[Deck] The Rock

Thanks for the report sdematt.

I plan on attending the SCG Open in Indianapolis. I've already booked a hotel. At this point I'm not sure what I will be playing, but it will for sure be a rock deck. I have a list that is pretty close to the popular junk list that I always do well with... then there's Titan Rock. I've really been working on this deck a lot lately and it is sick. It is not possible for any aggro deck to win against this deck. Most counterbalance decks have a hard time with it too, but they at least have a chance. The biggest problem that I'm running into is any dedicated control deck like landstill and some tempo decks. Here's the current list in short:

3 sun titan
3 kitchen finks
3 e. witness
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura tribe elder
4 KoTR

4 swords
3 deed
4 thoughtseize
4 therapy
3 top

3 marsh flats
3 catacombs
2 windswept heath
2 scrubland
2 bayou
1 savanah
2 wasteland
3 swamp
3 forest
2 plains

sideboard
3 k grip
4 duress
3 extirpate
1 bojuka bog
2 diabolic edict
2 path to exile

I still need to do a lot more testing, but if I can really get this deck to be an allstar against the expected meta, you all will be seeing me in the top 8 coverage and probably in at least 1 featured match before the top 8. I think the best answer to my problems with the dedicated control matchup would probably be thrun, the last troll. I plan on testing that a bit later, or just saying forget about that matchup as there probably won't be a lot of it anyways.

My issue is that either:

a) I don't resolve a Goyf or Knight, they counter it

b) They have too much pressure on board some of the time

I've found it's been better since I've added more Deed/EE, since I can sweep more. The Merfolk player even said he hated resolved creatures because he certainly can't compete with them. I find I'm losing because I might have a Tarmogoyf or a Knight, but he has Cursecatcher, Reejerey, Adept, etc. already on board. Again, I didn't get to play with the Plagues in, so I'm pretty sure I could have had better times postboard had I not screwed that one up.

I've found that the Mox Diamond, as I've said, can be beneficial at times, and sometimes not. Much of the time I'm Thoughtseizing/casting Top on turn 1. I'm not saying turn 2 plays on turn 1 are bad, don't get me wrong. I'm going on the basis of consistent mana vs. speed. I don't think in any of the games I played last night Diamond would have made it that much more in my favour, per say. All the cards I drew I wanted, and the cards replacing Diamond I needed/liked to have all night. I don't think against Merfolk having a turn 1 creature drop means as much as people argue. They'll have Vial, Cursecatcher, Mutavault, etc. to foil your plans of attack for the first little while at least, or until you blow something up. Dropping Confidant would be good, as would a Hymn, but I've found Daze/Cursecatcher to foil those plans more times than not.

I'm pretty sure Submerge is not the best card they could have in their sideboard. I'm assuming by play around Submerge you mean use Canopy as your green source and not have a Forest for them to be able to Submerge for free?

I'll keep trying the matchup (with sideboard of course). I'll keep trying Moxen and going back and forth, though.

Also: Off Topic ahead, beware. Do any of you also play Aggro-Loam? Just curious as Rock and Loam are very similar (in terms of larger finishers, higher CMC cards, mid game is very good for us, etc.). I'm just curious to see how many Rock players also play many of the same decks as their other decks.

-Matt

I used to play aggro loam as my everyday go-to deck before i started playing the rock. They are very similar except that aggro-loam is a bit more aggressive unsurprisingly. I go back to try it out every so often and it is still good. It is really good in the tribal matchups so I thought about commiting to it for the scg open, but it just get blown out by counterbalance preboard. Post board is reliance on k-grip, which doesn't always happen. First turn moxen is good with top too, because eot you can rearrange top 3 so on turn 2 you draw what you need. I also play a lot of storm combo on and off. I tend to stick with UBW because I really like orim's chant and sometimes empty the warrens is really terrible.

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Originally Posted by JonBarber

Whats your issue with merfolk? I particularly enjoy that matchup. Granted, playing with mox diamonds definitely gives an extra speed boost. As long as you can resolve a goyf or kotr, you really shouldn't have much of an issue. Save your removal for their corralhelm commanders.

Your playing niether mox diamond nor horizon canopy, so you can't play around submerge which sucks. Not losing to their wastelands is also very important.

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Agreed I completely dominate merefolk to the tune of about 70% of game ones go to me....Not sure whats troubling your build...I do well even when I dont open with mox...

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Originally Posted by sdematt

My issue is that either:

a) I don't resolve a Goyf or Knight, they counter it

b) They have too much pressure on board some of the time

I've found it's been better since I've added more Deed/EE, since I can sweep more. The Merfolk player even said he hated resolved creatures because he certainly can't compete with them. I find I'm losing because I might have a Tarmogoyf or a Knight, but he has Cursecatcher, Reejerey, Adept, etc. already on board. Again, I didn't get to play with the Plagues in, so I'm pretty sure I could have had better times postboard had I not screwed that one up.

I've found that the Mox Diamond, as I've said, can be beneficial at times, and sometimes not. Much of the time I'm Thoughtseizing/casting Top on turn 1. I'm not saying turn 2 plays on turn 1 are bad, don't get me wrong. I'm going on the basis of consistent mana vs. speed. I don't think in any of the games I played last night Diamond would have made it that much more in my favour, per say. All the cards I drew I wanted, and the cards replacing Diamond I needed/liked to have all night. I don't think against Merfolk having a turn 1 creature drop means as much as people argue. They'll have Vial, Cursecatcher, Mutavault, etc. to foil your plans of attack for the first little while at least, or until you blow something up. Dropping Confidant would be good, as would a Hymn, but I've found Daze/Cursecatcher to foil those plans more times than not.

I'm pretty sure Submerge is not the best card they could have in their sideboard. I'm assuming by play around Submerge you mean use Canopy as your green source and not have a Forest for them to be able to Submerge for free?

I'll keep trying the matchup (with sideboard of course). I'll keep trying Moxen and going back and forth, though.

Also: Off Topic ahead, beware. Do any of you also play Aggro-Loam? Just curious as Rock and Loam are very similar (in terms of larger finishers, higher CMC cards, mid game is very good for us, etc.). I'm just curious to see how many Rock players also play many of the same decks as their other decks.

-Matt

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For me mox is sick. Thing is a first turn hymm or confidant or even thoughtseize and top are just power house openers.
Especially if you play first.You use the discard to draw theyre counter out and look at what theyre packing and then drop you dudes.. Vial is annoying but is of no concern when theyre hand is empty or even low. cursecatcher can be little more then a pest it cant stop deed or EE so you gotta just watch the order in which you do things. I have baited them into using him to counter something with him before just to land somthing afterwards. mutavault is rarely a factor if you pack a full set of wasteland and commander is the only thing that will smash you if you dont watch it that flying sucks for us but maze can be of assistance. Dont let a standstill sit turn after turn play into it and give them the cards and keep moving other wise youll have to fight through it and a fist full of counter too. when it comes to combat theyre guys cant even compete against ours and a KOR with a maze is almost game over for sure.....Good luck on the rest of your deck testing though I think you will get it down and that matchup will be less of a issue down the road....

a) I know I shouldn't let Standstill sit, I'm not terrible :P

b) For me, it just seems that most of the time I'm always overrun/screwed over by him, no matter the amount of removal, counters, or creatures I draw. Again, it could be I'm drawing badly and he's drawing very well at times, considering we both play similar lists with similar cards. He's also a VERY good player, and plays the black Splash for Perish/Engineered Plague (just so you know which version he's playing).

I'll be testing some more, though. I'm hoping to just play against it more and maybe just run better numbers. It could be I haven't played a statistically significant number of games against them yet :P

-Matt

Something which I've seen few Rock/Deadguy players side-in against Merfolk which has been tremendously strong for me is Extirpate. The average build is running in 3 SB, but I'm not seeing it get much use against Merfolk. Why? We run a suite of removal so getting Lords thrown into the 'yard isn't an issue, thus using 1 card to remove 3 remaining Lord's seems pretty strong.This is especially true if you can remove Coralhelm (priority) or Reejery, which puts you at a huge advantage.

Or, y'know, you could always splash R for Spinal Villain. :rolleyes:

Forlorn Egoist

Most of the time, I'm also RFG'ing most of the creatures, but sweeping then Extirpating seems an alright plan. The problem is what to take out?

Right now, I'm taking out 4 vindicate for 4 Plague, and then usually a random for another Deed. What should I cut for another 3 Extirpates, or should I not bother with Plagues at all? Plague helps slow them down, as you can usually remove the one lord they need to lay more dudes, and hopefully follow up with a second one.

-Matt

I typically don't even bother with E. Plague other than for the Goblin MU. The issue being that with Merfolk if you drop them early enough yeah they're amazing, but the problem is that firstly you need to drop more than 1 E. Plague and secondly, the Merfolk player only has to cast 1 of their 12-16 Lords to completely negate an E. Plague. Most of the time I drop it they don't even bother countering it. They just say: "Yea, E. Plague resolves. EOT Vial in a Lord, on my turn drop another 1-2 Lords, swing."

I typically SB in Extirpate, Pernicious Deed(s), Dueling Grounds, and/or Path to Exile when I have it in the SB. Yeah, Ground doesn't stop them from swinging in the air with a Coralhelm/1 powerful Lord, but it does stops them from mass-attacking with 5 or 6 dudes at once, and by limiting them to 1 attacker you can just reserve a KotR/Goyf to block and save your StP/PtE for Coralhelm if necessary. Dueling Grounds also lets you take full advantage of Maze of Ith, and stalls out until you draw a board sweeper (Engineered Explosives/Pernicious Deed) which I have found to be the best way to deal with tribal.

Of course, my meta also typically sticks to a Mono-U build, so I can't speak for how effective my strategy is for the B/W splash.

Forlorn Egoist

Siding in extirpate sounds like a horrible plan to me. Why? Because even in a long match, it's not as though cutting them off a single lord is really going to matter, since they will still draw creatures, and they'll still have access to many lords. Even if they can't draw a particular lord, their draws are still going to be good, and you won't even notice that you played extirpate. It's not like playing against countertop that has 4 goyfs and 3 Jaces--Extirpating any of their win-cons seriously hurts them. Furthermore, actually getting the lord you want is tough since your :w: removal exiles creatures. That means you have to have them discard a card, or hit a creature with your couple deeds. Seems like a bad plan to me. When you could playing more creature removal/discard/creatures/control cards, extirpate seems like it will barely have an effect and thus be a poor choice.

Engineered Plague is a great card against merfolk, and if you think otherwise that's just silly. Sure, lords can negate the effect, but keep in mind that engineered plague is slowing them down a lot. Suddenly their two lord board and a mutavault is swinging for 3 less a turn. You also get the added advantage that if they only have a single lord + cursecatcher or silvergil you can kill that creature for free. Plus, if you get multiple Eplagues out it's very difficult for them to defeat that, since your big creatures will just race them and they might not even be able to develop any board presence.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

Siding in extirpate sounds like a horrible plan to me. Why? Because even in a long match, it's not as though cutting them off a single lord is really going to matter, since they will still draw creatures, and they'll still have access to many lords. Even if they can't draw a particular lord, their draws are still going to be good, and you won't even notice that you played extirpate. It's not like playing against countertop that has 4 goyfs and 3 Jaces--Extirpating any of their win-cons seriously hurts them. Furthermore, actually getting the lord you want is tough since your :w: removal exiles creatures. That means you have to have them discard a card, or hit a creature with your couple deeds. Seems like a bad plan to me. When you could playing more creature removal/discard/creatures/control cards, extirpate seems like it will barely have an effect and thus be a poor choice.

Engineered Plague is a great card against merfolk, and if you think otherwise that's just silly. Sure, lords can negate the effect, but keep in mind that engineered plague is slowing them down a lot. Suddenly their two lord board and a mutavault is swinging for 3 less a turn. You also get the added advantage that if they only have a single lord + cursecatcher or silvergil you can kill that creature for free. Plus, if you get multiple Eplagues out it's very difficult for them to defeat that, since your big creatures will just race them and they might not even be able to develop any board presence.

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I second this 100%

Extirpating non-win condition cards creates virtual card advantage, and typically, you want real card advantage. E plague is amazing vs folk. If you use your removal properly, 2 plagues usually ends the game vs them. I'm never disappointed to see the card in that matchup

If you're running Plague, do you think it's necessary to run the full set or do you think I could get away with 2 E Plagues and an Enlightened Tutor?

Well, what else do you want the rest of your board to look like? Personally I'm a fan of 4 plagues (Or maybe 3 + 1-2 tutors) because you have increased consistency to see them and getting two out is almost an auto-win against tribal decks.

Matt, why are you boarding out your vindicates? Try this: -4 Hymn, -1 Elspeth; +4 plagues, +1 Deed. Honestly though, I wouldn't worry about plague. Just remove a hymn for the deed and move on. You have a ton of early removal and vindicates will help. You can force them to deal with you.
If you're still having trouble I would add some room for 3 chokes. It sounds odd but, Folk's strength is being able to drop lords quickly. If you limit them to the vials you turn them into a crappy blue aggressive deck...

When it comes to E. Plague vs Extirpate, I feel that Extirpates 3 for 1 CA is better then E. Plague. You say that see no difference from Extirpating a Lord and yet you do when you have E. Plague in play? I don't understand that seeing as one of the Lords already "negates" the E. Plague, they just have another 2/2 on the field. And then another Lord will have them going, as where if you Extirpate a Lord, you won't have to deal with it anymore. Extirpate gives you CA as where E. Plague does not. I have to go w/ Extirpate over E. Plague.

I'd rather say take Choke over Engineered Plague, but w/ Aether Vial, I still do not seeing it being a huge hurdle for them to overcome.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

a) I know I shouldn't let Standstill sit, I'm not terrible :P

b) For me, it just seems that most of the time I'm always overrun/screwed over by him, no matter the amount of removal, counters, or creatures I draw. Again, it could be I'm drawing badly and he's drawing very well at times, considering we both play similar lists with similar cards. He's also a VERY good player, and plays the black Splash for Perish/Engineered Plague (just so you know which version he's playing).

I'll be testing some more, though. I'm hoping to just play against it more and maybe just run better numbers. It could be I haven't played a statistically significant number of games against them yet :P

-Matt

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LOL.... glad to know your not terrible....But its funny the stratigies that seem to be the way to go at the time we are playing but agreed I feel that should be obvious....I do find that for my build I run +1 tutor +1 EE in the main over gerrards verdict along with the 1 main deck deed that 3 ways to have a board sweep....Plus in my board I have 1 more EE which is the only thing I bring in vs merefolk...That gives you 4 ways to sweep...I dont agree with boarding out vindivate though I saw that being disscussed and not to say somthing else couldnt be effective but it just seem counter productive to me and plague seem kinda half ass in this matchup....I know deed is a bomb thats why I keep one main deck but EE is faster in alot of situations and in this matchup dropping it for 2 is pretty bomb you can do it 3 turn without catching a daze...And when it hits it changes what they are able to do...

I took out the Vindicates in that match because I found that a 1-for-1 at 3 mana wasn't cutting the mustard against him, at least in game 1. Even after we played a few games, he remarked he never liked to see Hymn to Tourach. I'll give your suggestion a try, though. To be honest, I wish I could just add when I sideboard (I know this isn't productive, but you know what I mean :tongue:)

-Matt

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Originally Posted by ZeinVoncy

When it comes to E. Plague vs Extirpate, I feel that Extirpates 3 for 1 CA is better then E. Plague.

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This is completely wrong. Extirpate is not card advantage, and it is nowhere near a 3 for 1. It is atrocious in this matchup, because merfolk is going to play almost the same against you regardless if any one of their threats is extirpated. Think about it, the merfolk deck wins lots of games without ever drawing a particular card, so it seems pretty worthless to exile any of their cards when they can still just beat you anyway. So instead of actually doing something to affect the board or their hand you're playing a card that doesn't really do anything. EPlauge actually does something, because it saves you from taking more damage, and with some good use of spot removal can usually get a creature too (cursecatcher, silvergil). It doesn't matter if a lord "negates" EPlauge, because plague is saving you from taking a lot of damage. And like I said, two plagues out can become an autowin against them if you have spot removal for even a single lord if they have two out.

I much prefer Grounds to Plague. Plague is so often irrelevant unless it comes down in multiples. Take the triple Lord example earlier. 1 E Plague saves you 3 life but Dueling Grounds saves you 8. Fish and Goblins both win by swarming. Unlike decks like Bant, they're not going to try and win by protecting and swinging with one threat. It also means less board space devoted to the matchups and I can use all the extra board space I can get. Instead of 3-4 Plagues and an E Tutor, I can run 2 Grounds and a tutor and have an extra slot for something else. The only tribal matchup where Plague is better is Elves and that's because they're a creature based storm deck where attacking with Elves is a secondary win-con; primary is Emrakul, Tendrils or Grapeshot. And you can just bring in combo hate like CotV or Ethersworn against them.

Sk8, which hotel are you staying at? I'll be at the La Quinta at Executive Drive over by the airport. I'm bringing the Bant deck I played in KC.

Agreed. Dueling grounds just seems much better in general. I was simply arguing for Eplague's value when others think it's not really relevant. But, if you really want to deal with the tribal matchups just play dueling grounds. I like the idea of using probably 2 grounds/2 tutors so that you can increase hate of other cards like ethersworn canonist and the like.