[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

After previously suggesting testing with standstill, and then going ahead and doing so for several days exclusively, I do not believe the addition of a 2cmc pulse is going to allow us to play the factory creatureless role. That is, I don't think the one card will allow standstill to be a viable option for a long while, especially if the set continues to develop with aggressive 1/2 drops + abilities.

That is not to say I won't be playing 2/3 AD between the 75, but I really don't think that standstill is going to cut right now, at least definitely not as a 4 of.

Chances are I will staying with 3 IB, with 2 Snaps, and using AB/Demise split, although I might up the factory count to 3. I don't think going down to 2 wastelands is a good idea however, as Cavern of souls can still give gobos/folk enough steam out of the gates to run rampant on a turn 3 deed.

The list will probably be 23 lands, 3 waste, 3 factory (cutting a fetch for the factory)
4 BS
4 Force
3 Pierce
2 Snare
2 Snap
3 IB
3 Jace
3 Lili
2 Ghastly Demise
2 AB
3 Deed
2 Counterspell
3 Inquisition
1 Loam

If I were going to add Standstill I'd play this list:



3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
2 Spell Snare

2 Standstill
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Swamp
1 Island


//Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Perish
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Nature's Claim
2 Flusterstorm
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Darkblast

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chikenbok

If I were going to add Standstill I'd play this list:



3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
2 Spell Snare

2 Standstill
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Swamp
1 Island


//Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Perish
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Nature's Claim
2 Flusterstorm
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Darkblast

---

On our local tournament this past wednesday, I played a quite similar list and Standstill was awesome! However, I chose to maximize the number of Innocent Bloods and cut the Loam off the list. As we only need it against some utility lands, I went down to 2 Wastelands and never missed some. Here is the whole list:

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm

4 Innocent Blood
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Standstill
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Meekstone
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Nature's Ruin
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin

Meekstone is my superduperawesomesecretsideboardtech. However, it did nothing this wednesday, but so did all this gravehate stuff.

So I've been playing Brian DeMars' Shardless BUG Control deck during the last 3 tournaments at LGS' in the area and have a total record of 8-1-3 (one ID). Each time I play, I'm still learning more about the deck and it's been a blast playing it.

Since I'm not as experienced at playing BUG Control (or control in general), I still feel like I've been sideboarding incorrectly and would like to ask you guys for your thoughts on sideboarding with this deck.

For reference, here's the list:

// Lands
2 [B] Bayou
1 [P2] Forest (1)
2 [A] Underground Sea
2 [R] Tropical Island
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [DDE] Swamp (1)
1 [8E] Island (4)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [P12] Shardless Agent

// Spells
4 [DD2] Ancestral Vision
3 [JGC] Pernicious Deed
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
3 [OD] Ghastly Demise
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [OD] Ghastly Demise
SB: 1 [MBS] Go for the Throat
SB: 2 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 [COM] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 [GPX] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt

=====================================

So far, the most popular deck I've played against is Maverick. Sometimes yeah, you get blown out by them double Wastelanding you with Thalia in play and you never see a land again, but I feel the matchup is generally favorable.

I know it's commonly accepted strategy for blue decks to board out Force of Will against Maverick, but I feel that at least with this deck, when you're on the draw, you really have to have an answer to some of their early threats / bombs while you're developing your manabase and gearing up for wiping their board with a Deed.

On the draw, here's what I've been currently boarding vs Maverick:
-4 Hymn to Tourach
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-2 Vendilion Clique
+1 Ghastly Demise
+1 Go for the Throat
+2 Scavenging Ooze
+2 Umezawa's Jitte
+2 Krosan Grip (I'm torn here between Grip and Nihil Spellbomb. Grip gives you answers to their Sylvan Library and more importantly Choke. It also kills their Jitte and allows you to drop your own. Spellbomb is just great at keeping their Knights in check while giving you a card back).

On the play, I think you can take the Forces out and bring in the Hymns.

I've also been finding myself boarding out Hymns in a lot of matchups (burn, aggro decks) because they dump their hand so quickly. DeMars mentions keeping Hymn in against RUG and bringing in Ooze / Jitte / Spellbomb, but I'm not really certain what cards to cut for those?

Here's my thoughts vs RUG:
-4 Force of Will / Hymn to Tourach (on play, on draw)
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (between their taxing counterspells, REBs, and Wastelands you might not ever get to play him)
-2 Vendilion Clique
+1 Ghastly Demise
+1 Go for the Throat
+2 Scavenging Ooze
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
+2 Umezawa's Jitte

Any suggestions or advice is appreciated!

Well I never played the cascade version so I can just only give my thoughts.

Against maverick:
I would lower the creature count and try to win with deed & Jace. Ooze could come in, because it can beat a knight but tarmogoyf is to weak imo. Since Maverick will try to play around deed, Hymn is good I think. Krosan Grip is pretty narrow (in the future you have Decay anyway). The cards you mention should be handled with discard or counterspells. Force of Will is still decent in some number to support the "crucual" turns.

AGainst RUG:
Deed is weaker and the creature + jitte plan is very strong. Some number of Hymn is alwys good i think... I often did not play them turn 2, but often later. RUG tends to always have cards in hand. Jace and Clique qre weaker options altough clique beeing better to act as a desperate removal for delver/mongoose while carrying jitte in the air.

Yeah I'm really excited for Decay. I think it can replace 1 Ghastly Demise main and probably he GFTT, 1-2 Grips in the side.

I played against the BUG Shardless Agent yesterday with RUG. When he led with an Ancestral Vision I didn't think much of it but I didn't have good clock. So after turn 4 when he started landing Goyf after Goyf and having counters for my own Goyfs it didn't go well for my RUG deck. One match doesn't say a lot but it seems that unless RUG can get a nice tempo really early on BUG can start burying RUG in card advantage and it has stronger cards for the lategame. I tested the regular BUG control matchup as well but without creatures, regular BUG can't press hard enough after a certain threshold and unless it can mana lock RUG the game is around 50-50.

Yeah one thing I've liked about the Shardless version is that while it's not as controlling as the regular version, it's nice to have the option to aggro out if necessary.

Also, I've found that having Tarmogoyf & Shardless Agent (Agent is a fine chump blocker if needed since you're already gaining card advantage off the Cascade anyways) around makes it much easier to survive those early turns when you're being overrun with creatures.

I played the shardless version today on a 60 man tourney. It was a pleasure to play! I give a short report tomorrow, wheather's too nice atm.

Problem I have with Shardles... Cascading intyo Hymn (given opponent has cards) or into Ancestral visions is nuts. But if you cascase into a normal 2 for 1. like getting an additional goyf out of the deal or hit a removal spell for an opponents creature, the 2/2 is actually only relevant if you have a gameplan that requires a bunch of creatures on the board. If you just chumpblock with the 2/2 or have it do nothing until it dies to your own deed, you did not really get a ton of value.

Most of the fair decks will just trump your board presence and you have to deed anyway. Back those days I played the Hymn, Goyf BUG control version, I boarded out goyfs for deed (or played somehow a split). But even if i played with goyf & deed the gamplan was clear of running out deed & discard first and then play the goyf once the coast is clear. I imagine with shardless your are often not able to do that.

The "creatureless" or "deedstill" approach (don't know how to call it best) has a very linear gameplan. Trade/disrupt/[Card advantage] -> Plainswalker takeover. So, want I meant with Shardless suffering the "fancy play syndrome". You play something potentially very powerful suffering from either some setup-costs or low consistency (having a bad/mediocre effect) and at the same time dilluting your game plan creating antisynergies.

Now as you said it is an advantage be flexible in going aggro. I totally agree, but I would achieve that with a sideboard transformation. But still looking forward to hear your experiences. Maybe you just have to play the deck in a different way...

Went 3-0-1 in our local tournament today. Beat Affinity, Uw Miracles (w/ Land Tax), MUC, and drew with Uw Miracle.

My thoughts on the Shardless version is that it plays significantly differently from the more controlling "pure" BUG versions. A lot of your early 1 for 1's are based off of playing Tarmogoyf / Clique / Shardless Agents as roadblocks while generating card advantage through Hymn/Agent early on, then Deed/Jace as the game progresses.

While my opponents will oftentimes have creatures that trump the Agent, they tend to be 1-2 CMC due to the way Legacy just works.

I also often rarely play Shardless Agent on T3, usually waiting until I can control what I'm Cascading into. I think the way Brian DeMars describes it in his article is correct: Don't see it as a generic 2/2, look at it as a 2/2 that gets you <insert card> that also takes 2 spells to fully deal with.

Oftentimes, I'm usually pretty happy just Cascading into a Tarmogoyf. Goyf in this deck actually gets surprisingly large. I fairly commonly get him to 5+ power and I've actually had about 3 games now where I've gotten him up to 7/8.

Sideboarding against control seemed fairly straightforward today:

I went:
-3 Tarmogoyf
-3 Ghastly Demise
+3 Thoughtseize
+1 Vendilion Clique
+2 Krosan Grip

Against UW, with this deck the "sit on Deed, then play a Planeswalker" plan is tougher due to only having 2 Jaces. I tended to focus more on keeping their Tops from being effective while tearing their hands apart with Hymn + Thoughtseize then sticking a creature/Jace to finish them. Also, I did finally get to live the dream of T2 Hymn to Tourach, T4 Snapcaster flashback Hymn to Tourach :)

I went 2-2-0 drop yesterday due to heavy misplays and playing BUG Control the first time. The only BUG I piloted in the Top 8 was TA in the early days. Like Esper said it plays way different with Agents.

First my list with slightly changes:


2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Snuff Out
2 Garruk Relentless
3 Baleful Strix
2 Dismember
1 Sinkhole
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Cursed Totem
SB: 3 Massacre
SB: 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction


First game I beat UW Stoneblade.
Batterskull never was a problem. I stalled with strix and a big goyf (in average power 5 in this deck!) until deed took the token and my guys went for lethal. I didn't even touch the sb.

Second game I lost to GW aggro:
First round I didn't find the deed in time and an early dismender made me bleed in the late game.

SB: +2 totem, +3 massacre, -2 Garruk, -3 snuff out/dismember

Second round I held a risky hand which a wasteland destroyed. Although I had top I never find land and die.

Third game against UW miracle:
First round I beat him down to seven until he stabilizes with terminus and CB/top.
SB: -3 snuffout/dismember,-2 baleful strix, +2 jace, +3 IoK
Second and third round I went the aggro plan disrupting hard, wasting hard, and beat him hard before he knows what happend.

Fourth game against punishing GWr Aggro:
First round I made the mistake to tap out for 3rd turn deed.
He has the GSZ for 2 and one mana left for blowing up my deed with his kitty.
SB: +2 totem, +3 massacre, -2 Garruk, -3 snuff out/dismember
Second round I keep a hand with massacre ftw.
After he tried to control the board and I could trade 4 to 1 I slam down massacre realizing one second later that he had just a karakas and a canopy for W... :eyebrow:
Of course he never fetches for a plains from now on and beats me with elspeth and huntmaster.

After four games I decided to drop cause sunny days like yesterday aren't that often in Germany.

The deck felt great and I surly bring it to a tourney once again with a little bit more testing.

To some of my card choices:
strix was great all day. It gives you the time you need against aggro to stabilize. In worst case it cantrips against control.
The removal package was pure tempo intention for first turn threads like goblins or folks. Abrupt decay could be a great improvement in this slots.
Without snapcaster and demise you don't really have to control what you cascade into cause every possible card is strong and often gamebreaking. My goal in every matchup was a 3rd turn agent.
The sinkhole was the 5th hymn, could be something else imo.
I cut all cards with double U in the main to stabilize the manabase. Wasteland is all around and I don't want to have half my hand uncastable due to a single one.
That was the reason I exchanged jace with garruk. I never really came to cast him cause at the time I could I already won or lost. In this slots I can imagine 2 Tombstalker for more mid game pressure or the new BG planeswalker for the control matchup which is great anyway.

I've found with the Shardless version that it's more heavily dependent on Brainstorm than "normal" BUG. It's a blast to play because of the cascade mechanic, but it requires a bit more setup before just dropping a Shardless, especially because of Ghastly Demise.

Yeah, it's amazing to cascade into a 'goyf, Ancestral, or Hymn, but cascading into a Snapcaster, Brainstorm, Ghastly, or Top can be downright worthless or completely harmful. It doesn't mean I won't play this deck just for the fun aspect, but I think if you really want to win regularly, play the "normal" version of BUG.

Also, Jace is always cool, but cascading through one feels like a gut punch. I have yet to actually land a Jace in my Shardless matches because my first goal is to land the Shardless Agent. I think a 2-of something more cascade-able might be better in that spot. It's definitely a deck worth tweaking more.

Edit: Baleful Strix would be pretty nifty in this deck, and possibly fewer creature-kills.

Most of the time, I don't mind Cascading into Brainstorm or Top since both cards are so powerful (I actually typically love Cascading into Top since you have so many ways to shuffle/filter cards away).

Cascading into Snapcaster isn't terrible as long as you do it with 4 lands - you'll typically at least have a Brainstorm or Ghastly Demise in the yard to flash back.

Again, keep in mind this is also with our worst case scenerio of blind cascading. If you can actually set up and control what you're cascading into, then things start getting really nuts.

I played at home with my friends this past weekend. I never lost a game with the Shardless BUG deck. I tweaked mine from the classic build.

Lands - 23
1 x Island
1 x Forest
1 x Swamp
1 x Academy Ruins
4 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Polluted Delta
4 x Verdant Catacombs
2 x Bayou
2 x Tropical Island
3 x Underground Sea

Enchantments - 3
3 x Pernicious Deed

Creatures - 9
4 x Shardless Agent
4 x Tarmogoyf
1 x Scavenging Ooze

Artifacts - 1
1 x Engineered Explosives

Planeswalkers - 6
2 x Lilianna of the Veil
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 x Vraska the Unseen

Spells - 18
4 x Abrupt Decay (proxy to try them out)
4 x Ancestral Visions
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Hymn to Tourach
2 x Maelstrom Pulse

Abrupt Decay is freaking amazing. It hits everything but Jace and I pack my own Jaces. Cascading into Ancestral Visions, Hymn, Abrupt Decay, Tarmo, or even Brainstorm was a great play all day long. Once I did Cascade into Engineered Explosives but I had Academy Ruins in play so I cast it for free, blew it up, then started recurring.

Every single game, I ripped through my library finding answers whenever I needed them. This deck has so much card advantage, it is crazy. Unfortunately, I never did get to try out Vraska, so no verdict on her yet. Everytime I played Tarmogoyf, he was minimum 5/6. He maxed out at 7/8 because I don't play an Tribal spells.

I am going to try out Baleful Strix. I saw whiley85's list and thought that was an awesome include. Cascading into a Strix would be awesome.

@Zarlen. I think you cannot get away in legacy without a critical amount of cheap removal.

If the cascade plan has so much potential, why not run some kind of midrange deck cutting the deeds and going full blown on the "board presence & card advantag plan" tapping out most of the time. I actually would like to cascade into a baleful strix as well. Deeds could go to the SB. Question is if that is not just a worse Nic Fit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by catmint

@Zarlen. I think you cannot get away in legacy without a critical amount of cheap removal.

If the cascade plan has so much potential, why not run some kind of midrange deck cutting the deeds and going full blown on the "board presence & card advantag plan" tapping out most of the time. I actually would like to cascade into a baleful strix as well. Deeds could go to the SB. Question is if that is not just a worse Nic Fit.

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What is considered a critical amount of cheap removal? In the original list:

// Lands
2 [B] Bayou
1 [P2] Forest (1)
2 [A] Underground Sea
2 [R] Tropical Island
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [DDE] Swamp (1)
1 [8E] Island (4)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [P12] Shardless Agent

// Spells
4 [DD2] Ancestral Vision
3 [JGC] Pernicious Deed
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
3 [OD] Ghastly Demise
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will

There are only 3 removal spells, Ghastly Demise, which depend on your graveyard size and nonblack targets. Also 2 Snapcasters, if you want to recur them.

My list runs 4 Abrupt Decay (which I believe is better than Ghastly Demise). Should I be running other 1 CC removal? I don't know if I should because if I cascade into it without an opponent's creature on the board, it is a loss. Much better to cascade into Abrupt Decay because it can hit more than just creatures (higher chance the opponent has something I can target).

Regarding Baleful Strix vs Snapcaster Mage: I actually saw this in the comments, but DeMars responds to the same question and I came to the same conclusion. Strix is better when you're blind cascading on T3 and flip it. It also doubles as a deterrent against attackers.

Snapcaster is a better attacker because the 2 power vs 1 is significantly more damage and for me, it's much more powerful late game. Against Control, SCM's flash has been very relevant for me in EOT flashing in then attacking opposing Jaces.

In short, the only time I really wanted Strix was during the T3 blind Cascade.

===========================

Re: Ghastly Demise - Most of the time, I'd say Abrupt Decay is better. The main reason I think Ghastly is needed is against T1 Mom/Lackey and we're on the play. Moms we can even ignore if we have a Deed, but the Lackey really requires an answer.

That being said, I would like to try -1 Ghastly, +1 Abrupt Decay from the main and -1 GFTT, -1 or -2 Krosan Grip from the side for Abrupt Decay.

I'm really torn right now on Grip vs Decay in the board since while Decay kills creatures too, I'm not certain the deck needs more post-board creature removal (since it's already running +1 Ghastly, +1 GFTT, 2 Jitte). Grip's selling points are that it deals with Humility/Moat and just kills Batterskulls.

Thoughts?

The matches I had with shardless BUG I actually didn't have time to wait until T4 for casting agent or do some setup to make him good. You weaken your cascading action with snapcaster and demise. Every turn you wait Hymn becomes much less powerful it's one of your keyspells.
Due to cutting a lot cc1 spells you are obviously slower than other builds. Therefore my try to compensate with free removal that doesn't trigger by cascading.

Strix is a fast answer for so many threads i.e. Batterskull.
It felt so great yesterday against RUG when he had 2 mongoose and goyf facing my strix and goyf.
Strix is a bit weaker against control but see my other post control is not the biggest problem you have even with strix.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

In short, the only time I really wanted Strix was during the T3 blind Cascade.

---

Really no offense but your only time is my every time. You need to be faster against aggro, control is much better naturally with all your CA.

I think lackey is not a reason to play demise since you only play 3 and also need a fetch to handle him. Side in some BEBs if you fear Goblins in your meta.

If you ignore a mother because you have deed, than you accept all the other creatures coming into play: Thalia, Knight, Pridemage. Everything will live - your deed plan might fail and you loose the game. I don't think you should ignore a mother.

Blue elemental blast while beeing good versus goblins and burning wish decks is too
narrow. playing control you need answers agains all tribes and all strategies.

My conclusion: If you want to win a fair fight, you cannot ignore a mother or a lakey.

-> Therefore a significant amout of 1cc removal is critical. Also it is also important for snapcaster. You are able generate a tempo advantage by playing more efficient spells...
Decay will be a staple, but you cannot just replace all 1cc removal with it.

This is correct but was not my suggestion. Cc1 removal is replaced by snuff out atm which is 100% faster than demise. Also strix is 30% faster than scm and agent takes profit from it while being 25% faster.