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well, you don't need white lands to use Children. They rarely get cast off lands. You have petals, and can entomb/reanimate them as well. That's almost always what happens. That said, Pull is really quite useful against Surgical. Not advocating cutting white, just wanted to make sure we're all working from the same data set.Quote:
Originally Posted by nudon
Reverent Silence is pretty exciting. I know Mystical Tutor reanimator used to run it (and sometimes it was in the board of later builds when they played the Dryad Arbor plan against Edicts).Quote:
Originally Posted by .dk
Right now trying out this board:
1 Pithing Needle
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Pull from Eternity
2 Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Massacre
1 Reverent Silence
I have 1 Silence main. Obviously for a more graveyard-centric meta, more Surgicals could be warranted. I've also been testing 1 Children main and it's been great. I'm not sure Massacre deserves a spot any more. Things to go in its place might be more Reverent Silences, a Hurkyl's Recall, or something to help with Jund. I still haven't figured out that matchup.
I've had 4 opponents in a row rage-quit on cockatrice. This deck is very disgusting.
Thanks for the clarification since I haven't had the chance to test the deck yet but had been interested in it ever since it gained traction following scg's deck tech a few weeks back, finally culminating in koby's finals appearance.Quote:
Originally Posted by .dk
Congratz on the finish Koby. Deck deserves some recognition, it is a very powerful deck. As for the helm matchup, why talk about reverent silence? Abrupt decay seems infinitely better and that's what I suggest we adapt in our sideboards for the UW helm matchup and such. Abrupt decay is key against UW Helm, if Koby had had access to it at all postboard the game would have been completely different. Only permanents it doesn't kill are jace, humility, helm itself (not that big a deal since it kills the other piece of the combo, RiP, which is public enemy number 1 for us when it hits.) Winning before humility hits isn't unreasonable, and the card isn't that widely played.
I feel that pull from eternity is a sideboard staple at this point. Surgical on griselbrands hurts too much typically, at least in my experience and you have to go for emrakul when it might not even win the game outside of children of korlis beatdown afterward (that was probably the funniest thing I saw on your stream Koby, when you emrakul'ed the opponent then got there with children beatdown. Simply put it was priceless.)
What does decay hit out of UW that we care about that Reverent Silence doesn't? Really, the only things stopping us in that matchup are Rest in Peace and Counterbalance. Outside of that, their permanents are pretty much don't cares. It's very unlikely that they'll have a 4 drop to counter Reverent Silence, so in all likelihood you'll be taking care of at least a RIP or CB, if not both. And it does actually take care of Humility if they drop it. Neither hits Helm or Jace, and effectively neither of them hit Top. I guess I'm not sure what you're destroying with Abrupt Decay in that matchup that Revernt Silence doesn't also hit. And for the measly cost of 6 life in a deck that goes infinite. Decay is a fine card - but I don't think it is even enough against UW Helm because they have 2 enchantments that hit the board relatively frequently. The matchup is just that abysmal. My opinion, obv, and I haven't tested it either way, so it's pure conjecture regardless.
I think I'm also in agreement that Pull from Eternity is needed out of the sideboard. There are just too many decks packing Surgical out there to not want it. I rather like the sideboard Greg just posted - it contains both Decay as well as Reverent Silence, but I might go 2/2 split on those.
/edit Greg - is there a cockatrice server that is still up somewhere!?
I like this idea a lot. What does your mana base look like to support the Bayou(s)?Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
I'm more more interested in persuing the Reverent Silence plan than Abrupt Decay. The two (three) permanents that we care most about are Counterbalance and RIP (and Leyline of the Void), and smarter CB players will not be floating a 4 cc on top of their deck. I am more willing to risk a few blowouts to a top of the deck Jace/Wrath and free up mana to go off instantly right after casting it than durdle around with awkward manabases trying to cast Abrupt Decay. Chain of Vapor solves almost all the deck's problems as it stands, and Reverent Silence will capture the 10% matchups. It also means that the manabase can be left intact (+1 Bayou -1 Swamp?) and still be able to cast R.Silence.
Right now (and experience with the deck from SCG Vegas) I would go -1 Marsh Flats +1 Bayou, then adjust the SB to account for Reverent Silence x2 for the CB matchup. I'm not absolutely sure we even want/need this considering that Jund/ADecay have done a fantastic job of suppressing CB/top decks from the mainstay, but I feel like Jack's performance (coupled with Joe's performance alongside) will revitalize the popularity of Miracles archetype.
Basically, I feel that the cat is out of the bag one way or another, and the coming weeks will be strife for Tin Fins in tournament performance as people adjust to adding more G/Y hate.
1 Marsh Flats for Bayou makes sense if you're going to run Reverent Silence. I don't think we want to give up the basic land in the tempo/wasteland matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
The good news is that I think outside of Rest in Peace, we're actually set up pretty well to handle most graveyard hate. Both inherently with instant speed reanimation, as well as Pull from Eternity and Chain of Vapor. But yeah, I think people are going to know what we're up to at this point.
Joe Losset is a machine with Miracles - even if more people pick up the deck, it's not like they're going to be piloting it at the same level that he does. (he crushed me at SCG Denver when I was on Tin Fins with Burning Wish last year).
I've yet to play this deck against Jund - it seems great on paper to me, but I've seen Greg's accounts that it's not so hot. Any others have any experiences? We managed to get our first local Jund player (Richard Cheese ironically), so maybe I'll get a chance to play some games.
You guys are on Daily MTG.
Thanks, Koby! Ya just had to make the Finals, huh? Put the Sabre-Tooth back in the bag.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Yeah, that's not happening.
Oh well. I just wanted to advocate for trying to add to the pre-combo consistency at the cost of a little post-combo reassurance.
Namely, going down to 1 CoK (which seems to be gaining momentum) and only 1 Chrome Mox. What you chose to replace those cards with is less important than the concept. I choose to add 1x Careful Study and a 15th land, but I realize opinions vary. Even when I have Chrome Mox in my starting 7, I'm usually hesitant to cast it, because I can rarely afford to part with another card.
That's reasonable. I've only played against prison-type decks a couple times since I put Abrupt Decay in, and for the most part I wasn't able to use them effectively. In one match, Blood Moon shut off all my lands so I ended up just ritualing Griselbrand off my 1 Petal with a Decay rotting in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I just tested 10 games or so against Alphastryk playing RiP Miracles and got demolished. The only preboard and postboard games I won were off a turn 1 and him not having Force. His board has 2-3 Meddling Mage and a Canonist as well as a couple Cliques, so he's especially hateful to combo, but I feel like we're maybe 20% against a good player. It felt that awful.
I never drew Abrupt Decay and had it be relevant, but I did draw Reverent Silence once and have it do nothing against his Meddling Mage. Massacre was an useful effect to have access to, but he was able to Force or Counterbalance it if was ever relevant.
My boarding was -4 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Chrome Mox, -1 Reanimate, +3 Abrupt Decay, +2 Massacre, +1 Reverent Silence. I wanted to try the TES plan of having answers to his hate and hoping he doesn't have a clock.
It actually felt very similar to why we lose to Jund - they just have too diverse and powerful a set of cards to play through.
So Koby, you definitely could be right that if it's not fantastic against Prison and it's not enough against Miracles, AD might not be worth the Gemstone Mine awkwardness.
.dk - there's a server on play.woogerworks.com. It has a decent number of people on it.
dameus - think about Chrome Mox as a basic land that you get to play for free on your combo turn. It's awkward to draw in multiples, but it is Wasteland-proof. If you're playing 15 lands that might be less of an issue though.
Exactly. CUtting the white only means cutting Silence (for more discard/probe) and Tundra/Scrub.Quote:
Originally Posted by .dk
I don't really think we need Pull against Surgical. We ran 7/9 reanimate spell which allow us to double reanimate in response. That is why 1) I always keep Probe g2/g3 to see if I can combo off without having double reanimate spell 2) I always let Reanimate MD since it costs less mana to cast Reaniamte + SHallow/Goryo in response.
Basically, everytime I boarded Pull I feel it more like a gadget and I would have prefered to have one more bounce or discard, and surely more answers against UW/RiP/CB
My go for Pull would be if people start to board Extirpate if they can run or splash black, which kinda annihilates the deck...
my 2cts
After finally discovering my membership activation in my spam filter :rolleyes: I also want to congratulate Koby to his second place. I know the feeling of losing against my own deck which I borrowed someone for local community support too good.
When CalebD played this deck it took my attention but it was Koby's stream which conviced me to give at a try. So it was nice to see him doing well.
Do you consider the Cantrip discussion to be solved? I think there are at least two more Cantrips that could be discussed.
Thought Scour: I think Thought Scour has some advantages over Carefull Study. It fills as much cards in your graveyard as Carefull Study but without attacking your hand. After it is an instant and can target a player it creates some plays that this deck previously didn't have. For example Thought Scour can get rid of a card your opponent Brainstormed away in response to your discard spell. The disadvantage on the other side is that you have no control which cards go to your graveyard, at least not without a previous Brainstorm.
Strategic Planning: Strategic Planning on the other hand is a Ponder effect where you take the card you want into your hand and the cards you don't want, or that you want in the graveyard, into your graveyard. The disadvantages however are the missing shuffle effect and the CMC of 2. But if everything is working as intended Strategic Planning is the only card that can get you a creature card in the graveyard and a reanimation spell in the hand at the same time.
Both cards however will most likely require to play 4 Griselbrand to make sure you hit something. After I just started to play the deck I don't fell able to make a decision right now if the advantages justify the disadvantages but at least it seems worth discussing.
Regarding the Miracles Match Up discussion, I think it is necessary to be able to deal with Counterbalance and Rest in Peace at the same time. Both cards have the ability to blow you out completly and at least after boarding Miracles play at least three copies from both cards while the Abrupt Decay boards discusst here only have two.This makes it likely that miracles have both cards before you have one Decay. Reverent Silence might be an idea. If you don't want a four colour mana base did you consider Tempest of Light as an alternative? CMC 3 is for the current Miracles builds not the easiest to hit CMC with Counterbalance. At Instant speed you can play it on your opponents turn before you try to go off on your following turn.
Thought Scour isn't a terrible idea. Brainstorm hiding stuff can be a pretty big pain in the ass, but I feel like it only really happens on our turn 1 in response to discard, so I'm not sure how often we'll also have the Petal and the Thought Scour ready to punish them.
Strategic planning is something .dk and I have looked at, but the mana cost and the dollar cost were both prohibitive of doing much real testing.
As far as Tempest of Light, what I've found in the UW matchup is that if you don't go off quickly, RiP and Counterbalance generally buy them enough time to sculpt their hand to have plenty of answers. Tempest has the same issue as Reverent Silence, where they probably can't hit it with Counterbalance, but by the time you find it, Brainstorm and Top have found force or Spell Pierce or Counterspell. Sometimes it feels like Needle on Top hurts them more than anything, they don't really have an answer to it outside Detention Sphere, but then you still have the sheer joy of running into blind flips and Brainstorms.
I may be missing something, but, if the deck can consistently win within turn 3 without disruption. It only basically looses to fast graveyard hate like Rest in Peace, or faster combos. ...what exactly is wrong squeezing in a few main deck Spell Pierces and answering these problem cards on the stack?
Aside from sideboard Abrupt Decays if they have Force of Will your in equal trouble with any other permanent hate.
Being reactive by its nature means being slower, as there are now dead pieces in place of combo pieces, or in place of cantripping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freggle
Discard is the best use thus far, and it's quite unfortunate that we cannot do anything about Brainstorm hide + mainphase RIP.
Only thing that I see is petal plus silence on their upkeep... but it's certainly not the optimal play...Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
All of your "answers" discussed are reactive and non-combo enablers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I'm not advocating the removal of discard (a combo enabler), but I see some lists with Silence, Unmask, Gitaxian Probe, chrome mox... It might be worth while to see what you commonly board out, and try them there. Or just try a few in the board if you want the main lean and mean. It is likely people will run right into them trying to race their hate out before you "go off."
Discard is very efficient, but can not stop top decks nor Brainstorm hides. Pierce can many times be a timewalk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freggle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I'm a little unclear at the progression of ideas presented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freggle
The deck has unmatched raw power when left to its own devices. This much is evident and the reason for picking up this deck.
As you stated, it is soft to fast combo (Belcher, Rogue Hermit, TES, etc), Counterbalance, and continuous exiling effects (Leyline & RIP).
Against the first, being able to out-protect will mean winning on the back of Silence -- this was added a few weeks ago to positive results.
Against the second, winning fast enough to not allow Counterbalance to get online means playing more artificial mana sources (Dark Ritual, Chrome Mox, and Lotus Petal). It implies that aggressive mulliganning or early discard will achieve good results.
Against the latter, bounce provides the best mana:effect ratio.
When RIP and Counterbalance are combined (as popular in UW Miracles), troubles arise for a completely different concern: Force of Will.
Thus, suggesting Spell Pierce to reactively fight both of the enchantments is IMO the wrong approach and strains the manabase and style of the deck. It further complicates the vulnerability of dead draws even moreso than Mox, Silence, and Abrupt Decay do; and requires leaving mana up at possibly inopportune times.
In many decks that feature Chrome Mox, I will board them out against Counterbalance since they provide little to no function unless in a really good hand that can go off right now. Let's consider my SB from the finals vs Jack Colwell:
-2 Chrome Mox
-1 Children of Korlis
-1 Reanimate
-2 Gitaxian Probe
+2 Chain of Vapor
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Hurkyl's Recall
+1 Echoing Trurth
Thus maintaining the complete minimum of combo finish, but eliminating Mox as a both a dead and unnecessary card; trimming a useless Reanimate vs RIP; and shaving Probe to find room for more powerful cards.
Abrupt Decay could have been useful, but I elected to be soft to this matchup at the expense of being more stable with the mana base. I specifically mentioned it leading into the event. I fail to see where I would implement Spell Pierce in this sideboard plan, let alone find enough room to play a meaningful number of those spells. What would you suggest to cut in the SB to fit Spell Pierce? What would you suggest to cut from the maindeck to bring them in?
EDIT -- completely off topic...
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...8&iddeck=61187
WOW! :eek:
Koby i'm not quite up to speed as to what all the cards in the Sideboard function as in each match-up, but i'm eyeing-up from your sideboard the following (the bold ones):Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pull from Eternity
2 Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Massacre
I think you can shave or cut any of those to squeeze in 3 Spell Pierce
Then vs. Miracles I would board:
- 2 Chrome Mox
-1 Children of Korlis
-1 Silence
+3 Spell Pierce
+1 Surgical Extraction or +1 Chain of Vapor (test pending, likely Vapor)
The Probe it too valuable to cut let you know how to play your T1 if you have discard / counter magic option. It also enables the combo better.
On the play no probe I'd lead with discard.
On the draw no probe I'd lead with Pierce.