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Look, Back to Basics is that good. The deck is not goblins and can not use port as effectively. The strength here comes from dodging nonbasic hate and having your own, plus relic really is that good. But i do feel like the deck needs something mainboard for dreadnought...and that we have to try to help that terrible goyf sligh matchup. So lets brainstorm...no pun intended...
Long shot idea... anyone think of Kira, Great Glass-Spinner?Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCage
Goyf sligh would be improved, and MUC would as well (stops shackles).
She only costs 3 and helps a lot. I really was just trying to find a Crystalline Merfolk or something, but maybe it doesn't need to be a Merfolk?
As for Dreadnaught, if people really are going to be scared of it we could maindeck the Waterfront Bouncer... though I don't like him.
Echoing Truth was the default choice in the open slot as I call it, which was obviously the best thing against dreadnought. Though I think it really needs to be creature tech since I think this tribal deck has borderline too many spells in it already.
It's hard having to find an maindeck answer for Nougt. However after sideboard, there should at least be 1-3 answer we could have.
Engineered Explosvies is about one of the few cheap spells that would destory the nought, however terrible against almost everything else. Bouncing it might be good but it does not solve the problem, just postponed it. I would thou SB in Echoing Truth against dreadstill.
I don't know if anyone made a comment about it but there are 1-2 list in Spain from a couple of monts ago that played 4 Noughts and 4 Shapesharer in maindeck. Don't know if that is the way to go (I wouldn't think so) but I suppose it would better the odds against gofy sligh (and probebly a few others while making it worse against ahole lot of "good" matchups). If anything, it would be a meta call.
Also, I final question: What do you do in the mirror match? There isn't that much to sideboard in (Propaganda? Jitte?) so if this deck really becomes a deck to beat, it might be good to consider having a mirror strategy. Saveing on your LoAs seems like a great idea for example.
Bouncer is just bad, and so is kira, i have played her before and two twos for three are never enough...even though i love her ability.
Kira just doesn't fit here. First, because she's not a merfolk, so she would stand alone without any bonus from the tribe (and this is the same thing i think of all the lists i saw splashing green for that son of bitch of tarmogoyf), second because she would have to wait 3-4 turns to be vialed and wouldn't do anything on her own, apart from sheltering our guys. But, of course, if you put Kira in, you would have to cut other merfolks, and I think that those " other merfolks" would be Reejereys or thrashers to keep the cc curve balanced ( don't think that any fool would side out cursecatchers for kira, cause he would hae to wait 2 years to cast a creature). So, Kira would have to protect a minor quantity of guys, reducing her efficacy. And yes, she would shelter herself too, but i prefer a huge beefy beast ( thrasher) or a good twiddler and pumper (reeerey) at this point.
If you fear the goyf Sligh matchup so much, just fill your SB with all cards against red removals, such as Divert and Blue Elemental Blast, which are quite useful against many decks. I'd even think to mind harness, but at this point the sideboard would be composed of 10 cards anti- red and we would lose many slots to compensate other unfavorable matchups. i think it's better to keep this low percentage of winning against goyf sligh and to concentrate against all the other archetypes, in order to be more preparated against everything. however, i'd go 3-4 Divert.
Against Dreadnought, it's equally hard. But that's the reason we can't not run echoing truths in side, it helps against so many threats. Better to try to arginate that fatty in the g1, maybe also losing, but in the 2/3 siding in the truths and the BEBs ( if he's splashing red, which is the version i'm seeing more going to be played because of that Cheon in the Worlds who made top4) and try to smother that fucking stifle on the dreadnought. Here, cursecatcher is godly. If Nought lands, just bluff on wasting a counter on stifle in order to cut his own counters out, and then bounce that fatty. this is what I did yesterday, i went 1-2 in that game but I was very close to win and died because of a fucking pyroclasm g3 on a eager thrasher ready to swing.
About the lists that splash dreadnought, it's not a bad idea at all ( surely, it's better than tarmogoyf), but running too much stifles/trickbind to make the combo more probable and adding that "slows " shapesharer implies that you lose something very important in other slots, which is some of the explosiveness Merfolks can provide , if needed. Not to count that you'll be more, more conservative in playing the stifles against the opponent because you'll fear that the turn after, a Dreadnought will join your hand from the topdeck and it'll be a dead card. That's pretty controproductive with the aim of the deck, and I amost think that it becomes a totally different deck.
Never tried it, maybe i'll give it a taste in the future, but for now I feel that Merfolks are pretty good already in this way, without odd techs or hybrids.
In the Mirror match-up, i usually side out a single Lord Of Atlantis, a tidal warrior, Some standstills ( if i'm not playing first) and add 3 propaganda and 2 echoing truths.
The choice of siding out 1 of Lord Of atlantis may seem to be stupid, but I think that in this matchup he's as a godly as an autoloss card. Godly because it may make you win games if you're in clear advantage, autoloss because it may make you lose games if the situation changes or you have a worse hand than the opponent's one. So, i prefer to run a 3x in order to side in propagandas and echoing truths, which allow to have a greater control on the game and to do surprise things, as bouncing its loA while attacking and block , or , similarly, swing with my islandwalked dudes, leave some blockers, and in his combat bouncing my own loA in hand to prevent my enemies' umblockability. Pretty straight examples, but they help to understand how this matchup should be fought.
Another thing i noticed in the mirror MU is that port is amazing, either tapping its attacking mutavaults, either stealing a blue mana per turn. It won me games on MWS , as well as good opponent's ports made me lose games because they stole that mana i needed to cast propaganda, which is pretty strong against a tight-mana-shell as the one in merfolks.
EDIT: Phoenix, I'm finding quite comfortable with the 11 islands and 9 utility lands configuration ( i run 20 lands). As i said, i almost always mange to get the blue mana source i need. However, i have reduced the incidence that port had before i tried mutavaults, so now, even if i have port out, i don't automatically use it to tap opponent's lands, i usually value the situation of the game and then proceed to use it to tap or to add mana. Before, i almost always automatically use it to steal mana, but effectively i understood that this is not the way to go. But still, i can swear that its efficiency is still damnly evident in certain matchups where the opponent gets screwed with the colour he needs in that moment - I'm talking about thresh and landstill, of course, but sometimes even against Zoo or the " nightmared " Goyf Sligh, i managed to prevent a goyf from landing.
EDIT2: but, all of you be sincere, is GoyfSligh so played where you guys live ? Because here, apart from MWS, i haven't never seen it yet in any tournament...
Seriously if TA and GSligh are that bad why are we not running SUBMERGE in board..seriously, free time walks that make stalker unplayable second time are pretty good i here. Here is my current board:
2x Back to Basics
2xEchoing truth
3xDivert
3xBlue elemental blast
4x SUBMERGE
1xMind Harness
Pithing needle is honestly underpowered in this deck, naming wasteland when u care about colors is great but we dont. Seriously everyone try submerge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCage
Why does submerge make Tombstalker unplayable the 2nd time?
Because we are fast enough to apply pressure quickly and idk if you have played TA but the deck only really has enough fuel to play the stalker once in the time that it takes our deck to win. Test the matchup a little more and you will understand my point.
Ah ! asked you because i thought that it could only work on green creatures, but now i read. Me lame ! :laugh:
Mmm isn't at this point relic already sufficient for that purpose? Not to count that the opponent can just avoid to fetch for tropical/bayou if he knows that you're playing that, which will be evident in g3.. but this is hard to happen, though.
It's difficult to play Tarmogoyfs if you're avoiding fetching your Forests. If they don't grab them out of fear of Submerge you've effectively dropped them from 8 to 4 creatures.
Yes relic does a similar purpose but there is nothing wrong with extra hate and hate that time walks at that. They must fetch out green or they loose 4 of there 8 threats. All im saying is to test it and start winning games because of it.
Damn, Beat me to it ^^^^
If those two are your problems, how about Threads of Disloyalty? It has quite a good number of uses and is an absolute beating on Goyfs and Dreadnoughts, and at 3 mana, it may actually be castable. Other than that, uhh, Waterfront Bouncer?Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCage
Ya, im glad everyone can agree that bouncer is a typo more then a card choice, honestly i haven't had a terrible time with nought, generally i found the deck fast enough to race them since they have to have counter back up for stifle. And right now mind harness is my threads and might get upped in my board. But that two or three card meta slot mainboard could become threads if meta is alot of nought.
What's everyone doing on the 2 open slots? Are they really worth maindecking any of these solutions or do people still use the Tidal Warrior?
EDIT: Fine, beat me to it dammit...
Submerge seems good, but I like pithing needle vs. Jitte matchups as that card is a huge bitch and usually needs to be shut down. I would like to leave that in since it gives you 6 turn 1 answers to the counter-top player (vial + needle).
As for the goyf sligh matchup I don't see how using hydroblasts is going to help that much. They side in 4 pyroblasts, which effectively just cancels our blasts (or blasts our creatures). Yeah Kira is slow and small, but if you actually get one out it either makes them 1 for 2 your creatures or burn straight to your face exlusively. That's dangerous as well, but then you get to race, and with Relic you've already shut down their goyf + grim lavamancer.
I'm a little cautious about Submerge just because after they know you have it, they don't need to grab their tropics anymore (especially if you land a Relic anyway since they don't need to play that 0/1). I guess you could pay 5 for it...
Its not just for that matchup though submerge is good in goyf sligh too, plus jitte is answered by submerge and by maindeck threads, and mind harness in side...jitte sucks without creatures, and come on, who uses red blast anymore, its all about the shusher now, and we have mind harness and threads for it. Also counter top cant hit everything since our best ten threats are 3 drops and lands so that doesn't worry me much. Needle never trumps a game, using that slot to timewalk goyf sligh and TA does. Trust me on this one and test it.
Threads main weakens a lot more matchups than I think it helps. Control MUs aren't auto-win here so taking out extra creatures against them doesn't help, and Threads is actually dead a lot.
I have been playtesting but no dreadstills or goyf slighs came up yet. Against everything I have played, threads suck, and I like Whirlpool far better.
Really, it does effectively replace bouncer and i have been loving it. Whirlpool always did me wrong, your hand is never bad enough to punt away it felt like, and when i did, he drew me 4 lands...so i guess i like threads, they did just take me a bob, and let me say i wish he was a merfolk lol.
The Whirlpool Rider has also been terrible in testing, i currently dropped his two slots and am running two threads main with much success.
The thing about Whirlpool Rider is that you don't use him until your hand is full of islands, vials, and other random things you don't want (late game daze, wastelands against decks that you don't use them, stifles if unnecessary, Relics, etc).
Early on they're just fun to pitch for FoW (same with threads I guess, but at least he's a 1/1 creature).
Threads are great for decks they work against, but I'd say 1/3 of the decks out there they are going to be dead cards against.
Kira looks really good on paper, I'm going to try her out for the sideboard. I just lost to MUC due to a resolved shackles, and really wished I had tried her out.
IDK joe, in our meta u know threads are good, its all loam and shit, but ya maybe we should even give the rider slot to kira main board. It would fix some problems, im just sure i dont like rider, even as a one of he was bad, he was ok when i played ANT though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
Not to be too persistent but threads just win another game taking turn one hypie.
Nice job cheater. I don't like threads mainly because 3cc creatures are prevalent now. If either of you caught that you'd probably be dead. Kira on the other hand could have legally blocked that hyppie.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCage
Relics beat loam... though I did get a bit lucky drawing it so much. Threads would probably be better in our meta, true. I am thinking Kira instead of chill in sideboard though. I leave vial at 3 usually anyway.
Threads are good, I'm still undecided.