Re: [DTB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SpikeyMikey
I agree with you about the cute land thing with one exception. It's not an exception I expect anyone to agree with, but I was running it in the very first 4c landstill variant a month and a half after the split with T1, and I think (with all the weight of my not having played in over a year) that it would still be viable today, even if it's not a necessity by any means. I ran a single Undiscovered Paradise. Then again, my mana base was a little rougher than the modern 4c landstill base, I was running 4 mish/2monastery and also 3 wastes and 2 conclaves.
I'm sorry, but running an Undiscovered Paradise seems beyond awful. Having to return a land to its hand is not what Landstill wants.
Quote:
One question: Obviously, since I haven't touched a deck in over a year until yesterday, I'm pretty out of the loop. I looked up relic, and it's a solid upgrade from Phyrexian Furnace/Scrabbling Claws, but why is it so powerful? I would think that generally speaking, Extirpate would be better, since it removes threats from their deck and can't be countered/gripped. Is Thresh a real threat to this deck or is there something else that I'm missing?
It keeps Goyfs small, hoses troublesome decks like Loam, Survival, and Ichorid, and cantrips at the very worst.
That said, I am not quite as enthusiastic about it as Taco is. With only one in play, it does a mediocre job at keeping Goyfs in check, and usually just amounts to a fog, before the graveyards are refilled again and Goyf is once again huge. If your meta has a lot of Loam/Survival/Ichorid, then it is definitely a good idea to run it main. However, if it is only being used to try to keep Goyfs in check, I'd keep them in the board.
Re: [DTB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Relic also kills Terravores. That's a huge plus.
Re: [DTB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KillemallCFH
I'm sorry, but running an Undiscovered Paradise seems beyond awful. Having to return a land to its hand is not what Landstill wants.
It keeps Goyfs small, hoses troublesome decks like Loam, Survival, and Ichorid, and cantrips at the very worst.
That said, I am not quite as enthusiastic about it as Taco is. With only one in play, it does a mediocre job at keeping Goyfs in check, and usually just amounts to a fog, before the graveyards are refilled again and Goyf is once again huge. If your meta has a lot of Loam/Survival/Ichorid, then it is definitely a good idea to run it main. However, if it is only being used to try to keep Goyfs in check, I'd keep them in the board.
I'm enthusiastic because Landstill doesn't have graveyard hate. True control decks need to be prepared for everything. But Landstill can't afford to dedicate slots maindeck to graveyard hate unless the slot does something else as well. In this case, the card cantrips and replaces itself.
That said, I haven't come across the best solution to that whole Relic/Monestary negative interaction other than to either ignore it or just stick with Extirpate.
Re: [DTB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
How about replacing the Monasteries with Mutavault/Faerie Conclave?
Re: [DTB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kicks_422
How about replacing the Monasteries with Mutavault/Faerie Conclave?
I've thought about it. Here's the point I keep throwing at myself.
Convince me that doing so is better than the following:
1. Still running Monestary and putting up with the fact that cracking a Relic renders you unable to attack with it for a few turns.
2. Just running Monestary and Extirpate.
This said, if you aren't running Green or aren't running White? You really should be investigating Relic of Progenitus.
Re: [DTB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Well, I would imagine that in the match-ups where you want to actually use the Relic to remove the entire graveyard, the liability of a Monastery or two which couldn't attack would be neglible compared to the damage that the Relic would do to the opponent. I would guess that the dissynergy between Monastery and Relic is outweighed by Relic's MD potential.
Re: [DTB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kicks_422
Well, I would imagine that in the match-ups where you want to actually use the Relic to remove the entire graveyard, the liability of a Monastery or two which couldn't attack would be neglible compared to the damage that the Relic would do to the opponent. I would guess that the dissynergy between Monastery and Relic is outweighed by Relic's MD potential.
Thing is? You will always want to use the Relic to remove the entire graveyard in matches where the opponent's graveyard is irrelevant. Because then you get the card replacement. The fact that you can do this and cantrip the card when it's dead is the only possible justification for its inclusion maindeck.
Re: [DTB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kicks_422
Well, I would imagine that in the match-ups where you want to actually use the Relic to remove the entire graveyard, the liability of a Monastery or two which couldn't attack would be neglible compared to the damage that the Relic would do to the opponent. I would guess that the dissynergy between Monastery and Relic is outweighed by Relic's MD potential.
I would assume this to be the opposite. Sure, removing the Graveyard from the game is important to keep you alive long enough to win, but if in doing so you neuter your win condition you have not gotten anywhere. Odds are the decks that win throught their yards will fill back up faster than Landstill.
Aggro Loam should be able to find some Cyclers into Loam quicker than you get Threshold back, Ichorid can still explode pretty easily, and Survival with Survival in play will win if you can't shut it down, which graveyard hate doesn't actually do.
In all of those matchups a simple Phyrexian Furnace is better, except in the case of Terravore, you wil still probably have 2-3 land in your yard. Slowing down goyf for a couple of turns should not be that much of an issue. Sure, not playing W/G? Relic is good. But if you are relying on your yard to win, Relic will slow you down a lot, which is not good in a deck that is playing Monastery as a faster win condition so that it doesn't go to time as often.
Re: [DTB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tacosnape
Thing is? You will always want to use the Relic to remove the entire graveyard in matches where the opponent's graveyard is irrelevant. Because then you get the card replacement. The fact that you can do this and cantrip the card when it's dead is the only possible justification for its inclusion maindeck.
Oh, right. I overlooked that, sorry. I guess Relics don't go well with Monasteries at all, then. They'd be great for UWB an UBG builds though, at least those that don't use Tombstalker/Tarmogoyf.
Re: [DTB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
If someone is concerned about their monasteries isn't tormod's crypt a decent replacement for relic? Its not as good against aggroloam but works fine against most other graveyard strategies.
Also, I decided to man up and drop the last basic island. Gotta admit, the deck runs much more smoothly, although I haven't had to face extirpate yet.
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
4 tundra
3 underground sea
3 tropical island
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastery
I'm still running two decrees but I'm thinking about cutting them for and third fact or fiction and third spell snare. Is it enough of a win condition to have six manlands and two vedalken shackles? I can't remember the last time I cycled decree for more than a few soldiers.
Re: [DTB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Okay, so I cut the two decrees and I actually much prefer it. If I wasn't running shackles I might not like it as much, but two shackles with six recurring manlands seems to be plenty of wincon for me. Here's my list now, it's much more streamlined and consistent:
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
4 tundra
3 underground sea
3 tropical island
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastery
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
3 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 force of will
3 spell snare
4 swords to plowshares
4 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives
2 vedalken shackles
1 crucible of worlds
1 life from the loam
Re: [DTB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
3duece
Okay, so I cut the two decrees and I actually much prefer it. If I wasn't running shackles I might not like it as much, but two shackles with six recurring manlands seems to be plenty of wincon for me. Here's my list now, it's much more streamlined and consistent:
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
4 tundra
3 underground sea
3 tropical island
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastery
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
3 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 force of will
3 spell snare
4 swords to plowshares
4 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives
2 vedalken shackles
1 crucible of worlds
1 life from the loam
if you not going to run decree it might be in your favor to forget the white splash and go ugb. White splash for meddling mage and swords seems kind of light on any account.
Re: [DTB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
I agree that the splash is light, I just have trouble giving up swords, I find its needed early and often. Having to use smother just seems weak. Plus, monastery is a nice quick kill, I've thought about adding in a third. Also, I might be wrong, but isn't vorosh more of a counterbalance deck with goyf? I know its a good deck, but I'm more interested in a traditional control style. I've considered a single decree in place of the third spell snare, I don't think it would be bad but I'm not sure I'll draw it often enough to make it worthwhile. I've also considered a single basic island to fetch against moon decks, going up to 25 land. Actually, as I type this that sounds like a better idea. What do you think?
Re: [DTB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
As I'm currently testing 4c Landstill I thought that I better share my ideas with more experienced players.
First of all, the manabase. No real discussion here imo, 4 Factories and 2 Monasteries as a kill condition, 7 Fetches and blue duals. No compromise with utility lands, just what you need.
That leads to the following base:
4 Factories
2 Monasteries
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
Then the rest of the deck. The auto 4-offs
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Pernicious Deed
This leaves 16 free slots. Additional removal in form of Explosives, Innocent Blood (if we don't use Goyfs as additional Wincon), Vindicates (look hot on paper, but we have Deed to blow up pesky artifacts so they are kinda meh), Diabolic Edict. Additional Cardquality (Ponder, Top) or Cardadvantage (FoF, Jace) is needed as well as more finisher than those 6 manlands.
My current list looks like this:
Manabase
4 Factories
2 Monasteries
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
Critter
4 Tarmogoyf
Counter
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
Removal and Sweeper
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict
Cardquality and -advantage
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
Sideboard
4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
This deck plays pretty solid till now. But I have several questions to the guys that play 4c Landstill more frequently than I do.
1. Which card should I cut to get to 60 cards? 61 isn't optimal.
2. Edict or Explosives? I mean I have the ability to set it on 4, which means that it actually destroy Planeswalkers which I loved about Vindicate.
3. Sensei's Divining Top. It is good enough to run? I could run more Removal or Jace (especially with Goyf as blocker) in that slot. But Top helps finding the right Duals or whatever you need. Tough.
4. Counterspell. Is it still good? I loved the builds with 3/3 CS/Spell Snare but I haven't the space for those extra 2 slots.
I'm tinkering around with Tacosnape's build with Meddling Mages instead of Goyfs, given that Mages fit way better in Landstill's concept.
Re: [DTB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tacosnape
You need actual real card advantage in this style of Landstill. You need something to supplement Standstill that actually nets you card advantage, which SDT, Ponder, and Cunning Wish, while all good, don't. Fact or Fiction serves this role etremely efficiently, as does Jace Beleren, as do a few other random things (Like an Intuition/Loam Engine).
I've been toying with Life From the Loam as straight card advantage alongside Standstill. The idea is just to cast one midgame to get back 3 lands and refill the hand. Recurring LFtL happens occasionally but it's not the aim of the deck.
This is the list I've been using, it's got heavy Landstill elements but it's more of a hybrid:
3x Life From the Loam
4x Standstill
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Tombstalker
1x Gigapede
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare
3x Engineered Explosives
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Damnation
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
2x Island
1x Swamp
The LFtL's should be getting back a couple of lands mid to late, which the deck can put to good use, and one business piece against most decks.
Re: [DTB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mossivo1986
if you not going to run decree it might be in your favor to forget the white splash and go ugb. White splash for meddling mage and swords seems kind of light on any account.
Yes, because, you know, why splash white for two of the best cards in existence that no other color has even a remote replacement for? Also, don't forget you're running white for Nantuko Monestary, as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Joon
My current list looks like this:
Manabase
4 Factories
2 Monasteries
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
Critter
4 Tarmogoyf
Counter
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
Removal and Sweeper
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict
Cardquality and -advantage
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
Sideboard
4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
This deck plays pretty solid till now. But I have several questions to the guys that play 4c Landstill more frequently than I do.
1. Which card should I cut to get to 60 cards? 61 isn't optimal.
2. Edict or Explosives? I mean I have the ability to set it on 4, which means that it actually destroy Planeswalkers which I loved about Vindicate.
3. Sensei's Divining Top. It is good enough to run? I could run more Removal or Jace (especially with Goyf as blocker) in that slot. But Top helps finding the right Duals or whatever you need. Tough.
4. Counterspell. Is it still good? I loved the builds with 3/3 CS/Spell Snare but I haven't the space for those extra 2 slots.
I'm tinkering around with Tacosnape's build with Meddling Mages instead of Goyfs, given that Mages fit way better in Landstill's concept.
1. Cut a Top. And you should cut the other two while you're at it. Top is garbage in this deck without Counterbalance anywhere in your 75. You'd be better off with Opt, if you want the slot for SDT to increase the deck's consistency.
2. A combination. Edict is insanely underrated and your best way to deal with certain threats you can't handle otherwise, but you need Engineered Explosives to back up Pernicious Deed. EE's fantastic against random annoying things like Needle, Chalice, Vial, tokens, etc.
3. No.
4. For the love of god, yes it is. Any list running less than 4 Counterspells is wrong. Period. Spell Snare is nowhere near versatile enough to compensate for Counterspell, and Snare is only better than Counterspell when you have exactly one land on the board.
Re: [DTB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tacosnape
For the love of god, yes it is. Any list running less than 4 Counterspells is wrong. Period. Spell Snare is nowhere near versatile enough to compensate for Counterspell, and Snare is only better than Counterspell when you have exactly one land on the board.
You need 3 lands on the board against Threshold. What if they drop Counterbalance on Turn 2 and you have 2 lands in play? Walking into Daze sucks.
Re: [DTB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citrus-God
You need 3 lands on the board against Threshold. What if they drop Counterbalance on Turn 2 and you have 2 lands in play? Walking into Daze sucks.
That's a very narrow reason to add to the argument of Snare being better than Counterspell. It's a good reason to run Snare, granted. It's just not a good reason to run it over Counterspell.
Why are you scared of Counterbalance, anyway? Drop a Deed for 3 or spend 3-4 mana on an Explosives with Sunburst 2. The average 4C Landstill list is running six outs to it, and additionally, it's uncommon they'll be able to keep you from digging for it with Fact or Fiction.
Re: [DTB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tacosnape
That's a very narrow reason to add to the argument of Snare being better than Counterspell. It's a good reason to run Snare, granted. It's just not a good reason to run it over Counterspell.
The point is that Snare shouldn't be run over Counterspell - no discussion concerning this point is needed.
But as Citrus-God pointed out, Snare is needed to handle these early game problem cards like Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance, Confidant or Survival of the Fittest.
So Counterspell is more of a late game counter in this case (targets: Intuition, Back to Basics, Moons, Planeswalkers and so on).
I found out that a 3/3 Split between both works fairly well in my Uwb build.
And I see no major differences in the 4c version that would make me change the numbers.
Re: [DTB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FredMaster
The point is that Snare shouldn't be run over Counterspell - no discussion concerning this point is needed.
But as Citrus-God pointed out, Snare is needed to handle these early game problem cards like Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance, Confidant or Survival of the Fittest.
So Counterspell is more of a late game counter in this case (targets: Intuition, Back to Basics, Moons, Planeswalkers and so on).
I found out that a 3/3 Split between both works fairly well in my Uwb build.
And I see no major differences in the 4c version that would make me change the numbers.
If you're running a 3/3 split, then you are by definition running Snare over Counterspell. If you're dedicating 6 slots to Counters, you should be running 4 Counterspell and 2 Spell Snare.
I'm not going to argue against Snare being good for a minute. I run 3-4 in my sideboard and have tinkered with builds running 3 main. However, cutting below 4 Counterspells probably shouldn't ever happen.
Additionally, of the cards you listed, the only one that's a serious problem if it hits before you can handle it is Survival of the Fittest, though it's worth noting that EE or Deed kills it, and if your Counterspell was too slow, it won't be too slow for the Witness that tries to recur it. Counterbalance is only a slight problem without Top and a moderate problem with, but one that can be handled via Deed and EE (Or, you know, Force of Will.) Tarmogoyf and Confidant aren't problems at all. 4C Landstill builds run between 11-13 cards that all remove creatures in play from the board, and you also run Force of Will.
Snare's main downside is that while it can almost always find something to hit? A lot of times the targets it hits are things you'd be better off not countering and saving your counter for a stronger card, but you don't get this option because you can't throw the Snare at everything.
Further additionally, when you're on the play? Snare is pathetic compared to Counterspell. Because by the time your opponent is making 2-drops, you're going to have the mana available to counter it anyway.
