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I just saw maharis' list and it looks both fun and powerful. However, I've seen some people question some of the card choices. I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for trying to further optimize his list, if possible. For example, Navsi mentioned Fierce Empath as a strong GSZ target, which makes sense. What would come out, though? I also agree that there should be more removal, but what else can come out without hurting the combo synergy?
The 2 planeswalkers are probably the only flex slots.
Mentor, Souls and the planeswalkers are all varying flavors of "don't die before you draw your combo" and Intent fodder, with various extra upside for each.Quote:
Originally Posted by battousai555
The deck is pretty removal light, and leaning 100% on Decay and Deed gives you some problems sometimes - switching some Decays for Swords or Innocent Blood or Collective Brutality helps matchups like Sneak and Show and Reanimator. Not sure how good this deck's Miracles match up is though, which might be a reason to stick to Decay.
The ~12 combo cards (Rectors, Intents, Omni, Emrakul, Bounty, Mentor, extra Top) can be swapped out for a similar set of combo stuff if you want to. Nyx Fit has a similar number of primary combo cards, and uses a few enchantment creatures for support where this deck uses token makers. Sneak runs 4 Sneak, ~4 fatties, and 1-2 Empaths and doesn't really need anything else beyond that.
Random thought. Has any attempt ever been made to play Scapeshift for Marit Lage? It's not as strong as Valakut, but it also doesn't tie you to red, since white is a much stronger third color.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I like the idea to try it with Ob Nyxilis the Fallen one day, even if it sounds clunky ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
The problem with Scapeshift isn't being in red - red isn't that much worse than white tbh. The problem is your mana base is pretty terrible because of the number of lands that are bad to draw / losing to Wasteland. Depths has the same problems, with lots of colorless lands and having to pass turn after Scapeshift, then make a 20/20 and pass turn again, means you're two turns slower and have more trouble with getting disrupted.
Red also includes Burning Wish which is exactly what Scapeshift wants. Losing Wish makes you way less consistent.
After a year of silence, I have returned, ready to make Echelon more amazing signatures!
Legacy finally started catching on at my LGS, and I'm ready to come back to Nic Fit as a deck that is easily accessible to me, although it would be built slowly. The scene is, as far as I know, mostly Burn, with some D&T, Infect, and Reanimator. I've caught up on the primer, but still feel out of the loop a little bit. I also can't decide between Jund and Abzan. I own a single Badlands that I desperately want to play with, but I own 4 Windswept Heaths and 3 Godless Shrine (Eventually they'll be Scrublands, but it's a start!). Which version should I run, and does anybody have a list of the recommended version?
If you get 4 lands with Scapeshift you can get Depths, Stage, and 2 mana to activate Stage. So you only have to pass turn once after Scapeshift, at that point you can make Marit Lage on your turn or your opponents turn at any point. So it's 1 turn slower, but it also requires fewer lands to get started which speeds you up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
At that point you are playing an overcosted Crop Rotation. Building the Crop Rotation Version of the deck and slipping in a DD combo would be more feasible in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I would probably go for a junk list, since it has access to swords/pte and Karakas aside of the usual graveyard hate to combat Reanimator. Also DRS will be of lot of help vs both Burn as Reanimator. Having Tusk/Rhino/Courser/Scooze will also help vs Burn. Punishing Fire would be better vs DnT and Infect, but junk has a more even spread in this field. Also, if the Reanimator dude is know for it in your meta, then people would have prepared against graveyard interaction making PFire a less valid choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack
Both have their merits. a lot will argue junk is better, but i suppose it is just what you'd prefer.
Yes and no. Crop Rotation is a good card, but it requires having 1 piece of the combo already (rarely can you Rotation for both) which prices you in to 3 Rotations, 3 Depths, and 2 Stages at a minimum. Since Depths doesn't provide mana, you need to consider it a spell slot. So that's 6 spells 2 colorless lands you need to include at minimum. The Scapeshift route however lets you run 1 Depths, 1 Stage, 4 Scapeshift which is 6 spells and 1 colorless land. In addition to the Depths combo it also assembles the Two Towers. This is a big improvement. Where it's worse, is that Crop Rotation opens up some more explosive T1's though Vet/Therapy/Scapeshift does allow for a T2 Marit Lage (and T3 attack) so that's explosive in it's own way.Quote:
Originally Posted by emuhell
But then you have to wait another turn to attack, so it's 2 turns until your opponent is dead, whereas Scapeshift kills instantly... Moreover, you give one full turn for your opponent to play 1 Wasteland and ruin your combo, aside from being slower it dies to StP, can be blocked by fliers, so it's a lot less reliable... I've been playing the combo with Intuition and Life from the Loam and have cut it from my deck surprised by how poorly reliable it is, and playing Scapeshift for it seems more investment for a tool with less versatility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Hi everyone,
After trying to make stone fit works, I tested snic fit but found that I was sometime light on gas, I then tested bob fit and the cards were flowing but I died too many times with my hand full.
Now my peregrinations have bring me to nyx fit.
The sheer joy of winning with standard cards :smile: (well this is nic fit so you must be used to those comments :tongue: ) , because rhino was a serious contender but nyx weaver made for some fun comments (and even funnier after I won).
For those who have not tried it, the miracle match up is unbelievable. I've been testing this one specially, and it feels like toying with a mouse :laugh:.
There is so much value miracle can't keep up. The plan is deplete their hand, then slam starfield and enjoy !
Highlight of last week session was living plane + starfield + deed VS miracle for recurring armagedon, then nothing until I could discard to hand size and watch my poor opponent scoop.
Anyway recursive deed handle so much that the rest of the deck feels overkill.
I must say that faster matchups / matchups that attacks our mana are harder, but it's so much fun to beat miracle with such an ease.
Also congrats on the new primer !
Developing the B/G Scapeshift idea further, here's where I'm at right now. It's basically like what I've been running, but trying to up the curve a little. I'm looking towards dropping Bob entirely, but that brings back the age old 2 drop problem and I'm a little concerned I don't have enough mana here to support the curve of 3 5 drops.
Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
Creatures 16
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dark Confidant
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 The Gitrog Monster
Planeswalker 2
2 Nissa, Vital Force
Spells 20
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Scapeshift
1 Crop Rotation
On paper I really like the Tracker, Courser, and Gitrog interactions with Scapeshift but I'm wondering if it might just be win more, you don't really need cards if you're winning the game on the following turn with Depths. On the other hand, if you just go for value with Two Towers, a whole bunch of cards is exactly what you want.
I'm a little sad I haven't found room for SDT's yet.
I feel like the list wants like a wasteland or ghost quarter. That way if they have one on board you can beat it by Scapeshitting into the combo plus the waste by forcing theirs with yours and then you get to combo in response.
Are you running Nether Void and/or other anti-combo pieces? (same question to Navsi, via PM)Quote:
Originally Posted by Plm
Remember that you are not winning the game the turn after scapeshift, you need another turn to be able to attack with Marit Lage. The interaction with Tracker is sweet though; having a bunch of cards is an excellent side effect in the very probable case that DD combo goes wrong (Wasteland appears in 44.7% of the decks and Swords to Plowshares in 29.2% by mtgtop8.com statistics). Personally, I feel that unless you are playing the combo redundantly, either by playing Life from the Loam or a bunch of DD and Thespian Stages, it isn't worth it most of the time because of how large the number of decks that can interact with it is.
On running Wasteland as a way to protect it, they can just blow your DD/Thespian while you are tapped out from Scapeshift and your combo is gone unless you run LftL or can Zenith an Eternal Witness.
Not gonna lie, I just actually read Scapeshift because I've never played it and I don't play modern. I didn't realize the lands come in tapped. What a piece of shit.
Usually that's how it works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I thought they came in untapped too. I'm going to have to think about this more now. I think it's still ok but that one turn does matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus