[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

I enjoyed the TNT decklists a few years back (pre-Innistrad), since I liked the threat density that comes with Burning Wish, but I disliked the compromised manabase and color requirements of TES (which I have never been able to do well with).

I've decided to take a break from playing fair after doing so for some larger tournaments, and I took ANT to two weeklies (a list very similar to Adam Prosak's). I was dismissive of the list initially, because I could not imagine playing only 4 tutor effects, but I managed to go 8-0 against Miracles, Goblins, Elves x2, Bant, UR Delver, Jund, and RUG Delver.

A couple observations from my perspective as a storm player who has returned for a 3-year hiatus to play these newer variants:
1) The addition of Gitaxian Probe makes it allows for a lot of "easy mode" games where you would previously have to guess about what you were willing to play into. The fact that it gets us closer to threshold, digs further for no mana off Past in Flames, and more cheaply enables tricks involving Brainstorm + LED (with Tutor/business on top) is just gravy.
2) Past in Flames is absolutely ridiculous in this deck. I occasionally miss not being able to rebuy Lion's Eye Diamond with IGG, but Past in Flames is so much safer against blue decks. The flashback is surprisingly relevant if you're able to generate a ton of mana and your first attempt gets countered, but also if you need to bin Lion's Eye Diamond to enable the card. There are also a ton of games where I need to play Past in Flames in desperation mode without access to a tutor, and I'm able to eventually find the win by sequencing cantrips.
3) 12 cantrips + 4 probes + 4 Infernal Tutor still does not provide the "business density" that you get with TES/TNT; however, there are a lot of games with the latter decks where you have two or three tutor effects, but no easy way to get ritual effects, and in these cases, the extra cantrips of ANT shines.
4) Taxing effects are incredibly easy to play around for ANT compared to TES. Cabal Ritual is far superior to Rite in Flames, the reliance on only a single red mana at most to go off, and a relatively resilient manabase all contribute to this.
5) I thought this deck straight up loses to Surgical Extraction. I underestimated how easy it was to peek at their hand and cantrip into a discard effect.
6) Playing with a full sideboard is amazing. I actually think G/W or mono-white decks with hatebears and a mana denial component represent a more difficult challenge than a wall of countermagic. Being able to board in several cards to actually answer these permanents is terrific.

@2pif:
Ok so you will have more situations where you have a bunch of rituals and past in flames in hand and 2-3 cantrips in your graveyard.
You can go off now with a ton of mana and lethal stormcount but you have to (!) hit a tutor/tendrils with the 2-3 cantrips and i'm not sure if it always works ,rather not i guess.

Is this what we want with multiple past in flames in the deck?
Well if this is the plan of the concept i would add 1-2 senseis devining tops to dig after pif resolved.

Anyone else who has some experience with multiple copies of past in flames ?


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

I enjoyed the TNT decklists a few years back (pre-Innistrad), since I liked the threat density that comes with Burning Wish, but I disliked the compromised manabase and color requirements of TES (which I have never been able to do well with).

I've decided to take a break from playing fair after doing so for some larger tournaments, and I took ANT to two weeklies (a list very similar to Adam Prosak's). I was dismissive of the list initially, because I could not imagine playing only 4 tutor effects, but I managed to go 8-0 against Miracles, Goblins, Elves x2, Bant, UR Delver, Jund, and RUG Delver.

A couple observations from my perspective as a storm player who has returned for a 3-year hiatus to play these newer variants:
1) The addition of Gitaxian Probe makes it allows for a lot of "easy mode" games where you would previously have to guess about what you were willing to play into. The fact that it gets us closer to threshold, digs further for no mana off Past in Flames, and more cheaply enables tricks involving Brainstorm + LED (with Tutor/business on top) is just gravy.
2) Past in Flames is absolutely ridiculous in this deck. I occasionally miss not being able to rebuy Lion's Eye Diamond with IGG, but Past in Flames is so much safer against blue decks. The flashback is surprisingly relevant if you're able to generate a ton of mana and your first attempt gets countered, but also if you need to bin Lion's Eye Diamond to enable the card. There are also a ton of games where I need to play Past in Flames in desperation mode without access to a tutor, and I'm able to eventually find the win by sequencing cantrips.
3) 12 cantrips + 4 probes + 4 Infernal Tutor still does not provide the "business density" that you get with TES/TNT; however, there are a lot of games with the latter decks where you have two or three tutor effects, but no easy way to get ritual effects, and in these cases, the extra cantrips of ANT shines.
4) Taxing effects are incredibly easy to play around for ANT compared to TES. Cabal Ritual is far superior to Rite in Flames, the reliance on only a single red mana at most to go off, and a relatively resilient manabase all contribute to this.
5) I thought this deck straight up loses to Surgical Extraction. I underestimated how easy it was to peek at their hand and cantrip into a discard effect.
6) Playing with a full sideboard is amazing. I actually think G/W or mono-white decks with hatebears and a mana denial component represent a more difficult challenge than a wall of countermagic. Being able to board in several cards to actually answer these permanents is terrific.

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Nice to hear your thoughts and experiences. I am still to settle on a list. I started out playing TNT with 3x Burning Wish. Eventually I tried out the Prosak inspired list with no wishes. I've liked both lists and I have reservations about both lists.

Currently I'm kind of hetching as I'm running 1x Burning Wish. The only wish cards in my sideboard are a tendrils and a toxic deluge. This way I still get to run a full sideboard more or less. Still undecided though.

Feel that 4 infernal tutors are too few business spells. I've tried adding a Lim-Dûl's Vault at one time and have also tested with Grim Tutor. Both have their merits. I like running some number of thoughtseizes and that combined with a Grim Tutor makes Ad Nauseam too untennable. Lim-Dûl's Vault is probably preferable. Ultimately I've decided for now to go with an extra tutor for Tendrils in the shape of the one Burning Wish.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

I enjoyed the TNT decklists a few years back (pre-Innistrad), since I liked the threat density that comes with Burning Wish, but I disliked the compromised manabase and color requirements of TES (which I have never been able to do well with).

I've decided to take a break from playing fair after doing so for some larger tournaments, and I took ANT to two weeklies (a list very similar to Adam Prosak's). I was dismissive of the list initially, because I could not imagine playing only 4 tutor effects, but I managed to go 8-0 against Miracles, Goblins, Elves x2, Bant, UR Delver, Jund, and RUG Delver.

A couple observations from my perspective as a storm player who has returned for a 3-year hiatus to play these newer variants:
1) The addition of Gitaxian Probe makes it allows for a lot of "easy mode" games where you would previously have to guess about what you were willing to play into. The fact that it gets us closer to threshold, digs further for no mana off Past in Flames, and more cheaply enables tricks involving Brainstorm + LED (with Tutor/business on top) is just gravy.
2) Past in Flames is absolutely ridiculous in this deck. I occasionally miss not being able to rebuy Lion's Eye Diamond with IGG, but Past in Flames is so much safer against blue decks. The flashback is surprisingly relevant if you're able to generate a ton of mana and your first attempt gets countered, but also if you need to bin Lion's Eye Diamond to enable the card. There are also a ton of games where I need to play Past in Flames in desperation mode without access to a tutor, and I'm able to eventually find the win by sequencing cantrips.
3) 12 cantrips + 4 probes + 4 Infernal Tutor still does not provide the "business density" that you get with TES/TNT; however, there are a lot of games with the latter decks where you have two or three tutor effects, but no easy way to get ritual effects, and in these cases, the extra cantrips of ANT shines.
4) Taxing effects are incredibly easy to play around for ANT compared to TES. Cabal Ritual is far superior to Rite in Flames, the reliance on only a single red mana at most to go off, and a relatively resilient manabase all contribute to this.
5) I thought this deck straight up loses to Surgical Extraction. I underestimated how easy it was to peek at their hand and cantrip into a discard effect.
6) Playing with a full sideboard is amazing. I actually think G/W or mono-white decks with hatebears and a mana denial component represent a more difficult challenge than a wall of countermagic. Being able to board in several cards to actually answer these permanents is terrific.

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That is all correct, but don't sweep the downsides under the rug. Permanent graveyard hate can bite your ass while this decks sibling doesn't care. Spending about 2 full turns of cantripping can backfire against other combo decks fast. Giving an opponent several turns to develop a board/mana presence can put you into Troubles as well.

I don't know if the manaadvantage and the basics remain as THE selling point, now that pure Tempo left the metagame, but Miracles and Team America (DRS + Discard) made their comeback.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

That is all correct, but don't sweep the downsides under the rug. Permanent graveyard hate can bite your ass while this decks sibling doesn't care. Spending about 2 full turns of cantripping can backfire against other combo decks fast. Giving an opponent several turns to develop a board/mana presence can put you into Troubles as well.

I don't know if the manaadvantage and the basics remain as THE selling point, now that pure Tempo left the metagame, but Miracles and Team America (DRS + Discard) made their comeback.

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Yeah, my biggest issue has been turn 2 something hateful (hymn, cannonist, meddling mage, countertop) backed by countermagic. While those cards aren't new issues, the difference lies in that decks with discard + counters are now running permanent based hate as well. And that's a little disconcerting for AnT while TES can slip underneath hate a good deal of the time and ignores the GY.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

That is all correct, but don't sweep the downsides under the rug. Permanent graveyard hate can bite your ass while this decks sibling doesn't care. Spending about 2 full turns of cantripping can backfire against other combo decks fast. Giving an opponent several turns to develop a board/mana presence can put you into Troubles as well.

I don't know if the mana advantage and the basics remain as THE selling point, now that pure Tempo left the metagame, but Miracles and Team America (DRS + Discard) made their comeback.

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I'm very aware of the downsides. I absolutely dread facing a Leyline of Sanctity backed by countermagic, and dedicated gravehate slows this deck down considerably.

I'm currently running quad Dark Confidant in the board for matchups against faster combo (Reanimator, TES) and against decks with heavy discard but low removal (mostly BUG). The plan against the former is to rip their hand apart (in addition to running Surgical Extraction) and hope Dark Confidant allows me to recover fast than the opponent. Granted, I have not played against such decks yet, so it remains to be seen whether this will work out.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

I'm very aware of the downsides. I absolutely dread facing a Leyline of Sanctity backed by countermagic, and dedicated gravehate slows this deck down considerably.

I'm currently running quad Dark Confidant in the board for matchups against faster combo (Reanimator, TES) and against decks with heavy discard but low removal (mostly BUG). The plan against the former is to rip their hand apart (in addition to running Surgical Extraction) and hope Dark Confidant allows me to recover fast than the opponent. Granted, I have not played against such decks yet, so it remains to be seen whether this will work out.

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Extraction on Force of Will could be pretty good.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

I'm very aware of the downsides. I absolutely dread facing a Leyline of Sanctity backed by countermagic, and dedicated gravehate slows this deck down considerably.

I'm currently running quad Dark Confidant in the board for matchups against faster combo (Reanimator, TES) and against decks with heavy discard but low removal (mostly BUG). The plan against the former is to rip their hand apart (in addition to running Surgical Extraction) and hope Dark Confidant allows me to recover fast than the opponent. Granted, I have not played against such decks yet, so it remains to be seen whether this will work out.

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The grinding plan is questionable against a deck that prefers to explode into other combo decks players face asap

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

The grinding plan is questionable against a deck that prefers to explode into other combo decks players face asap

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I think by grinding, he means a battle of attrition. I mean in a storm mirror or a combo mirror, it's basically a race to see who can build the pieces the quickest. If you can do that while disrupting their hand with discard, that is a bonus.

Dark Confidant allows you to win the attrition war because of raw card advantage. The disadvantage is you might die on the turn you cast Confidant.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

The grinding plan is questionable against a deck that prefers to explode into other combo decks players face asap

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I don't think it's likely to win very many matches, but Reanimator and TES are bad matchups to begin with.

Against Reanimator, short of naturally having a turn 1 kill (highly unlikely for this deck) or mulliganing for Surgical Extraction or Karakas, you need to hope that they keep a slow hand missing several of their pieces, which would allow you to disrupt. Since the cards you're boarding out for the obvious inclusions (extra discard, gravehate, Karakas, and possibly bounce) are generally your weakest cantrips (Preordain), it's unlikely to be seriously hampering your turn 1 potential. The postboard games you are likely to win generally require attrition early, followed by quickly rebuilding into a winning position. Dark Confidant helps with this strategy, while eating chunks out of their life total. I think TES focuses more on going off earlier against Reanimator (than does ANT) because they are better equipped to go off on turns 1 and 2, because Silences are much weaker than Duress effects in this matchup, and because one of their best sideboard cards (Xantid Swarm) naturally encourages them into going faster rather than relying on disruption/attrition.

Likewise, TES is a terrible matchup preboard because they are faster by about half a turn, because their higher density of tutor effects allows for more resilience to our discard, and because Silence is one of the most devastating cards available. We have no chance at beating them post-board if they're able to go off turn 1 anyway (or turn 2 without discard), so our best chance is to prepare for a disruptive game from both sides. Dark Confidant is ideal here because it lets you refill your hand with both business and disruption, does not leave us vulnerable to Silence (unlike all of our other important cards), and allows a flashback for Cabal Therapy if the opponent is close to going off.

I may not be 100% sure about the merits of including Dark Confidant in the Reanimator matchup for reasons you mentioned, but I cannot imagine there's a better plan against TES without drastically changing our 75.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

I don't think it's likely to win very many matches, but Reanimator and TES are bad matchups to begin with.

Against Reanimator, short of naturally having a turn 1 kill (highly unlikely for this deck) or mulliganing for Surgical Extraction or Karakas, you need to hope that they keep a slow hand missing several of their pieces, which would allow you to disrupt. Since the cards you're boarding out for the obvious inclusions (extra discard, gravehate, Karakas, and possibly bounce) are generally your weakest cantrips (Preordain), it's unlikely to be seriously hampering your turn 1 potential. The postboard games you are likely to win generally require attrition early, followed by quickly rebuilding into a winning position. Dark Confidant helps with this strategy, while eating chunks out of their life total. I think TES focuses more on going off earlier against Reanimator (than does ANT) because they are better equipped to go off on turns 1 and 2, because Silences are much weaker than Duress effects in this matchup, and because one of their best sideboard cards (Xantid Swarm) naturally encourages them into going faster rather than relying on disruption/attrition.

Likewise, TES is a terrible matchup preboard because they are faster by about half a turn, because their higher density of tutor effects allows for more resilience to our discard, and because Silence is one of the most devastating cards available. We have no chance at beating them post-board if they're able to go off turn 1 anyway (or turn 2 without discard), so our best chance is to prepare for a disruptive game from both sides. Dark Confidant is ideal here because it lets you refill your hand with both business and disruption, does not leave us vulnerable to Silence (unlike all of our other important cards), and allows a flashback for Cabal Therapy if the opponent is close to going off.

I may not be 100% sure about the merits of including Dark Confidant in the Reanimator matchup for reasons you mentioned, but I cannot imagine there's a better plan against TES without drastically changing our 75.

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Reanimator: This is a difficult match up, but I think reanimator has a very big problem when looking for pieces. They just don't have the necessary tutors to find them. Them finding pieces is very luck based. If you hamper them with discard, they will struggle to find what they need. Even if they reanimate something big, as long as it is not Griselbrand, ANT can still win the turn fatty comes into play. The deck is redundant, but not direct in its strategy.

TES: Pre-board? I think TES is strong against ANT post board too. Silence stays in the whole time because it is an unstoppable Fluster Storm against enemy storm decks.

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Originally Posted by jin

TES: Pre-board? I think TES is strong against ANT post board too. Silence stays in the whole time because it is an unstoppable Fluster Storm against enemy storm decks.

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Agreed, TES is not a matchup I'd like to face and I think we're disadvantaged even post-board, but I think the games we do win are generally on the back of Dark Confidant.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

Agreed, TES is not a matchup I'd like to face and I think we're disadvantaged even post-board, but I think the games we do win are generally on the back of Dark Confidant.

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Not my experience. The key to win with ANT is stripping key parts and dragging the game beyond turn 3. Spending cards and mana to wield a flurry of discard at TES works well as ANT simply is less fragile and needs less cards in hand to combo off. Boarding in some number of SB Flusterstorm is pretty nice too as it serves exactly the beforementioned goal. You don't win because, you drop a 2cc creature which takes 2 turns to start creating cardadvantage. This match is about card quality and dismissing the habit of cantripping T1 and looking for your own combo pieces rather than disruption.

I run 3 counterspells in my sb right now (2 flusterstorm 1 swan song) and they are awesome in the mirrorgame.
Don't forget: There is a game before you go off so playing control until you can go off is my strategy right now.

Bob is a tricky one,he shines in the grindy-games like combo matchups and control matchups.
Don't board them against decks that run removal even in postboardgames (yes i'm also talking about liliana here! Don't give the opponent the opportunity to profit from actually "bad" cards like postboard lightning bolts and such )


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

the thing about reanimator, in my experience of course, is that the deck seems just more powerful than ant (in this particular match up) i tried surgical and lost again because of thoughtseize. griselbrand is the real offender here

im thinking about running a singleton chain of vapor md, anyone who tested this to help me?

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Originally Posted by SaberTooth

the thing about reanimator, in my experience of course, is that the deck seems just more powerful than ant (in this particular match up) i tried surgical and lost again because of thoughtseize. griselbrand is the real offender here

im thinking about running a singleton chain of vapor md, anyone who tested this to help me?

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Yes, I have. No, it doesn't help against Griselbrand.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

Agreed, TES is not a matchup I'd like to face and I think we're disadvantaged even post-board, but I think the games we do win are generally on the back of Dark Confidant.

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I just thought of something. The way TES combats counter magic in combo decks is Xantid Swarm. Could ANT bring in Bees to fight off Chant? I would assume so.

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Originally Posted by bennotsi

Yes, I have. No, it doesn't help against Griselbrand.

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Agreed. Griselbrand will just draw in response. Griselbrand is equivalent to Ad Nauseam here. You can't beat the deck by solving it. You have to beat it before you even see the card. You need to beat the Infernal Tutor equivalent. This is usually a reanimation spell or Show and Tell. I try to target those with my discard. If they don't have those, I'd say target the cantrips!

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Originally Posted by jin

I just thought of something. The way TES combats counter magic in combo decks is Xantid Swarm. Could ANT bring in Bees to fight off Chant? I would assume so.

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I don't particularly like it against TES. Orim's Chant is at its best in the pseudomirror when used defensively. Xantid Swarm can only be used offensively to protect against Chant (and with Suspend 1), plus they don't even have to burn a Chant unless you can present a credible threat of going off. I'd rather just rely on discard as the only disruptive elements.

Would you seriously board in reactive cards for TES' reactive 3-off? No. You just fling discsard and if you see a silence + White mana maybe your duress should take that ine instead of a Ritual if you plan to combo off ;)

Flusterstorm is a lot better fighting various spells in TES and is on-color

im not talking about chain of vapor to combat reanimator, im talking about chain of vapor to answer problematic cards (teeg for example) MD, and it is a storm engine for itself