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Has anyone played against welder decks recently?
They can use the explorer ramp better than we can. Sac effects and damnation aren't that great (wurmcoil), and mindslaver recursion sux.
Also I like massacre (instead of damnation) , but even if it isn't winning tournaments, Merfolk is still played, and is difficult to deal with.
I have been really liking percy. There are some games where you can drop him turn 2, but you have to remember. This is a control deck, we cant afford to have our few threats eat stps. I only drop him when I know the coast is clear of stps, or if I am baiting for a prime titan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
I have had the problem of drawing alot. Just this weekend at a 1k legacy event I scrubbed out with 0-2-2. The first loss was to a friend so I didn't mind that, but then I drew twice to matches I should have won. And then lost a forth round I lost to my own mistakes since I was just dicking around and playing for fun at that point.
When AVR comes out, I think I will splash white for Sigarda, StpS and maybe baneslayer/sun titan. It will be nice being able to just aggressively drop sigarda and give my opponent a non-interactive 4 turn clock. I would like to have the rector package at some point but I dont see myself investing in a moat in the relatively near future and thats what makes that build the nuts.
Also, I have been trying a maindeck Night of Soul's Betreyal (dropping to 1 prime hunter). I have really liked it so far. It wins the game against Esper, mav, delver RUG and random vial decks. I would suggest everyone give it a try if you haven't.
@Massacre: yeah in the matches we bring it in against, plague wind for 0 mana is pretty good.
EDIT: @starscream: My two losses at that tourney were to MUD (with no basics) and goblins :/
I went 3-1-2 at a local tourney with 40 peeps losing a nail biter to RUg, and Sneek & Show. Beating RUG, a crazy U/B, and I forget the other, and drawing with Esperblade with Jace's.
However I did split first with in the side event for a Library(we took cash).
I agree, for one--hymn to tourach makes spell snare a real card against this deck. It's otherwise completely dead. I don't enjoy the double black requirement sometimes, primarily on the first two-three turns when you really want to hit it but can't realistically. It's kind of sketchy to go say, swamp cabal therapy, forest explorer flashback cabal therapy, grab 2 swamps into hymn. That's a powerful play, but I really don't enjoy being low on forests that early.
I've rarely gotten mileage out of it and almost always wished it was just duress.
@ Star|Scream
What kind of welder deck is it. I remember from about a year ago a welder reanimator deck.
How much grave yard hate are you running? It sounds like not enough, an active ooze should be a solid pounding.
That card seems SO AWESOME! Instant getting rid of lot's of stuff, seems like it also gets rid of a lot!Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
EDIT: read your post better, you play one in the MB. Still, would you play more? It seems like solving quiet some troubles.
It is legendary and a 4drop, so I don't really care if I see it in my opening hand, and I dont care if only see one all game. So I think one is the right number. It is easy to find with 3 tops and shuffling. I maindeck because it hoses more of the meta than massacre, but to a lesser degree. It is even decent against dredge or goblin tokens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hencules
welder -> metalworker -> wurmcoil or kudoltha, kudoltha -> trample 11/11 infect or they play steel hellkite, or they play mindslaver.Quote:
Originally Posted by moseby
Very difficult to deed them out. The welder doesn't even have to be activated for them to put something scary out turn 3.
Yeah, I think against MUD we just scoop. Of course there is small chance in discard metalworker/grim monolith, kill welder and set fast clock in that case we should play some aggressive creatures but we donīt so itīs very bad MU, on the other hand only few people play MUD so itīs a small chance to get paired with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Anyway, some thoughts about the question "how to dodge f*cking draws"? Only creatures that comes to my mind are Percy, Tombstalker (both get StP) and dungrove elder. I think we need to have some faster creatures to fight combo anyway because after all the discard we have, we canīt manage a good clock to beat them. Sadly, add 4X Tarmogoyf is not the right answer for us due to the deed and so on. We just need some card that says "you have just lost" itīs only the primal titan, garruk vol.3 and maybe kodama with thrun.
@Sigarda yes, she looks really nice, Iīm looking forward to some test results (I donīt have money for Moat too..):-)
Z.
Garruk drawing 3 or more cards *should* make your opponent scoop, but there are some that just want to fight through the lock no matter what.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoda123
Question: Say if someone at my upkeep bolts veteran explorer and I add two lands, can I still play my land for the turn? Or does the triggered effect count towards the one land drop per turn rule?
You're not playing the lands, you're putting them into play, so they do NOT count.
-Matt
In the Hymn vs. Duress debate, I think Duress is way better for all the reasons RaNDoMxGeSTuReS listed.
I don't think Night of Soul's Betrayal is what we want main deck, as it makes our Explorers not able to block, blanks Hermit Druid, and really slows down Grave Titan/Primeval Titan + Treetop Village. It does not help us do what we need to do, which is "Win Faster". Dread of Night answers everything we have a problem with, fits our curve a lot better, and works in multiples. There are corner cases where NoSB is better, but overall Dread of Night is where we want to be.
Also, two crazy ideas:
If you run Primeval Titan, you could splash 1 Kessig Wolf-Run and 1 Mountain for maximum lolz.
If you hate your threats getting answered by StP, Asceticism is a card that makes your Grave Titan really stick.
So I've been trying to work Sigarda into this deck, but I could use some help for the mana.
I really don't want to hard cast her.
I don't want to run rector,
I *think* I would rather run innocent blood over STP.
I will probably main deck 1 pridemage, though.
So with all that being said I really don't need much white, but I do want the ability to hardcast her, and *possibly* sideboard Leyline of Sanctity
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
7 Fetch
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Utility
So I have 2 slots left. I could leave that as is and use primeval as my second finisher, and put in 2 treetops.
I could make grave titan my second finisher and add a scrubland (which I don't own, and would rather not purchase if there are other options)
I could do 2 plains and add another fetch.
I just don't want to be sitting on a plains when I need green, but I do want the ability to late-game hardcast Sigarda.
Any thoughts would really be helpful!
@ 1337erhosen: Dense Foliage is cheaper for the same effect. However, it doesn't do as much as Asceticism. However if you all just run Sigrada, that problem is mitigated.
@Star Scream: You don't want to hard cast Sigrada, but you'll hardcast titan? I've never really had an issue getting double white. I play more control, so I'm not steaming with 5 mana on turn three and only 1 white mana. Here's my land base:
5 fetches
3 Bayou
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Plans
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
My list is similar to one of the lists on page 38
Add 1 more plains I think 22 is the correct number for a 3 colour deck, also I would contemplate -1 bayou +1 scrubland. If you are going white you would also splash Elspeth, Knight-Errant for flying thruns. I run 22 but am currently splashing red for broodmate dragon, 1 of the reasons being is that if I get perished I still have at least 1 beater on the board.
Also why are people still running deranged Hermit, 10 mana only to see him die to every single piece of removal, and tree of redemption in the board is a house against RUg.
Yeah, in all my icarnations, I've always run 22 lands.
I really feel strongly about Sigrada. However, in building the deck, I don't have the room for Baneslayer, the rector package, Sun Titan, Liliana, etc. I really love cheating Moat into play, but I think I can be satiated by playing Enduring Ideal in Modern. I'd love to see some lists with Sigrada if people are testing her.
Let me rephrase. I'm hoping to not have to hard-cast Sigarda, because I need GG for garruk & witness, and I need BB for lily and maybe grave titan. However I want the ability to, so I will try 22 lands with 8 basics.
Been a little since I've posted here. I've continued to do well with my list, placing highly in several local tournaments, although nothing major to report.
Things I'm thinking about:
-Scavenging Ooze is coming out. Don't get me wrong, the card is absolutely amazing. However, I increasingly feel that for the direction my list is going, I don't want it. It takes multiple green mana to use efficiently, and it's square in the middle of Deed's activation range. I've been resisting cutting it for a long time now, but the advent of Sigarda is something I can't ignore, and I need to find the room somewhere. The fact that Ooze doesn't fly is something I expect to become more relevant in the future, as Moat should become better positioned in the meta with the printing of Caverns of Souls. While the fringe benefits of Ooze vs decks with Snapcaster is cool, I already stomp Dredge and Reanimator is going to be a bitch anyway...Ooze won't come down fast enough to help that, unless it's in my opener....and even then, maybe not. The incremental life gain is something I'm going to miss, considering that it has saved me several games, however I feel that the trade off for the faster, nigh unkillable clock of Sigarda is worth it.
-White versions can definitely be run without Rector...I don't really understand why people are surprised about this. I continue to be depressed by the lists that are top8ing the SCG Opens, though, because they don't reflect the true potential of the deck IMO. Deranged Hermit is awful. Get it out. That said, the slowly increasing presence of Hive Mind at least in the Open circuit is troubling. I'm pretty sure that's the one deck besides Sneak/Show that we can never beat under any circumstances barring miracles from on high.
-Metalworker revolves entirely around Monolith and Metalworker for them, and Cabal Therapy and Deed for us. If we can shut down their fast mana, we can choke them until Deed wraths away everything. If you have access to Moat, it can be an enormous cock-block for them as well, although you still need to worry about the 1x Steel Hellkite that most lists run (potentially Spine of Ish Sah as well). It's not a good matchup by any means, but it is winnable.
-Night of Souls is awesome board material, but I don't think it really fits that well maindeck. Note that Dread of Night is awful for us -- it gets Deeded away constantly. Also, I believe that the 4th Deed in the sideboard should be mandatory with the enormous presence of Maverick. It also helps against Dredge, Enchantress, Affinity, and so many other decks. I never realized how much I would board it in until I actually tried it.
I'm working more on the red version with Burning Wish as far as R&D goes, since I'm pretty happy with my Rector list aside from the perpetual tweaking. I'll post again before too long with my thoughts on that list (and the list itself, of course).
Great stuff. But no list? I'm dying to see your GBw version with Sigrada.
Lol, alright. Here you go:
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Fierce Empath
2x Eternal Witness
3x Academy Rector
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Sun Titan
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Vindicate
1x Moat
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Recurring Nightmare
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Garruk Relentless
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
2x Phyrexian Tower
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
//SB
3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Tsunami
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
1x Pernicious Deed
2x Perish
1x Virtue's Ruin
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Attrition
My sideboard is very flexible and changes a lot based on my expected metagame -- that's just my last board configuration. Attrition wasn't horrible, but it'd be better in the theoretical token build with Bitterblossoms and more walkers. Ooze was in the board because I was experimenting with cutting him, but I wanted to have him around in case it proved to be a horrible idea (it wasn't, and I never boarded him in). Since my list is heavy white, I can run Perish and not care. Virtue's is probably going to come out, leaving me with three flex spots that can pretty much be whatever. At this point I'm thinking two of them are going to become Swords to Plowshares, with the other two hopefully finding their way maindeck (although Arena is the only card I know I want to cut...it was amazing in the control meta, but as the format shifts to aggro I do not want to be paying life for cards at all). However, it may be that if I can squeeze the two Swords in main, the three flex spots will become combo hate. In making my list better vs maverick, I lost a lot of my combo matchup, and I'd like to regain some ground there. So some combination of Cranial+Memoricide, Leyline of Sanctity, Curse of Exhaustion, Chains of Mephistopheles, and a few other experimental annoyances will probably be coming back. The core of my board is:
3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Tsunami
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Pernicious Deed
Everything else is subject to change. Those cards, however, have proven themselves as mainstays of the deck. Carpet seems a little odd, especially next to Tsunami, but the thing is that you don't need it at the point at which you drop Tsu, or when you're busting a Deed. It serves as an additional ramp source that blue decks simply cannot allow to exist. Veteran is all well and good, but, especially after game one (hopefully), most blue players will try to stop you from using Veteran to ramp, either by Swordsing if you give them the chance, Forcing, graveyard hating, and whatnot. Also, I have won multiple games vs Thresh where I have like one land and a Carpet of Flowers, and it gives me more than enough mana to actively compete with them.
You've said Tsunami is just better than choke, but could you elaborate? An unanswered choke does just that... chokes them off from their land. Even if they get more land, they can only use it once. They start dazing things just for the mana. Sometimes they just scoop right there.
I admit I haven't tried Tsunami, but one merit I could see is getting them to pull out a bunch of islands with explorer and then BOOM. But it's still a one time effect.
One time is usually enough, given that you're getting amazing amounts of value out of the one spell. Also Witnessing it is possible, and I have done it in the past. The big thing about Tsunami is that when you crack an Explorer, they have a chance at getting two untapped islands. This can backfire horribly, notwithstanding that this could conceivably force you to stop playing explorers lest they kill them. Also, Sword of Feast and Famine is a thing, and I have lost multiple games to an equipped Sword untapping all of their lands under Choke. Additionally, although it's something of a corner case, you can do a sequence of plays whereby you Therapy a High Tide player naming Force, then proceed to crack an Explorer into Tsunami. High Tide cannot recover from that. It does the same thing as Choke, but IMO it does it better.
Regarding Sigarda, she is definitely good but I strongly disagree on her being a motive to splash white. If you are already splashing white for StP, Vindicate, Elspeth, Qasali, and Teeg for instance, by all means make Sigarda your new Thrun/Kodama. As of now, I don't believe that white has anything worth extending into a 3rd color yet. Also, I wouldn't play Sigarda > Kodama with so many Lingering Souls around...
@Arianrhod
You can't be serious about Baneslayer man... I know the picture is pretty and it has amazing flavor but just think it through.
The rules change a little when Moat is involved. I wouldn't touch her without also running Moat, but with Moat, she becomes a very viable wincon. I was a little skeptical about putting her in at first, but I tested with the pair of them in and they have done nothing but impress me since I put them in, including in real-world major events like GP Indy. They haven't just been succeeding on my kitchen table, I promise you. In all honesty, I actually win more games through her anymore than I do through titan beats or Kokusho looping. She's also a major contributing factor to my list's insanely good Canadian matchup -- they can't even come close to effectively dealing with her. She's been in my deck for around two months now, and she's definitely not in any danger of going anywhere. I've thought about it -- in fact, I was originally going to cut one for Sigarda. They're just so relevant that I can't bring myself to do it.
I'm not sure that I would cite Lingering Souls as a reason to avoid Sigarda, although my list is a bit different due to the presence of the Rector package, which encourages my 3x Garruk Relentless. With them, Deeds, and Pulses (also Surgicals out of the board, and Night of Souls' Betrayal), I don't usually have a problem dealing with a few spirits. Also, the meta is starting to look like Master of the Wild Hunt should be back in, and he'd love to munch on spirit tokens. All day.
Isn't Percy just better than Baneslayer with Moat? For 5 mana, why not even Bloodgift Demon?
Then I think it depends on the lists. I play more control (with moat) and so I like the lifelink. I would even be so crazy as to say Batterskull might get that spot in a build without moat because he can block. I never tested Bloodgift because I've been running phyrexian arena.
Pretty much what Hyperchord said. Baneslayer was also introduced at a time when Stoneblade and Thresh were huge in my area, which meant I was on the 3x Phyrexian Arena plan -- as such, the lifelink was exceedingly relevant. Now that the meta has shifted to aggro, Arenas have been dropped in favor of other things, but the lifelink is still amazing. I've never liked Percy, and if I were to try him, I would have to completely shift my list around to accommodate him. Bloodgift is really interesting (as are a lot of the big, flying five-drops that do things), but it has two problems that Baneslayer does not: 1) it makes you lose life, or your opponent draw a card, which is the very thing I'm trying to get away from right now; and 2) it requires double black, which I currently have 0 maindeck cards with that requirement (and NoSB is worth it for the matchups I side it in). Flying, first strike, and lifelink are all amazing keywords for legacy right now, and the fact that she can race damn near any board state is fantastic for this deck. Hell, she can race a Progenitus.
Also, although this is far and away NOT a reason to run her, I will note that it is hilarious beyond belief when her protections are randomly relevant in legacy. Tombstalker and Steel Hellkite have both had to just stare at my Baneslayers at various moments. Again, that's obviously not a reason for anything.
Thank you for the response. I will look into that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
It seems like the major draw to playing the white splash is Moat, and that's not in my price range. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on a red splash in this deck for Huntmaster of the Fells, Broodmate Dragon, Kessig Wolf Run, and most importantly Punishing Fire.
Something like this:
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Primeval Titan
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Oooze
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Punishing Fire
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Duress
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Treetop Village
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
The main draw of this list would be Punishing Fire, as it helps us grind the Control match-up a lot better by answering Jace and Lingering Souls. It's also quite good against Maverick and Delver, and gives us a way to kill Veteran Explorer.
Kessig Wolf Run allows late Veteran Explorers and Garruk tokens to become game-ending threats by trampling over Lingering Souls tokens.
Broodmate Dragon is not quite as much card advantage as Grave Titan, but it can be fetched with GSZ and blocks in the air as an answer to Delver.
I would also consider Huntmaster a strict upgrade to Kitchen Finks as it takes care of Delvers and if left unanswered accrues a lot of card advantage.
The obvious disadvantage of this list is that the mana is worse, often leaving us vulnerable to wasteland, but I think the utility of the red cards more than makes up for the mana.
Having played this deck since christmas, tested different cards, colors and builds. I think BG is just the best configuration at the moment. The top aggro decks in the format plays wasteland and some other manadenial plan(stifle and thalia+knight). Playing 3 colors is just asking for trouble. The upside is slightly better spot removal(STP), the finisher are not really better than grave titan anyway.
Playing against RUG and dropping basic+basic+basic+basic just blanks so much of their deck.
In my experience you want and bunch of cheap cards to answer/disrupt your opponent the first couple of turns so you can start to cast deeds, planeswalkers and value stuff like witness+recurring nightmare and what not.
It can be really tempting to stuff all kinds of insane(read: expensive) cards in your deck, but your explorer plan does not always go off, or your hand is double black and double white spells.
The point is: The mana restrictions in this deck is very unique, don't stretch it.
The interesting thing is this new angel: How good is it versus how much worse your mana gets since he is double white.
PS: Don't cut Ooze, he is the man.
Does Heartless Summoning have a place in this deck? I'm looking to get into this deck type.
It is at complete odds with Pernicious Deeds and any associated infinite combo would be far too cumbersome. Grab a placing GB or GBw list and try it out before shoehorning in a Heartless Summoning. Have patience with the deck, it is tough but rewarding to navigate.
It's kinda funny how her protections don't even come into play against Tombstalker and Hellkite since both are 5/5s and BSA has First Strike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
About ooze, I thought long and hard about his inclusion in the deck and how he is one of our only removable creature. At first I wanted to remove him entirely from the mainboard but as I think about it more, I actually want more copies in the deck. The thing is, despite playing a deck that nearly dodges removal entirely, having our creatures removal-proof is not a requirement for its inclusion. Similarly, having a CMC of 2 shouldn't be preventing you to play Hymn to Tourach in your deck despite it being vulnerable to Spell Snare. For those who haven't caught on yet, we don't play Hymn because it is worst than Thoughtseize/IoK/Duress, not because it is Spell Snare-able.
Here are a few facts about Ooze and removal:
1) Ooze is great against our worst matchups (Dredge, Combo, Burn/Sligh strategies)
2) Ooze doesn't get removed by our worst matchups
3) Ooze is relevant in all matchups (never dead)
4) Our opponents ought to side out targeted removal in G2, if they don't, it is their loss wether we play Ooze or not.
5) Ooze trumps nearly every creature on the field. The fact that he is straight in Deed's range is almost irrelevant because your Deed will likely destroy whatever amount of creatures is trumping your Ooze. Saying Ooze is bad with Deed is comparable to saying that Thrun's regeneration ability is good with Deed, which is true in theory but irrelevent in practice.
I have replaced my Thrun with a second Ooze mainly for these reasons, but there are plenty more.
Furthermore, here is a very simple explanation to play two colors instead of three. Our manabase has 21-22 lands, 6-7 are basics, and at least 2 are colorless nonbasics and 1 is a Arbor. Independant of an Explorer trigger, we are prone to miss land drops after the 3rd-4th land. The more you extend in a 3rd color (Jace, Elspeth, Sigarda), the less you can extend into your core colors (Liliana, Hymn, Primal Hunter, Kodama, Treetop) without increasing your chances of being color screwed. In other words, you become more dependant on Explorer triggers and dual lands. Some of my biggest complaints about playing GBW were:
-screwing myself over for a T1 StP;
-having 3 lands on T3 but couldn't Vindicate;
-having to play Garruk Worthlessless instead of his Primal brother.
P.S: 12 Post is an outrageous matchup...
I <3 Carpet of Flowers.
@Qweerios
How do you like having four Lilianas? I've only picked up the deck recently, but I've never been very happy with her, mostly because I never want to +1 her. I feel like I need all my lands, and discarding a fatty is not a good idea. Any tips on playing her?
4 Liliana sounds like a better fit in a Pox deck, thats where i run mine anyaways :tongue:
2 Cards i want to point out in my Nic Fit is: Recurring Nightmare and Diabolic Intent.
A veteran explorer turn 1, beat for 1 and play a diabolic intent for hymn on turn 2. So sweet.. On later rounds i usually intent a finks or explorer for deed or recurring nightmare. Feels almost like cheating. Nightmare is just too good in this deck.
Lately i have tried a Garruk Relentless. He works really well in this deck, dealing damage, sacking creatures, fetching new dudes, making wolves along the way.
So far i only play one of each. (nightmare, intent and garruk) But i might go for 2 intents. Fetching anything in the deck and gaing lands or life doing so is great.
There are up to 6 maindeck cards that we'd be happy to discard.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1337erhosen
4 therapy
2 darkblast
Then there are 2 witnesses that we'd be happy to recur other cards with.
Whenever I'm being IOK'd or Surgical Extractioned, they usually go for Lily, followed by deed. If those are the cards they are most scared of, then those are the cards I want to always see!!
Also a liliana set on 2 with one in hand means you can have target player sac 2 creatures in one turn.
Also, I had someone concede on MWS after discarding a Garruk. To paraphrase they said if that was the worst card in my hand they didn't want to continue.
About the third color, there are a lot of Nic Fit decks on TCdecks that are three colors. Heck, there aer a lot that still run Birthing Pod. I'm not saying that it's reason to run three colors, but it would seem that the proof is in the pudding.
I wouldn't mind a minor splash into white for Teeg, especially with the miracle cards coming out. Reveal mastery, flip delver, cast mastery, swing for 3. Cast another delver, second turn, reveal mastery, flip delver, swing for 6....
Not sure if teeg would help any since it can just be burned out, but... sheesh...