? Are they necessary not to lose against commonly played linear strategies? There's just a lot more things to consider, the least of which is not what your opponent migh be up to.

I guess my general assumption and argument is that if trying to fast and consistently having a card advantage and mana engine centered around creatures is less sound than having it revolve around non-creature permanents and spells since it suddenly turns the opponents otherwise dead removal spells into answers whilst still being susceptible to the traditionally used cards to hem this kind of decks in.

Whilst it does have the backup plan of swinging in with the engine if key pieces are countered, this is somewhat compounded by the fact that most metagamed decks are already forced to handle swarms of creatures out of necessity. Additionally, since killing off early mana elves and sweeping the board is also some of the best ways to delay the combo there is a lot of overlap in the way the opponent can at the very least delay both ways we can typically win the game (as opposed to, say, oldschool SI where the opponent was left guessing whether they could safely board out their removal or not due to Tomb of Urami and Xantid Swarm).

Ya I suppose there does seem to be a distinction between counters and combo then. I guess where I see the advantage is that game one I play the deck going straight combo, i.e. unless i'm up against discard I hold everything possible in my hand and then combo in one turn so they don't have the chance to stop it. This hopefully helps the case against removal.

Boarding in Fecundity helps against sweepers. Not full-proof but def makes them think twice about sweeping my elves mid combo so I can draw a buttload of cards

The aggro plan generally works when up against control by boarding in leylines for glimpses, since you are basically racing the aggro portion of the control deck, since their control is useless, which is def slower than the aggro option in this elf deck.

As for the way I figured out the efficiency...
I defined the goal as maximizing the number of elves in your hand ay any given time, while also minimizing their mana cost. This ensures that if glimpse is active, you have the best possible build to keep it going. Basically, the choice I made is that I sacrificed other engines to make sure that IF this one gets cast, it works. And it does, 99% of the time I go for the combo it pulls through, even if it seems like a shot in the dark. I maximized potential card advantage while minimizing average casting cost. I can go into more detail but I think this is probably enough to get the idea.


So what this does to my strategy is I hold elves in my hand until I either see a glimpse, summoner's pact, or regal force. Once these are seen, I either combo, or summon regal force, both usually result in a win. If none of these are seen, I will usually have enough beef to go aggro, or even enough mana to hardcast emrakul. The probability comes out as follows:

-There is roughly a 40% chance of drawing a glimpse in my opening hand (as with any card in any deck you play 4 copies of)
-Likewise, there is 40% chance of having a summoner's pact in my opening hand
-I don't want to do the calculation right now to get the exact number but there is around a 10% percent chance of seeing regal force in my opening hand

These probabilities together yield a 1-(.6)(.6)(.9)=.676 so aound a 68% chance of having one of these cards in my opening hand (i.e. an early win).

If this does not happen, there is still a 40% chance of having a lord in my hand (3 Archdruids, 1 Warcaller), and a 20% chance of having both a symbiote and a visionary (extra card each turn). Any of these would result in what I would call a "strong" opening hand. Thus, if we do the math out...

There is a 1-(.6)(.6)(.9)(.6)(.8)=.84448, so there is roughly an 85% chance of having what I consider to be a "strong" hand in the first seven cards.

If you figure that is before any mulligans, you have an 85% chance in the first 7 cards, then .85x(6/7)=.729 so a 73% chance of having a strong hand in the next 6 cards, that means you have a 1-(.15)(.27)=.9595, so a

96% chance of having a strong opening hand!

and that's without even mulliganing to 5!

Which is why the deck is so great...consistency is so damn high. With only 15-17 lands (typically.) How many other viable decks can operate on 15 lands and be that consistent? I can think of only 3 other decks that use that little land, and they aren't as consistent IMHO.

TES
Berserk Stompy (in all it's varieties...the highest land count I've seen is 18 or so)
1-land Belcher

What elves gives you is a hybridized combo/aggro deck...essentially doing the same as TES and Berserk Stompy in one deck, and that's before sideboarding. Good against control and aggro at the same time? That means we're playing on 2 different sides of the metagame clock. If you don't know what I mean by the metagame clock, check out this thread:

http://bgg.cc/thread/370207/what-i-k...-the-gathering

Veterans and noobies alike will gleen SOMETHING from that article.

Elves made top8 at a 245 player tournament in Japan! Here is the list: http://deckbase.net/deck.php?id=402

Looks pretty interesting to me, first of all: mirror entity is the chosen kill. I actually agree on this, I know many of know chose grapeshot/emrakul over entity, but I think entity version has some nice things to offer.

Discuss!

It looks like he opted for constency over speed...counting on a big swarm to get an aggro win.

I would really like to see the other top 8 decks. I'm guessing Survival showed up in big numbers, and CounterTop was fairly underrepresented. Some members here (myself included) have already said how good Elves is in the Survival matchup. I would say that Chord of Calling was the key ingredient to get Mirror Entity onto the battlefield, and they used his ability with spare mana to boost their elves for the alpha strike the same turn. I see that as a potential turn 3-4 win if you get a perfect hand.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

It looks like he opted for constency over speed...counting on a big swarm to get an aggro win.

I would really like to see the other top 8 decks. I'm guessing Survival showed up in big numbers, and CounterTop was fairly underrepresented. Some members here (myself included) have already said how good Elves is in the Survival matchup. I would say that Chord of Calling was the key ingredient to get Mirror Entity onto the battlefield, and they used his ability with spare mana to boost their elves for the alpha strike the same turn. I see that as a potential turn 3-4 win if you get a perfect hand.

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Check the link for the rest of top 8 ;) Just click Tokyo eternal festival ;)

Hey guys... Just thought I would post a list you might be interested in testing out... I have had consistent turn 4 kills today without even breaking a sweat. The list is a combo/aggro hybrid.

-- 18 Lands
6 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga

-- 7 Survival Package
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

-- 35 Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Champion
2 Jorga Warcaller
4 Fauna Shaman

-- 5 Draw Engine
1 Regal Force
4 Glimpse of Nature

Sideboard still under development

No reason not to run Wirewood Symbiote and draw elves (Visionary, Messenger) if you're going for the Archdruid/Titania package. Heck, no reason not to go with Symbiote anyway; the card is obnoxiously synergistic with the deck in general. Regal Force and Squee can be substituted for Masked Admirers as an uncounterable draw engine, or even a singleton Sylvan Mesenger if you're willing to give up some consistency going off for being a generally better topdeck (Eldariel describes the combo in the early pages of this thread, essentially you get a big mana elf in play and go wild with untappers) - it essentially makes Survival a one card combo on its own similar to vengevine. Elvish Champion is generally worse than Joraga in most cases as having an extra mana sink win condition independent of survival is generally more useful than the evasion, and it's another 1cc creature when Glimpsing out. No Heritage Druid? It still makes for some quite explosive starts and makes comboing out more consistent, and with Gaea's Cradle it's still a pretty respectable way to combo out by itself.

Anyway I'd consider at least trying to incorporate Wirewood Symbiotes and Elvish Visionary as a general failsafe as well as a singleton Masked Admirers/Sylvan Messenger to combo out manually with survival. What and if you cut is up to you, but I'd say Squee/Regal Force are both inferior engines compared to Admirers/Messenger all things considered, and Emrakul is probably more suitable as a sideboard card (it's redundant as a win condition but useful for dealing with damage prevention, milling and graveyard hate targeting Anger). With 18 lands (I prefer running Stomping Grounds over Fetches myself as aggressive decks will try to race you and having an early mana source Stifled is pretty crippling) you could also probably afford to go down to about 6 Llanowar Elves and 2-3 Rangers (if you run Symbiotes).

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Originally Posted by 1maarten1

Check the link for the rest of top 8 ;) Just click Tokyo eternal festival ;)

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I saw that the #1 deck (zoo) was packing 3 sideboarded Pyrostatic Pillars...yuck!!! Not only that, it ran 10 maindeck removals with 4 Swords, 2 Paths, and 4 Bolts. Yuck. Zoo is one of the worst matchups for elves, for sure.

One of the combo decks had Meddling Mage in the sideboard, too...another fast answer to the deck. Elves combos by turn 3...but not any earlier. Mage hits turn 2 easily enough, shutting off Glimpse. Yuck.

The other decks were a predictable line-up...but no survival varients, which is odd. ANT and SneakyShow were both in the top 8 with other all-stars like Merfolk and Bant...but no VengeVivals. Apparently, the japanese don't follow fad-decks like the americans do, lol.

EDIT: I still like a Grapeshot win, supplemented by straight-up beatdown, lol.

To put it into perspective, I can combo out on turn 2 without glimpse. Meddling Mage isn't universally run anymore, but it's another reason why relying on Glimpse to win the game for you can be precarious. Zoo isn't a problem matchup in my opinion (close to even, maybe slightly favored to us last I checked) - they're basically have to burn out everything you play for the first few turns in order not to risk autolosing, after which you should have a pretty comfortable lategame ahead of you as long as they didn't totally manascrew you (especially if they run Path to Exile - basic lands is your friend here). Of course this changes if they board extensively (always bring in Grips for Jitte, Canonist and Library), but overall it isn't all that bad. Sligh is another story since they actually run enough cheap burn and credible 1cc threats to race us consistently whilst disrupting.

The reason I really like my list is two fold primarily. First off it is not dependent on Glimpse of Nature to be effective. Second my list does not fold to Counterbalance unlike other variants may... Jorga has a CMC of 1 and Champion has a 3.

Also Jorga is strictly worse than Champion if you lack an abundance of mana. One other thing to note is the value of Forestwalk agaisnt counterbalance decks and Zoo.

It's also a 1cc which comes up all the time in practice (remember every elf on the board is an indirect mana source, and it plays ball with glimpse). Also one might just as well argue that Elvish Champion is strictly worse against decks not packing forests (or worse yet, elves or changelings of their own). In practice I've found Forestwalk to be of less importance versus Zoo since if you're in a position to be aggressive against them you're already winning, and even then swinging in with 3+ power elves forces them to chump away their board position. Less likely to be burned in a pinch as well (which also shuts down the forestwalk like that).

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Originally Posted by Infinitium

To put it into perspective, I can combo out on turn 2 without glimpse. Meddling Mage isn't universally run anymore, but it's another reason why relying on Glimpse to win the game for you can be precarious. Zoo isn't a problem matchup in my opinion (close to even, maybe slightly favored to us last I checked) - they're basically have to burn out everything you play for the first few turns in order not to risk autolosing, after which you should have a pretty comfortable lategame ahead of you as long as they didn't totally manascrew you (especially if they run Path to Exile - basic lands is your friend here). Of course this changes if they board extensively (always bring in Grips for Jitte, Canonist and Library), but overall it isn't all that bad. Sligh is another story since they actually run enough cheap burn and credible 1cc threats to race us consistently whilst disrupting.

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All I was saying was that it was fairly obvious why the top deck (zoo) was able to keep the Elves deck from reaching a higher standing. It outclassed the deck with it's sideboard is all I'm saying. A combo win would have been even more problematic with Grapeshot, considering the storm count would EASILY be enough to kill yourself with a Pillar on the table.

I can't remember, did the elves list sideboard NO-Pro?