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They did take out Tops iin Extended for the same reason. Considering that PTQs have real tournament size/space/time concerns, this ban makes sense for the desired effect. I think a Lotus Bloom or Reshape ban would have been better to neuter the deck; but that's what we have right now and it will reduce people playing the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn
I base it on 29 out of 30 magic players who play magic at real stores at real weeklies not wanting to deal with playing against (or playing with) the egg deck because it's fucking miserable. I guess I hate sitting down and doing nothing for 30 minutes or drawing my hate cards and blowing out a shitbox deck with no defenses in 4 minutes ... when I'd rather be playing modern. What a kill joy I am. I'm done arguing, WotC agrees and 99% of the people who actually come to play magic on Modern night agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn
Don't worry, they'll print more stuff by accident that will enable another powerful combo deck. Modern will die if WotC continues to just ban stuff because it shows how incompetent they are at managing Modern.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
+1 Koby in spotting Lotus Bloom or Reshape could have made the deck less effective, but still viable. It would've been the more appropriate card to cut. I'm not a fan of Eggs, but I disagree with the way WotC went about swinging the ban hammer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
@H3llsp4wn & Koby - as a non-blue player in Legacy, I love Top and would be uber pissed if it got cut. An opponent (playing Esper Stoneblade) said Top was lame due to my constant use of it, while on the other side of the table, he did the same thing with a Jace. Pot calling Kettle black? Just wanted to vent, thank you.
Cheers,
there's room for everyone, or there should be
Bloom is an interesting card for Tezzeret and other applications ... I'm glad they banned the narrow card. Nobody was using Second Sunrise to come back from Wrath or anything.
No, I think you're wrong in this case. Even if the deck weren't completely obnoxious to play against, had plenty of cards that you could sideboard in to beat, and didn't take forever, it is still possible that the correct choice by WotC is to ban it. Twitch.tv and other tournament streams (ggslive, whatever other ones) are a large draw to many people who like magic already and a great way to retain interest for people who don't have local areas to play specific formats or are just too busy at the moment. I don't have the numbers on other people, but I can tell you that whenever any stream at all showed Eggs I would either turn off the stream or mute it and wait for something better to come up. The deck is just boring, as comboing out doesn't require thought intensive things like IGG loop or happen quickly like Ad Nauseum or Belcher wins. You have the opponent literally writing "F6" on a piece of paper and sliding it under the camera. Who wants to watch that?Quote:
Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn
You may think that all decisions are based on metagame health, but there are more aspects to magic than just diversity of decks. People's perception of how fun it is to play in X format is what drives most people towards or away from it.
You say this in every thread, yet don't have any facts to back it up. I get your doomsdaying, but do you have to say the same thing everywhere without any new information on it?Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
The desired effect for old Extended and now Modern is chiefly concerned with PTQ logistics. Untimed Top 8s cannot actually start at 10 PM when most venues are rented out. To this end, WotC wants to ensure that tournaments don't run excessively longer than needed. The Eggs deck was a primary reason these tournaments ran long. Thus, the goal to prevent the delays heed the need to ban something from that deck, with prior precedence. The ban to that end is justified.
Legacy doesn't have those concerns for one reason: it is not a PTQ format.
What new information are you expecting exactly? Secret WotC documents detailing the current turn over of players leaving/entering Modern and their current and future goals?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
Modern is a fun experiment to watch. I'd imagine that some people (I myself included) have thought "I wonder what an Eternal format without Force of Will would be like"? Well, Modern is that result. Compared to Vintage, Legacy, Standard and even Extended, I don't think we have ever seen a format with bannings as frequent as Moderns. This hints at a few things:
1. WotC is incompetent when it comes to Modern (somewhat obvious).
2. Modern will continue to have periods of X deck performing well, Y card gets banned, and then repeat Ad Nauseum.
3. The above two may drive away players to go play a more stable and active format. If it's Legacy, it will cause Legacy card prices to go up (see: SCG raising prices recently on Legacy staples).
1. I think the exact opposite is true. They're trying to keep a format that has more interaction and a slower critical turn. Sometimes they even need to ban things that just take too damn long Sensei's Divining Top. By banning random combo pieces that pop up (with a gigantic card pool it's hard to tell both which combos will work and which are too hard to stop, some bannings from time to time are expected, unlike in Legacy where it is only their goal to keep degenerate combos from happening) they can keep it under control. Sometimes the combos just take too long for the average player to have a tournament either large or small scale work.
2. One could argue rotating bans keep the format dynamic and exciting. As a deck builder I was very happy to the possibilities that came from Bloodbraid Elf being banned.
3. The above two may also drive more players towards the format. SCG raising prices on Legacy staples does not mean that people are driven from Modern to Legacy, it means they're a business with the largest amount of money to throw around and create a collusive oligopoly. Without any evidence, you're trying to connect Legacy's raising prices to Modern dying?
Why in the world does this surprise you? Griselbrand doesn't see play in any of the top decks or even have much of a presence in the format and doesn't take forever to win. This is like being astonished that Mental Misstep got banned but Trinisphere didn't in Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
I think banning Top for time reasons was dumb, but it's very possible that was the initial reason, but they kept it banned due to power reasons (it is a very strong card).Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
The issue with Eggs, I feel, wasn't just that it took a long time, it's that it took a long time and was played fairly often. Sure, Spiral Tide in Legacy can take long turns, but due to its expense (Candelabras in particular) you don't see the deck that much. Eggs, on the other hand, was one of the easiest and cheapest decks in the format to build.
If I wanted that, I'd play Standard (which for the record: I do), where I'd know exactly what cards would be banned (well, rotated) and exactly when they would be banned. That's not true for Modern, where we keep getting these bans with the advance notice of a few weeks. Knowing two years ahead of time I can't play with Snapcaster Mage in Standard is a lot different than knowing two weeks ahead of time I can't play with Second Sunrise in Modern.Quote:
2. One could argue rotating bans keep the format dynamic and exciting. As a deck builder I was very happy to the possibilities that came from Bloodbraid Elf being banned.
It is kind of funny how Wizards wants this format slower yet faster at the same time.
Yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
I don't think all of the bannings are necessarily bad, but seeing the frequency of the bannings just looks really unprofessional if they are trying to host Modern as a PTQ format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
And I wasn't trying to say that Modern dying per say is making Legacy get more expensive. What I was trying to say that people who don't like the constant bannings in Moden might move onto the more stable Legacy, which could be a source of it's prices rising. Modern dying or not had no bearing on what point I was trying to make.
As far as keeping the format dynamic, I would rather see that happen from decks being made as opposed to decks being removed on a regular basis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
Am I mistaken or did you just diss Eggs for being boring to watch? Oh yeah, watching those lingering soul tokens block each other all day felt so much more interactive. GP Lyon was one of the most boring streams I've ever watched because of those flying peckers.
I rather see an egg player combo out or fizzle. Takes less time then 8 goddamn attacksteps...
"It might be a lot better in the future" is a pretty lousy reason to ban something.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Didn't stop WotC from banning Survival for that very reasoning. Truth is, when (and not if) WotC prints another good reanimation or spell-based kill con then Griselbrand will be on the cross-hairs. It only takes one piece of synergistic enabler/finisher to make the current Griselbrand deck over the top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
That wasn't the "very reasoning". This was their reasoning, and I quote:Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Not a word about future cards making it too good. All of their reasoning was about the present. Now, people have argued whether the ban was really necessary and whether the meta just needed a little more time to sort itself out, but you're just misrepresenting the reasoning they gave.Quote:
In recent months, Survival of the Fittest decks have been outperforming other decks in Legacy. This has caused the competitive format to become significantly less diverse. This has reached a point where the DCI concluded that it is appropriate to ban a card.
Other cards were considered, such as Vengevine. However some of the winning decks do not even play Vengevine; instead, they primarily rely on combinations with Necrotic Ooze. Also, Survival is a card that gives the decks a lot of resilience to potential answer cards. Some combination decks fail when they draw cards intended as answers to opponents' decks instead of cards that are part of their winning combination. However, with Survival of the Fittest on the battlefield, a drawn Qasali Pridemage can be replaced with any other creature in the deck for one mana.
And if so, they'd ban it then. Saying a card should be banned because at some point in the future it might be too good due to some other card is kind of absurd. So I'm very puzzled as to why someone would be surprised Eggs (which delayed entire events) would get a ban, but not a card from a fringe deck that doesn't have that problem.Quote:
Truth is, when (and not if) WotC prints another good reanimation or spell-based kill con then Griselbrand will be on the cross-hairs. It only takes one piece of synergistic enabler/finisher to make the current Griselbrand deck over the top.
I mean... that's the very definition of interaction applied to Magic.Quote:
Originally Posted by TraxDaMax
There are always outliers, but I don't think the majority of magic players enjoy watching a deck combo out that takes at least 5 minutes using shortcuts already. Not only could you not really tell what was happening on a stream while the player was comboing out (mana floating, spells on the stack, graveyards are all harder to make out), there was no real appeal to the combo that made it entertaining (charbelcher at least flips cards off the top and has a chance of missing).Quote:
GP Lyon was one of the most boring streams I've ever watched because of those flying peckers.
I rather see an egg player combo out or fizzle. Takes less time then 8 goddamn attacksteps...
But even if appeal is taken out of the conversation completely, the deck took too damn long and held up tournaments.
The biggest flaw in the banning of second sunrise on logistics is thinking a round will not go to time just because one deck is not played. This is incorrect I have seen affinity vs affinity go time just because one of the players slow plays everything. This is not very common but there are other decks that drag the game out as well and banning cards out of all of those decks would kill the modern format... Also eggs has a fairly consistent T3 kill (not nearly as consistent as storms was but still there) and wizards is trying to keep this style of combo deck out of the format I would not be surprised to see something in blistercoil weird get banned purely based on the fact it can win on turn 2 or 3 pretty easily. Though wizards may not have said it I believe this was a large contributing factor in the banning of second sunrise though I am sad to see it banned as I was going to start learning eggs in my free time with it being one of two decks I have not picked up in modern and played.
In all I do not think it deserved its banning the deck was easily disrupted by some of the most popular decks in the format remand a lotus bloom off suspend and the player has to wait another 3 turns to attempt to combo if you cant kill them in 6 turns on a tempo geist deck you probably kept a hand you should not have. There are cards in the format that just hose what the deck is designed to do a T2 stoney silence is also usually just a win against the deck Tidehollow Sculler and other hand disruption also fine. The only decks that have problems with eggs are decks that do not interact with their opponents non creature spells/permanents and those style of decks are always going to have problems with combo decks in general so why ban sunrise when it was not breaking the format play a sideboard card that allows you to beat the deck and stop crying....
But...that wasn't the thinking. Did you even read the explanation for why it was banned? They never said rounds somehow won't go to time because of the lack of Eggs, because they obviously will. The issue is what happens after decks go to time. With only 5 turns available after going to time, a match can really only be drawn out so much, even if both players are playing slowly. Eggs changes that because of its long terms that greatly add to how much a deck can go overtime. In a smaller local tournament, an Eggs deck caused a round to go like 20+ minutes overtime. What other deck in Modern can do that? Certainly not Affinity vs. Affinity.Quote:
Originally Posted by nnjnnj
Personally I'm neutral on the banning, but your whole message seems to largely be creating a strawman to attack due to you not addressing the actual rationale they offered for the ban.