[Primer] Elves!

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Originally Posted by nudon

It seems like people are struggling with RUG more now than in the past. Part of the reason for that is due to the inclusion of NO. RUG is problematic when they land a t1 delver with counters and bolts in hand. It's unlikely to be able to get NO past a good RUG player. I personally would board: -4 NO, -1 viridian shaman, +3 decay, +1 ooze, +1 arbor. The decays help deal with flipped delvers and grim lavamancer (if they have it). Sure you lose the game-ending ability of NO but you're favored if the game goes late anyways. Tight play and symbiote/visionary recursion should allow you to stabilize.

I don't think golgari charm will work for the same reasons we don't play counterspells. It's far too reactive in a deck that wants to tap out every turn.

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I 100% agree that NO should come out against Delver. It's a mana denial deck also playing Daze, Spell Pierce, and removal.

I agree to an extent with the comment re: Golgari Charm and being reactive (so is Abrupt Decay...) while needing to tap out, however, I've found in testing other random builds (blue for spell pierce, flusterstorm) and such that having cards like Deathrite/Manadorks and Quirion/Birchlore in particular allow you to appear "tapped out" while still having access to mana for such things as Golgari Charm/Abrupt Decay that almost always come as a surprise.

I wouldn't necessarily bring in the Charms against RUG. I mostly wanted them against Deathblade and Sneak and Show, and maybe even OmniTell just to have *something* to bring in against them besides discard.

But, assuming I do bring in Charm, I'd likely play as normal until the turn before they are most likely to go for the boardwipe. Then just sit on enough mana to make my play. Against RUG, this isn't the best idea as they have all kinds of stupid countermagic. But against Pyroclasm from Show and Tell or Verdict from Deathblade, this seems like something worth exploring. Maybe? I actually have very good records against both those decks right now so I dunno what I'm worried about. The Charm just gives us lots of game against a bunch of decks and I'm kinda excited to try them out.

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Originally Posted by Absolutflipz

I 100% agree that NO should come out against Delver. It's a mana denial deck also playing Daze, Spell Pierce, and removal.

I agree to an extent with the comment re: Golgari Charm and being reactive (so is Abrupt Decay...) while needing to tap out, however, I've found in testing other random builds (blue for spell pierce, flusterstorm) and such that having cards like Deathrite/Manadorks and Quirion/Birchlore in particular allow you to appear "tapped out" while still having access to mana for such things as Golgari Charm/Abrupt Decay that almost always come as a surprise.

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Yes, quirion, birchlore, and symbiote can trick your opponent into a false sense of security (like with decay). However, the difference between abrupt decay and golgari charm is that abrupt decay can still be cast the following turn. If you're using golgari charm in order to "counter" a sweeper, you are potentially double dazing yourself every turn.

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Originally Posted by danyul

I wouldn't necessarily bring in the Charms against RUG. I mostly wanted them against Deathblade and Sneak and Show, and maybe even OmniTell just to have *something* to bring in against them besides discard.

But, assuming I do bring in Charm, I'd likely play as normal until the turn before they are most likely to go for the boardwipe. Then just sit on enough mana to make my play. Against RUG, this isn't the best idea as they have all kinds of stupid countermagic. But against Pyroclasm from Show and Tell or Verdict from Deathblade, this seems like something worth exploring. Maybe? I actually have very good records against both those decks right now so I dunno what I'm worried about. The Charm just gives us lots of game against a bunch of decks and I'm kinda excited to try them out.

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SnT can play pyroclasm as early as turn 2 while deathblade can play explosives turn 2 and verdict turn 3. If you want charm for its versatility, then it might be worth exploring. However if you're using it as a response to sweepers, I have my doubts.

I hear you there. But I'm not really worried about a turn two wipe. I don't think I would lose that much. I'm speaking more about protecting myself once I've built up a certain number of dudes. Deciding when to hold back mana to protect the team at that point is a little unclear and may indeed require me to Daze myself. I have no idea. There is a bigger tourney this Saturday and I'll try them out. I'll report back with results, if any.

This could be as bad as my Reverent Silence idea.

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Originally Posted by nudon

Yes, quirion, birchlore, and symbiote can trick your opponent into a false sense of security (like with decay). However, the difference between abrupt decay and golgari charm is that abrupt decay can still be cast the following turn. If you're using golgari charm in order to "counter" a sweeper, you are potentially double dazing yourself every turn.



SnT can play pyroclasm as early as turn 2 while deathblade can play explosives turn 2 and verdict turn 3. If you want charm for its versatility, then it might be worth exploring. However if you're using it as a response to sweepers, I have my doubts.

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I don't think you're Double-Dazing yourself at all. Postboard you dont want to over-extend as it is, so not throwing everything out as possible is just in-line with your plan, anyway.

It is a fact that sweepers are prevalent and incredibly good against the deck. I don't know of any proactive card that helps against this, other than playing with sweepers in mind and using cards like Ooze which are great afterward. A reactive card like G. Charm is about as best I can see for counteracting such a big problem, and it's practically as cheap as it gets for one.

The fact that if you do resolve the Charm in response to Verdict, Clasm, Rough/Tumble, EE you're probably going to win I think is telling that it is worth a shot.

Add in the utility for enchanment-removal and sublte uses in the mirror and elsewhere for the -1/-1 (remember you could play around it in a sense by a) being the person with it in hand, and b) utilizing deathrite and sentinel moreso which are X/2s).

This is no cure-all to the deck, which I hope it's not coming across as, but I'm going to try it out.

Edit: Reverent Silence being a Sorcery and only against Enchantments makes it much worse, imo.

@Daniel: Sounds good, I'll look forward to your results.

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Originally Posted by Absolutflipz

I don't think you're Double-Dazing yourself at all. Postboard you dont want to over-extend as it is, so not throwing everything out as possible is just in-line with your plan, anyway.

It is a fact that sweepers are prevalent and incredibly good against the deck. I don't know of any proactive card that helps against this, other than playing with sweepers in mind and using cards like Ooze which are great afterward. A reactive card like G. Charm is about as best I can see for counteracting such a big problem, and it's practically as cheap as it gets for one.

The fact that if you do resolve the Charm in response to Verdict, Clasm, Rough/Tumble, EE you're probably going to win I think is telling that it is worth a shot.

Add in the utility for enchanment-removal and sublte uses in the mirror and elsewhere for the -1/-1 (remember you could play around it in a sense by a) being the person with it in hand, and b) utilizing deathrite and sentinel moreso which are X/2s).

This is no cure-all to the deck, which I hope it's not coming across as, but I'm going to try it out.

Edit: Reverent Silence being a Sorcery and only against Enchantments makes it much worse, imo.

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Against combo and tempo decks, you often have to tap out during the first few turns or risk falling too far behind. If they're playing sweepers instead of their bombs, then it's likely you'll reach the late-game where you're heavily favored.

Against control decks, the best answer in my opinion is already part of your main deck. I'll often want to play visionary (replaces itself) or symbiote (protects others) on turn 2 to avoid getting blown out by a sweeper while still threatening to combo next turn. With golgari charm, you won't be able to freely tap out for visionary/symbiote recursion. Personally, I'd rather take my chances with cabal therapy (though I don't think it's necessary) or other discard before relying on charm to combat sweepers. Yes, resolving charm is probably going to blow out your opponent. However, you might be playing around something that isn't even there. Like I said, the versatility is nice but I don't see it being better than the options already in the deck for fighting sweepers. Let me know how your testing goes though in case I'm wrong.

On another note, I feel less is more when boarding against fair decks. Replacing elves with spells really dilutes glimpse and NO.

[QUOTE=nudon;741077]@Daniel: Sounds good, I'll look forward to your results.



Against combo and tempo decks, you often have to tap out during the first few turns or risk falling too far behind. If they're playing sweepers instead of their bombs, then it's likely you'll reach the late-game where you're heavily favored.

Against control decks, the best answer in my opinion is already part of your main deck. I'll often want to play visionary (replaces itself) or symbiote (protects others) on turn 2 to avoid getting blown out by a sweeper while still threatening to combo next turn. With golgari charm, you won't be able to freely tap out for visionary/symbiote recursion. Personally, I'd rather take my chances with cabal therapy (though I don't think it's necessary) or other discard before relying on charm to combat sweepers. Yes, resolving charm is probably going to blow out your opponent. However, you might be playing around something that isn't even there. Like I said, the versatility is nice but I don't see it being better than the options already in the deck for fighting sweepers. Let me know how your testing goes though in case I'm wrong.

On another note, I feel less is more when boarding against fair decks. Replacing elves with spells really dilutes glimpse and NO.[/QUOTE

Will do.

And I dont think you should be combo-focused against decks like Delver-variants, and NO should be coming out of the deck. You're bringing in Thorn effects and they have Spell Pierce, Daze, Wasteland, Stifle, and removal which makes NO miserable.

i'm surprised that the RUG matchup is being discussed so much and nobody mentioned graveyard hate. If you manage to play a rest in peace against them they will never win except for delver.

So i would side in rest in peace and abrupt decay. Decay delver, then play everything you can before rest in peace to bait counters. Once you resolve it you shouldn't lose. An alternative can be relic of progenitus, which is cheaper and makes you draw a card, but rest in peace is more impactful.

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Originally Posted by LeoCop 90

i'm surprised that the RUG matchup is being discussed so much and nobody mentioned graveyard hate. If you manage to play a rest in peace against them they will never win except for delver.

So i would side in rest in peace and abrupt decay. Decay delver, then play everything you can before rest in peace to bait counters. Once you resolve it you shouldn't lose. An alternative can be relic of progenitus, which is cheaper and makes you draw a card, but rest in peace is more impactful.

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Deathrite + Scavenging Ooze. I feel like pure graveyard hate is mediocre as you can only side so many cards and they need to be impactful and have a board presence. Rest in Peace and Relic also kinda ruins your own Deathrite, Ooze, too, which is no good.

Thoughts on boarding against Shardless BUG?

Thorn Effects seem ehh against a Deathrite deck. Discard doesn't seem strong.

Scavenging Ooze and Card Advantage cards are what we should be looking at I'd say given their amount of removal and Hymns. Abrupt Decay is ok.

Do you try to get lucky with NO into Progenitus, even tho they have 1-3x Liliana and NO can be card disadvantage? Does BUG cut Liliana postboard cuz she's not that great against us?

Play around Massacre by bouncing your Savannah before their main phase in some spots?

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Originally Posted by LeoCop 90

i'm surprised that the RUG matchup is being discussed so much and nobody mentioned graveyard hate. If you manage to play a rest in peace against them they will never win except for delver.

So i would side in rest in peace and abrupt decay. Decay delver, then play everything you can before rest in peace to bait counters. Once you resolve it you shouldn't lose. An alternative can be relic of progenitus, which is cheaper and makes you draw a card, but rest in peace is more impactful.

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Wouldn't Scavenging Ooze be better here on the principle that it's tutorable, maindeckable if the meta calls for it, and a beater even when he's not in the active "graveyard hate" role?

Also shutting down our own Deathrites seems a touch contrary to the overall plan of our deck. If I was going to run grave hate (Thats not ooze) against a deck I think I would rather Leyline of the void. If its in your opening hand its great and mana is not the greatest issue in the world for this deck. Also it does not shut off your own grave and thats helpful.

I didn't know Shardless BUG decks played Massacre now. I have always considered that deck a bye. Did you just lose to that card the one time or is this a recurring problem?

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Originally Posted by danyul

I didn't know Shardless BUG decks played Massacre now. I have always considered that deck a bye. Did you just lose to that card the one time or is this a recurring problem?

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Massacre is played now and even moreso they play multiple copies of Golgari Charm.


Check out the SCG Invi lists and GerrryT's latest article and list.

I'm surprised its been a bye for you. They have cheap disruption, hymn, fow, and mass removal.

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Originally Posted by Absolutflipz

Thoughts on boarding against Shardless BUG?

Thorn Effects seem ehh against a Deathrite deck. Discard doesn't seem strong.

Scavenging Ooze and Card Advantage cards are what we should be looking at I'd say given their amount of removal and Hymns. Abrupt Decay is ok.

Do you try to get lucky with NO into Progenitus, even tho they have 1-3x Liliana and NO can be card disadvantage? Does BUG cut Liliana postboard cuz she's not that great against us?

Play around Massacre by bouncing your Savannah before their main phase in some spots?

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-1 hoof, -1 quirion ranger, -2 heritage druid, +1 progenitus (4 NO md), +1 ooze, +1 harmonic sliver, +1 dryad arbor

Ooze and harmonic sliver can be substituted for 2 abrupt decays depending how you feel. Doesn't really matter though because this matchup is a bye. FoW is their only counterspell and they don't have much of a clock. They simply can't beat progenitus too. Liliana only kills progenitus if you're really sloppy. You should not need savannah in this matchup so massacre is useless.

I'm looking at Gerry T's list from the Invitational right now and the scariest things I see are 2x Golgari Charm. Their answers are all generally more expensive than our threats. And their clock is slow enough that we have an opportunity to recover from discard.

I'd probably just bring in Abrupt Decays and Scooze #2 (I have 1 main). You may have just been getting god-handed by them. Do you have any specific play-by-plays you can share? That might help us see where you are having problems.

Edit - unrelated, but I was messing with a Modern deck and saw a card that could be interesting to use - Defense Grid. Is there any merit to this card? Or am I trying to be too cute?

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Originally Posted by danyul

Edit - unrelated, but I was messing with a Modern deck and saw a card that could be interesting to use - Defense Grid. Is there any merit to this card? Or am I trying to be too cute?

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I like City of Solitude when going down this path. I do not feel like this card really helps us over any other card we already play though and do not see what we would cut for it. Its cute yes, but not really strong enough to kick another card from the sideboard.

If you fear sweeper you can also try crazy stuff like proclamation of rebirth (easy with w-splash), it also works against chalice, trinisphere and with a bit luck countertop-lock. You get 3 dudes and maybe can use mana effects like heritage or birchlore.

I like the G.Charm in the SB. Gets rid of stuff. But now that we look at that, should we rethink our ways?

K.Grip used to be in the SB. Should we dedicate a slot to it again? Or the modes of the charms are better than the uncounterability

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Originally Posted by fisharu

Wouldn't Scavenging Ooze be better here on the principle that it's tutorable, maindeckable if the meta calls for it, and a beater even when he's not in the active "graveyard hate" role?

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It is better as an overall sideboard card, but if i think of a card against rug rest in peace is better. Ooze only eats creatures, so goyf will lose only one point,and mongoose can be a 3/3 aniway. With rest in peace goyf is a 0/1 and mongoose a 1/1 forever. Ooze can also be hit by submerge.

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Originally Posted by Dice Box

Also shutting down our own Deathrites seems a touch contrary to the overall plan of our deck. If I was going to run grave hate (Thats not ooze) against a deck I think I would rather Leyline of the void. If its in your opening hand its great and mana is not the greatest issue in the world for this deck. Also it does not shut off your own grave and thats helpful.

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Leyline doesn't affect our graveyard wich is better for deathrite, but worse for tarmogoyf. it depends if you think is more important to shrink their goyfs or to keep your deathrite active. Aniway leyline costs 2BB so if you don't have it in the opening is quite inefficient and doesn't remove cards that are already in graveyards when it enters the battlefield.



Overall I think you are underestimating the power of rest in peace against rug: once it resolves they only have 4 cards in their deck to try winning.
Maybe it is not a good choice for our sideboard in general, but against rug i really can't think of anything better.

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Originally Posted by Md. Ghost

If you fear sweeper you can also try crazy stuff like proclamation of rebirth (easy with w-splash), it also works against chalice, trinisphere and with a bit luck countertop-lock. You get 3 dudes and maybe can use mana effects like heritage or birchlore.

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Immortal Servitude ? Patriarch's Bidding? They all are too mana intensive, i suppose.