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That's what I thought too, but you play against RUG. And if they have 1-2 Stifle and 1-2 Wastelands, you will be blown out way too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by zulander
That is my problem with Groves for Punishing Fire. Your mana is not stable, and an easy match-up becomes a problem.
I was thinking 22 lands in the non pun fire builds. With pun fire I think 23 is a necessisity. Im tweaking between build types and I need to test more, but it seems like the deck floods a little in the non pun fire builds. Pun fire is a mana hog that can justify almost any mana base, but i think the non pun jund could tighten up at 22. I agree with cutting Bob=madness. Isnt he a big reason we play this deck?
I like that generally my opponents see Grove of Burnwillows as a big threat. In the last two tourneys I took part in, whenever my opponent have wastelands to fire, they go straight to Grove, and then my duals remain intact. Of course Stiffle still proves to be a problem. I just like that Grove is preferred over duals.
I play 24 lands so I can use a full playset of wastelandsQuote:
Originally Posted by defector
offtopic: Jesus, watching Zac Hill go nuts over the creatures in Ali's block reminds me of why he hates cards that you can't turn sideways /rant
At 24 lands your running the Punishing Fires version correct? I think that deck is pretty safe from flooding as it always seems to want to make a land drop. I agree with the full set of wasteland, I never leave home without them:)
yea, the pf version. I consider it to be the superior version currently than other non-pf buildsQuote:
Originally Posted by defector
How do you guys board against Mircles? What about stone blade?
+3 Rebs
+Krosan Grip
+2 Surgical Extraction
maybe +1 Maelstrom Pulse too.
Prolly side out the Punishing kit. They are means to deal with Snapcaster/Vendillion/Stoneforges but those 3 are never in crazy quantities. On a second thought maybe discards could go instead, since we can still Surgically extract whatever ponders and what not they might use losing therefore just one card instead of two (discard+SE). Not to mention discards are sort of a bad draw in the late game. So... on a second thought, yeah, prolly would take out first the Thoughtseizes, then Liliana. HtT is perfectly fine because they do a number in the early game.
Miracles:
Helm
-3 Bolt
-2 Hymn
+4 REB
+1 Chain of Mephisto
Blade:
-2 Lili
-2 Hymn
+ 2 Surgical/Rakdos Charm
+ 1 Ancient Grudge
+ 1 Chain of Mephisto
I like punishing Kit against them. More so against Esper Stoneblade. Assembling Early Grove + Fire wins u the game preboard against esper. As long as you take care of extraction and/or needle, it's a stroll.
The prob with hymn against miracles are that the only thing that they can do to hurt you is misdirected hymn. Keep your decay for helm and you are in good shape. So unless you are very sure that you wont see misdirection, probably it's a good idea to take them out opposite say Thoughtseize.
Against Esper, Sometimes its just too late. They don't play like your typical blue decks post board. REB isn't very good because I don't see target apart from Clique that I want to REB. If they keep the Jace, probably you can outskill them.
Im assuming you mean RIP not Helm for the AD target. I keep ts blade to fight sfm and hymn vs miracles to jam 2:1 vs them. Mis D is risky but i think its worth the risk. Lilli really hurts miracles, im all in on her in that mu not so much vs blade.
Yup, RIP.Quote:
Originally Posted by defector
I felt the matchup against miracles is so so favorable that It's not worth risking the hymn. I felt it's a win more and if it's misdirected, it's very2 painful.
What will miracles board against Jund?
Probably they'll board out their Forces for pierces and bomb (humility-ish). Therefore I'm in the opinion that hymn will either resolve (meaning hitting random instead of specific bomb or pierced or -god forbid- misdirected. Whereas REB can at least hit their brainstorm/jace.
And 1 more against blade. Probably if you feel like it, life from the loam is decent choice. probably cut a land for it. Esper is so colour heavy that they can't always afford to fetch basic (not against deathblade tho). Cheap win is always good.
4 goyf
4 bob
4 Drs
3 BBE
3 thoughtseize
1 Inq
3 hymn
3 abrupt
3 pfires
3 bolt
3 liliana
1 gurruk relentless
1 loam
3 wasteland
3 grove
9 fetch
3 basic
3 badland
2 bayou
1 taiga
Side
2 E plauge
2 thorn of amethest
1 jitte
2 k grips
3 p blast
1 chains
1 abrupt
1 golgari charm
1 pulse
So I plan to run this at an up coming SCG I haven't been to one in about a year and last time I played at an scg I was on Junk. Any advice or suggestions on main and side would be appreciated. I am a bit unsure on my mana base if I should be running the 4 th grove or wasteland and I think my side needs work to be up to par for a big tournament. Anyway please provide constructive feedback thanks in advance.
That list looks fine. Id cut 1 fetch for a wasteland, 8 fetch is fine and i think waste should be a 4 of. Good luck in the scg!
That, and I'd prefer a 4th Abrupt Decay instead of a single Inquisition
Has anyone else been unhappy with the 1cc discard slots? It seems they're only in the main for control, and I'd rather remove that slot to shore up the tempo matchup. Anyone else feel the same way? Who else notices that they seem to be boarding out thoughtseize more than they'd like?
The single inq is there because I don't own a 4th thoughtseize and I do like abrupt a lot but dropping to 3 1cmc discard i am not sure on that. I was also considering dropping gurruk for pulse main. And I see a lot of lists run 3 duress side would that be better than some of my SB cards?
The reason for the SB Duresses are because of the combo matchup, to give you more chances to discard turn 1 Show and Tell/Sneak Attack/ANT/TES/Reanimator cards. I think it's strongly advised to do so.
Zulander, what would you consider using instead of TS? I don't really board it out in most matches. Also, see above - Combo matchups which are our demise.
Thoughtseize is pretty good in the combo matchup, it's "okay" in the control matchup, and is just less than stellar in the tempo/aggro matchups. What I'm thinking of is -4 TS, +4 other card that's good in the tempo/aggro category. I'm not sure what that is right now though.
I don't see a problem with wanting to set my main up best against tempo/control decks and just completely scoop to combo game 1 and board in 8-10 cards for the combo matchup.
EDIT: I think my larger frustration has to be with Liliana. I think it's time for her to sit in the sideboard.
Here's what my most recent list looks like
Creatures: 18
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf
Disruption: 18
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Taurach
4 Abrupt Decay
Other: 2
2 Sylvan Library
Lands: 22
You'll notice the inclusion of 2 Grims and 2 Forked Bolts. These 4 help tremendously against Tempo, Control (grim is amazing here), and (tribal) aggro decks. I've found that Liliana wasn't doing enough, and that she just wasn't as powerful as she could be. She isn't capable of taking truly taking over games. You'll also notice that this list doesn't include any card over 2CC (excluding BBE) so as to not succumb to waste/stifle openings.
I'm starting to truly see the power of DRS by using his black ability as aggressively as possible. Against BUG/RUG decks you have to proactively remove their GY so as to stop their goyfs/geese/stalkers. Doing so wont always win you the race against their delvers but the inclusion of 8 R spells that can dispose of their delvers you should be fine there.
Also I've noticed many players make some mid-game mistakes against stifle decks by over-extending their lands (yes, there is such a thing). When combating stifle decks patience is a virtue not only in when to fetch, but also in when to play a land. After 2-3 turns it's okay to intentionally miss land drops (esp if DRS is in play) so as to alter your opponents game plan. Imagine you're playing a stifle tempo deck and your Jund opponent has 4 lands in play, are you really going to stifle his next fetch land (5th land for him) or are you going to try and catch his DRS/Goyf/cascade/bob trigger? Chances are they would rather save the stifle for a later, more critical moment in the game. This reason is why I never play more than my 3rd land of the game against stifle tempo. Baiting them into stifling a fetch when you already have 2 lands in play and have another in hand is a much better play for jund than opening up their stifles to board state triggers. I could be wrong here, but it's pretty crappy for the tempo player to stifle your fetch only for you to play another one/two lands the following turns.
You say that lilianna doesn't take over games? I can see it not taking over games in the game match up but combined with a single piece of removal, lilianna does nothing but work. She's amazing against any deck in the format and helps us get rid of those pesky hex proof creatures or just an opposing goyf with a reusable, relevant ability. I've been running a single life from the loam in the main and one in the sideboard which helps sure up a lot of game ones in the midrange vs. midrange matchups and helps fuel lilianna in the control matchups where they just can't keep up with either recurring wasteland or lilianna +1s.