[DTB] Blade Control

So here is my latest list and the decklist I'll probably be taking to my next Legacy event (like a month or so away). Here is the list:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Path to Exile

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Riptide Labotary
1 Karakas
1 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Path to Exile
3 Purify the Grave
2 Pyroblast
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Wrath of God
1 Disenchant
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

What do you guys think?

@ waikiki:
my list only features 2 cmc spells plus 2 ponders, pseudo replacing the 23rd land.
With your MD I'd also opt for 23 lands for sure though.

@ planeswalkerzen:
I like your list, but I really want at least 6 MD removal spells - PtE #2 seems "meh" though, which is why I'm splashing red (--> bolt)

A few questions:

1. For those of you with Crucible of Worlds in the SB... under what conditions do you swap that in, and what do you generally swap out for it?

2. I'm running 2 Engineered Explosives MD. Right now it's my only mass-destruction in my 75 (I am splashing red, so I do have 2 Lightning Bolts, but not currently running any Firespouts in SB). I find EE really useful, especially when facing threats in game 1 that I can't otherwise remove, like artifacts/enchantments, or a horde of 0-3cmc creatures. The fact that I can tailor the removal to work around my own guys if they're on the board is also useful (or, if I have to, I'll nuke them too). Is it worth including more mass removal like Wraths SB, and I'm curious why others haven't made the decision to run EE in the MB?

3. I haven't faced down control like TES, etc. yet. I'm just getting into the local tournament scene and while I haven't seen any storm decks yet, I've heard rumors of them. I've got 2 Flusterstorm and 2 Mindbreak Trap in my SB since these seemed like the best options. Too much? Unnecessary? I'd like to make room for other matchups if I can (maybe Wraths? maybe Firespout? maybe some Standstill if I decide to side out the Stoneblade package?).

For people how have done the path or tested extensively, does 23 lands really work?

relative to other 20-22 land count decks, we have a significant number of high-end spells, and unlike the other decks, we have no alternative acceleration pieces.

3x jace
1x elspeth

and we are extremely heavy at the 3 point curve. i have no doubt about the ability to get to three lands, but since we want at least 5 lands in play, then with 23 aren't we often getting stuck on 3.5 lands?

i feel like if you are running 23 lands, then often you are going to be missing a land drop, and your best play will be to run out a quick SFM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by biggerliz

For people how have done the path or tested extensively, does 23 lands really work?

relative to other 20-22 land count decks, we have a significant number of high-end spells, and unlike the other decks, we have no alternative acceleration pieces.

3x jace
1x elspeth

and we are extremely heavy at the 3 point curve. i have no doubt about the ability to get to three lands, but since we want at least 5 lands in play, then with 23 aren't we often getting stuck on 3.5 lands?

i feel like if you are running 23 lands, then often you are going to be missing a land drop, and your best play will be to run out a quick SFM.

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I can't speak from experience playing 23 lands, but to give an indication of the probabilities (assuming I did my calculations correctly):

With 23 lands, you have a 42% chance of getting 5+ lands in your first 11 cards.
With 24 lands, you have a 53% chance.

Note that this isn't taking into account mulligans, fetching, or effects of brainstorms. Presumably taking into account mulligans would increase your odds slightly (because you're redrawing the really bad opening hands), brainstorm would also increase your odds, and fetching would lower your odds slightly due to filtering (but only very slightly).

So, I would say that's significant, especially considering that there are a number of lands that you don't really want to play in the first few turns (utilities, color splash, etc). I definitely wouldn't feel comfortable playing 23 lands with a color splash.

8 BS go a long way to find lands #4/5 (wink wink, Snappy).

Plus in my 23 land version I play a singleton Ponder (and no - it's not a random 1of, just cantrip #5)

I played 23 lands with 1 ponder for the longest time. No problems there (other than against something like RUG Tempo). I'm currently running 24 though. Never really flooded and always make my landdrops. It seems like the right number IMO. 23/24 lands isn't a big deal IMO.

And yes, 6 MD removal is a must. Either Path or Bolt is needed to stay afloat against Tempo/GW Maverick.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

And yes, 6 MD removal is a must. Either Path or Bolt is needed to stay afloat against Tempo/GW Maverick.

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+1

I'm currently having 7 MD spot removals and (despite snappy) still want more in many games..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by klaus

8 BS go a long way to find lands #4/5 (wink wink, Snappy).

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I have a feeling if you're using all your brainstorms and Snappies for finding land, you're doing it wrong. ;-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by matunos

I have a feeling if you're using all your brainstorms and Snappies for finding land, you're doing it wrong. ;-)

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It's a "just in case thing".
Plus you're drawing business in the meantime..
We are talking about +/- 1 land...

so i have a xmass eve legacy event coming up and thought i would ask for advice.

The main stay decks i'll probably see
Junk
B/w 2 drops (stoneforge bob bitter hymn)
Natural order bant
stacks
dredge
goblins
Reanimator
Storm
U/w control lists (alot of people in my area just refuse to play mystic though)
and someone new is always trying a u/b list (as in a few different people try this list)

So any maindeck and board recommendation for this meta
(this is probably not all of the decks)

I've been thinking about the right number of MD removal spells. Here in Germany many people play decks like Maverick and delver and i think 4 swords are not enough. I really dislike path as a card so i want to try out engineered explosives (i play UWr version). What is the general opinion of this card? Sure you can't flash it back with snapcaster, but it has the potential of 2(or more) for one by itself.

preddi

My updated list. Let me know what you think! :D

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Preordain
2 Counterspell
1 Oblivion Ring

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
1 Riptide Labotary
1 Karakas
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Path to Exile
3 Purify the Grave
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Wrath of God
1 Disenchant
1 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Quote:

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Originally Posted by preddi

I've been thinking about the right number of MD removal spells. Here in Germany many people play decks like Maverick and delver and i think 4 swords are not enough. I really dislike path as a card so i want to try out engineered explosives (i play UWr version). What is the general opinion of this card? Sure you can't flash it back with snapcaster, but it has the potential of 2(or more) for one by itself.

preddi

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It is an okay card. But since you mention a serious presence of Delver.dec, I assume Stifle makes it much worse than it used to be.

Also: this thread features a non-blade UWR approach that you might find interesting.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...301#post609301

I like Engineered Explosives. I include it MD as it can rid me of any 0-3cmc problems (since I have a splash). I got out of a Trinisphere and Crucible prison with one recently. It's not a panacea, but unless you want to specialize with Wraths or go old-school with Disks (which I don't think anyone does this), there's not a lot of better options.

If I didn't have the 3rd color, I wouldn't run them, though.

Quote:

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matunos
I like Engineered Explosives. I include it MD as it can rid me of any 0-3cmc problems (since I have a splash). I got out of a Trinisphere and Crucible prison with one recently. It's not a panacea, but unless you want to specialize with Wraths or go old-school with Disks (which I don't think anyone does this), there's not a lot of better options.

If I didn't have the 3rd color, I wouldn't run them, though.

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Sounds reasonable.
Stifleing explosives is an issue, but i think there are so many stifle targets in the deck already so this shouldn't be a reason to not run this card.
I think i will try this card out and see if it works or not. Often things look good or bad on paper, but in reality they will play out different.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by preddi

I've been thinking about the right number of MD removal spells. Here in Germany many people play decks like Maverick and delver and i think 4 swords are not enough. I really dislike path as a card so i want to try out engineered explosives (i play UWr version). What is the general opinion of this card? Sure you can't flash it back with snapcaster, but it has the potential of 2(or more) for one by itself.

preddi

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I feel EE is very good and I run 2 in the sideboard at the moment. Not only can it clear creatures it can get rid of counterbalance, choke, chalice of the void, etc. and is a lot more versatile than something like Disenchant. I run 3 colors and I have loved my EE's in the board. I even use them to clear zombie tokens against dredge which came up at the last legacy tournament I played in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dan who?

I feel EE is very good and I run 2 in the sideboard at the moment. Not only can it clear creatures it can get rid of counterbalance, choke, chalice of the void, etc. and is a lot more versatile than something like Disenchant. I run 3 colors and I have loved my EE's in the board. I even use them to clear zombie tokens against dredge which came up at the last legacy tournament I played in.

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I agree, EE is very good if you play 3 colors against the things you mentioned. I currently have a package of

1 Trinket Mage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top

in the maindeck. With Trinket Mage, it's a virtual 2-of of EE and SD.Top without actually playing two, since having 2 EE maindeck would be bad against some matchups. This also allows to play a singleton Tormod's Crypt or so in the board for more value. SD.Top is just very good in control mirrors and flat out wins games if they go long, and EE is good mostly for already mentioned reasons. The Trinket Mage can be clunky from time to time, but it is still card advantage, a beater, and it's blue. I also try to fit an Academy Ruins in the deck, since it's very good with EE and Crypt and also a backup solution to get your equipments back if they start bringing in artifact hate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by preddi

Sounds reasonable.
Stifleing explosives is an issue, but i think there are so many stifle targets in the deck already so this shouldn't be a reason to not run this card.
I think i will try this card out and see if it works or not. Often things look good or bad on paper, but in reality they will play out different.

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Yeah I suppose if you're in a stifle-heavy meta, the one good thing about Larry Nevin's Disk is that Stifle can only delay it.

A couple of naive questions from someone who is new to the deck :

Has anyone tried 3 thopter foundry + 1 sword of the meek? We're a bit light on artifacts to support foundry but it's still a very powerfull engine, very synergetic with SFM and nice to have to stabilize in the late-game (including vs pesky burn / sligh / fast zoo decks).

I'm wondering whether a few B2B in the SB wouldn't be interesting. I'm thinking it could have a very nice surprise effect vs greedy decks such as BUG, bant or RUG, especially when it's not expected and they won't think about fetching basics. Hurts us too, sure, but we play ~6 basics and if we see it coming we can adapt in advance.