Good counter-points. Fine, let's leave the mana-base as is. We're quibbling over minutia, anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick676
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Good counter-points. Fine, let's leave the mana-base as is. We're quibbling over minutia, anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick676
Um...yeah. I'm not sure why it isn't the 4/2 split, honestly. I mean, 3/3 is less vulnerable to Needle, I suppose, but whatever. I still don't think we need the Savannah, though. If you insist on putting it in, though, the basic Forest slot is definitely the slot to put it in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
As far as whether to do a 4/2 or a 3/3 split I don't think it matters all that much. In 99% of the games you'll play It won't matter which fetchlands you get since they can all get both tropical and tundra. At any rate it is pointless to discuss since as volt said it is just a trivial detail.
But in those other 1% of games it's statistically better, because while they both fetch both dual lands, Flooded Strand fetches more relevant basics, made especially moreso by the fact that we just cut a Forest. Flooded Strand fetches both basic Islands and basic Plains, but Windswept Heath can only fetch basic Plains (the fact that it can also fetch basic Forests is made irelevant by the fact that those are no longer in the list). So having more Flooded Strands is better, but not enough for it to make any nontrivial difference. On the other side of the fence, the 3/3 split makes you less vulnerable to Needle, but also just as negligibly so.
So in summation, yeah, it doesn't really matter at all.
EDIT: And Volt, nice use of the word 'minutia' :wink:.
I hope this will be recieved properly because I've thought about this alot and it took a long time to reason this out and type this up. Furthermore I had to type this twice because Vbb sux serious ass.
1) Forest is not necessary
Obviously, the basic lands are there to fight nonbasic land hate. Anticipating a Wasteland flood, Waste-lock, Back to Basics with no counter or removal your course of action would to be play basic island, basic plains, then another basic island(hence i run 2 island 1 plains). If you need any futher mana to double cantrip, play a muscle sliver, counterspell, EE for 3, etc, you can just fetch it out or play it without regret because it is expendable. When you are in trouble you need blue and white for counter and removal, but not green because this deck doesnt run any green answers and green mana is expendable.
.:Blue>White>>>Green :: Island>Plains>>>Forest
2) Flooded Strand is your MVP
For all the reasons I just went over Flooded Strand is your MVP. It can fetch any dual (read any color), OR a basic Plains OR a basic Island :smile: Windswept Heath fetches any color but only plains. Polluted Delta gets any dual except Savannah and only basic island.
.: Flooded Strand>Windswept Heath>Polluted Delta*
*If I didnt run the Savannah then Polluted Delta>Windswept Heath because it has one more island than plains to target in the deck.
3) 1x Savannah is a powerful card.
There have been times (few albeit) when Ive wanted to fetch for a Savannah and if i dont have one in the deck then Im shit out of luck. The 1x is powerful because its only one card and playing that 1 in the deck is like playing 7 because Heaths and Strands both fetch it. Also, the Savannah is benign. Ive never drawn it wishing that it was a Trop.
Finally, if it makes a 1% difference then its worth it. If it helps you win one game, one turn, one situation then its worth it. Think about it this way. The defective part on the recent space shuttle disaster was much less than 1% of the shuttle yet it made all the difference. It may not be an apt analogy but it is still something to consider.
BTW, im a mana fanatic. The landbase/mana base is by far the most important aspect of deck building and any improvement that can be made in that area is significant IMO.
Here are my lands again for reference:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Islands
1 Plains
Well said. I still don't think Savannah is strictly necessary, and I'm certainly not going to go right out and buy one, but it is a solid include if one chooses to stick it in. The thing that I'm curious about is when having a Savannah is better than having either a Tundra or a Tropical Island. If you're fetching for a Savannah, you're fetching for either white, or green. In either case, you can still obtain that color by fetching white in the form of Tundra, or green in the form of Tropical Island. In both of those cases, you are also fetching blue, which is the deck's primary color. I fail to see how this is ever worse than having a Savannah.
On the note of Polluted Delta > Windswept Heath (if you're not running Savannah), I agree there. Since we no longer have any need to fetch a basic Forest, perhaps the split should go something like this: 4 Flooded Strand/1 Windswept Heath/1 Polluted Delta. That way, you have 6 fetches that can fetch any of your dual lands, and exactly 5 fetches apiece for either a basic Island or a basic Plains. Here's a more comprehensive comparison in terms of what each one can fetch in the deck:
Flooded Strand
- Dual Lands: All
- Basic Lands: All
Windswept Heath
- Dual Lands: All
- Basic Lands: Plains
Polluted Delta
- Dual Lands: All
- Basic Lands: Island
With two Windswept Heaths, we're lopsided towards white (in that they can fetch every Dual but only a basic Plains), which is strictly worse IMO than being lopsided towards blue (by running two Polluted Deltas), because blue is our primary color, and we want to see it early game more often. By running one of each, it provides a nice balance between the two, which evens out the mana base nicely.
Unless you're running a Savannah :wink:.
Savannah comes into play when you make the move to the second island. There were times when i have two islands out in anticipation of hate and it never comes. Its around then that i wished i was searching for a savannah to eot plow and cast muscle sliver/ next turn. Its rare but its there. Also Savannah is nice with the sideboard as its another white source for your hate, which tends to be on the white/green side. Finally, both Heath and Strand fetch it so its always a live option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinder
EDIT: the Savannah may be debatable but 2 islands 1 plains and 0 forests is not IMO.
Well why didn't you say so :wink:? I couldn't think of a good situation, but you have a point. Any time where you want to use white during one turn, then green during the next without another fetch, Savannah is a good choice. I admit that this particular application is extremely narrow and will only come up in a very, very small number of games, but in that case the argument then becomes, why not? As long as it doesn't rape-ify our mana base, what reason do we have not to stick it in (aside from the fact that it tears my nice little fetchland balance to pieces)?Quote:
Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx
Of course, if I'm fetching for basics, I'm usually go Island, Plains, then another Island. I usually only want UU in the late game, as I only need 1 Island to play Daze, and no Islands to play Force (or if I hardcast it, I still only need UU late game when I have 5 mana anyway). If I'm going to be doing something on second turn, I want it to be playing Crystalline Sliver, not holding UU for a counterspell.
EDIT: Another thought there is that it's usually best to leave your fetches on the table if you won't be using the land you nab with them right away. That way you can wait until you're absolutely certain which dual you want to go for.
EDIT BECAUSE OF SOCKMONKEY'S EDIT:
I don't think anyone was disputing that 2 Island and 1 Plains > 1 Island, 1 Plains, and 1 Forest. I certainly wasn't. 2 Island and 1 Plains is a staple for this deck as far as I'm concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx
@ Pinder: The first post says otherwise :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinder
Also: Post some sideboards in the main post plz:frown: , we have some good ones one this thread a couple pages back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinder
As to that, that's just because I'm a lazy ass :tongue:. I'll update it with the most current list (and sideboard) as it appears in the primer myself, Volt, and (somewhat) Mav are working on.
Primer, eh? Here's my list for consideration. Ill omit card choices as they should be somewhat obvious and I too am lazy:tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinder
"Meat Hooks"
(CounterSliver)
Land
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Islands
1 Plains
Hooks
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
Quality
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
0-1 Eladamri's Call
Counter
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4-3 Stifle
Remove
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
Board
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Jötun Grunt
2 Tormod's Crypt
Duly noted. We'll be sure to stick in a section about differing variations on the list that's currently in the first post. It'll be sure to spark some good discussion.
W00t, CounterSliver: 10,000 views in N&D.:cool:
The lists you guys are posting are looking alot like mine with a couple of exceptions: I still think that running a basic forest is important to the deck. Muscle sliver is one of the most important creatures in the whole deck, He is easily the second most powerful sliver and I think a basic forest to support him is warranted. Also I still don't like seeing daze at any less than 4. If you run only 3 daze you have less chance to topdeck them late game, but that also means less chance of seeing them in the opening hand. Additionally as far as counterspell is concerned I still don't like it and I don't think it is necessary, but I will test with it against something besides gobs and thresh. I know you guys are itchin to get the primer finished, and I don't mean to be an obstacle in that pursuit but I think some of these changes are making the deck more vulnerable to non-basic hate, and also slowing it down somewhat.
Here's the thing about Dazes... The scrubbier your opponents are, the better Daze is. Bad players will walk right into them, while good players will always play around them. Against the latter, you're better off playing 3x Daze, because if your opponent is going to play around them anyway, you might as well free up a slot for something better. You still want to run three, though, to keep them honest. I think what we're aiming for here is a deck that will perform well in high-level competition. If you want to tweak your deck to perform a little better against the scrubs at your local weekend tournament, go right ahead. I do it all the time. Btw, have you noticed that most Gro decks run just 3 Dazes? There must be a reason for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick676
While this is true. The fact that "better" opponents will play around them makes daze quite effective, It becomes a rishadan port that you don't have to invest mana in (hell it doesn't even need to be in your hand). Thus forcing your opponent to slow down his play and lose tempo and often the game because of it. Also even in high level competition people will always get anxious and forget to play around daze at some point in the game. Any card that is effective enough to force your opponents to play around it out of fear that it might be in your hand should be at 4 in a deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
Well, we may just have to agree to disagree on this one. I think 3x Daze is just as effective as 4x Daze, except when playing against inexperienced players. I frequently find Daze to be a dead card when playing against competent players, aside from the effect it has on their tempo. And the effect on their tempo will be the same, whether you're running 3 or 4 Dazes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick676
If Daze doesnt need to be in your hand to be effective then it would follow that you could afford to run less of them and still achieve the same net effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick676
Wow you're totally right about that. My post actually kind of argues with itself lol. Anyway, in the list we end up posting in the open forum I'd agree with 3 dazes as it isn't too big of a deal. My main problem with the most recent list is a lack of a basic forest and also running 2 basic islands. Also with the fetchland split I still think that 3/3 is the way to go (obviously it wouldn't be if we weren't running a basic forest, but that just brings me back to my first point).Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
On the subject of 2 Islands vs. 1 Island 1 Forest, I'll be the first to say I don't give a damn. Mav made a point to me in that the only deck we really have to worry about packing Wastelands is Goblins, and we don't need UU terribly much against Goblins. Either way, I don't think it makes enough of a difference for us to be arguing about it. As far as I'm concerned, the mana base could go two different ways with much the same result either way:
//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains
or
//Lands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
Or maybe some bastard hybrid of both:
//Lands
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
I guess my main point is, we can bicker about the mana base in the Open if we really have to. I'm just itching to get it there. How about it?