Trying to find some placing decklists (i.e. on mtgtop8 and thecouncil.es), but I can't seem to find any. Has this deck not placed yet, or are those sites not properly classifying it.
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Trying to find some placing decklists (i.e. on mtgtop8 and thecouncil.es), but I can't seem to find any. Has this deck not placed yet, or are those sites not properly classifying it.
It's Top8'ed multiple SCG Opens and has a following, but most places classify it as "12-Post", which may be where the confusion lies.Quote:
Originally Posted by maeltne
The Council calls it Post Ramp: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tip...&format=LegacyQuote:
Originally Posted by maeltne
Won my Byes for GPT DC this last weekend, but only on a technicality. :laugh: Lost to absurd draws against Jund in the finals, but he didn't want/need the byes
This is the version I ran:
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
3 [ZEN] Island (8)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [GP] Repeal
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
In the swiss I played against:
"Oops all spells" -> Win. He turn 1 kills me. oops. Game 2, he pacts for esg, and I fluster his manamorphose so he scoops. Game 3, he knows I have swan song, but goes for an innocuous dark rit, I swan song it, and he scoops, knowing I have glen elendra, revealing multiple Rits and 2 spys that would've won through the swan song otherwise.
"Tezzeret Control" -> Win. (with a deck misreg Game 1 loss thanks to writing "Glen Elendra" rather than "Glen Elendra Archmage" due to being rushed writing my list
"Sneaky Show" -> Win. Game 1 He turn 2 Show & Tell'd Emrakul vs my Ulamog and lost his 3 permanents. Game 2 he went for an intuition-> Blood moon, that was swan song'd, and backed up with flusterstorm. Then incredible counterspell wall won it.
"Belcher" -> ID, since I want belcher in the Top 8, and even if we lose the next round I get in.
"Omni-Show" -> Win-ish. I win the match heartily. Game 1 he is cantripping into lands lands lands, not knowing I have venser ontop of my library with a SDT. But it isn't needed as I turn 4 Kozilek and he has a turn 5 kill one turn too late. Still unsure if the venser would've saved it. Game 2, I have the world's largest counterwar, allowing dream halls to stick (which I often do) and just riding out advantage against them. Instead of just beating him though, I am closely watching the match of Tim Harding, since I want him in the top 8. If Tim loses, I can attempt a dreamcrush, but if Tim wins, and gets in (with his superior tiebreakers) then I can be a nice guy and id, since he would get in anyway and I want to be in a separate tier from Tim, but would likely be in the same tier as omni. So when my opponent wants to concede due to me having 7 cards in hand, lethal on the board in many avenues, and him having 1 card in hand, I ask him to let me durdle while we see Tim's result. He allows it, and I don't attack to kill him for several turns, while developing my board, being a hamster in a wheel. Tim wins, so I offer a draw and he accepts.
Top 8
Quarterfinals: "Jund" -> Win. He admits to not having Liliana in the deck, the card that keeps me down the best, and it shows itself. I have double repeal for his goyf and I show and tell on turn 5 and titan simply takes it after some venser abuse. Game 2, he gets the nut draw. Thoughtseize into triple waste, double hymn (hitting 2x show and tell out of a 7 card hand that would've ended him next turn), followed by goyf, bob, bloodbraid, thoughseize. sass. Game 3, he mulls to 5, and I Show and Win.
Semfinals: "Affinity" -> Win. he plays 8 cards on turn 1. ugg. Then swings for 13 on turn 2. uggg. Then I land a show and tell titan before he can do that again, chasm'ing, and winning it before he rips a tezz. Game 2, he plays 5 cards on turn 1, one of which is chalice on 1. BALLS. I gave him this advice a few weeks back, saying it hurts me more than armageddon. Sadly, it is true, my hand is 4 cmc 1 spells, show and tell, and 3 lands. I draw a show and tell, but fear the hell out of his hand he's holding back, as a blood moon/magus/archon will just end me. I eventually am forced to go for the show and tell due to pressure, and he has cmc 1 mana in his hand, thank goodness. I have to show and tell in an expedition map, to win the game next turn, which I do.
Finals: "Jund" -> Loss. Game 1 he has triple waste in 5 turns with double goyf, bob, double hymn. brutal. Game 2, I keep on 2x repeal, 2x land, 2x show and tell, Fatty. He lays a drs, or I draw a brainstorm, map, land, or top and I win. None of those things happen for 8 turns. horrible.
I'm curious why some of the 'go to' land searching cards don't seem to be played.
I.e. Sylvan Scrying, Sakura Tribe Elder, Solemn Simulacrum, Knight of the Reliquary.
Is Top + Brainstorm + saclands/shuffle effects already enough?
Crop Rotation and Expedition Map are just better here. I've seen mono green lists that use Sylvan though.
Post player's gotta look out! Post v. Post GPT finals would've been legit.. except I never win the mirror..Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Sweet win for Rock Lee. There was a lot of crazy stuff that afternoon, the 2 show and tell hymn rip incl, some pretty solid wins. I ripped my MD Forest one game when my only out was a green source, hilarious.
Yeah was able to get into the top 8 of the same GPT. Beat a few tough match ups which made me feel really great about my current list. However, I lost to Belcher both in the swiss and the first round of top 8. This is very frustrating because they were also my first two match losses to Belcher playing Post. My board was:
4 Force of Will
4 Fluster Storm
2 Swan Song
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Glacial Chasm
[2 Trinket Main, 1 Needle - Main]
Even though with this board I still feel favored to win against Belcher. Some note worthy steps with the board plan have definitely softened the defense against the YOLO deck:
No Mindbreak Traps: There used to be 3-4, the card is tailor made for Belcher. But since swan song and other meta movements, the traps simply don't cover enough ground to legitimately compete for several spots that force of wills occupy. However, they were missed.
No Tabernacle: The majority of the losses were to the warrens. This left me with only a chasm path - which doesn't always (and didn't always) get there. I still don't think its good enough for a slot, maybe if pyromancer and goblins pick up. It'd probably be my 17th sideboard slot, after a 3rd Glen Elendra.
Chasm Side: Wrong side of the Chasm game this week. Left it in the board & I wanted it almost every match, but if you know this deck then I am preaching to the choir.
I also like to try to attack with chasm out, a lot.
I've yet to grab a single game against that particular Jund player, and my matches played out strikingly similar. G1 relevant card slaughter and G2 my deck does nothing, probably too busy bandaging its ass after G1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Which makes me want to do something about Jund.. but then we enter that conundrum of "how do I tune against a vanilla, flavorless, semi-auto pilot, aggro, occasional free-win deck" .. because you sort of don't.. but my subtle moves over the last few months because of it have been leaning on tops, maxing out on maps, two trinket mages, and 1 other 2/2 - usually oracle [which has been great], just to compete with advantage, block, and hope they abrupt decay something. What is everyone's Jund board plan, and plan in general?
Who is going to jam post at DC? We should meet up.
The best Jund card out there is Obstinate Baloth, which janky-as-it-is, I might consider. Having an even matchup against the deck is just too risky. Obstinate baloth would also come in against anything aggro'y, and could cause a basic forest to have some merit.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimHarding
I wonder if you are playing that much against non-Griselbrand-combo that you really don't want Pithing Needle maindecked. To me it's one of the better cards in the deck as outside, say Omnitell and storm combo, it always hits something relevant to slow the game down to a more convenient pace for you. Be it Deathrite Shaman or Wasteland, Liliana or Grim Lavamancer. That's a whole bunch of Jund cards, by the way.
I've had reasonable success with Pithing Needle and the threat of Oblivion Stone against Jund in the past, but the deck seems to have evolved beyond both of these. I still managed to lose to it at the GP by being hit with 7 Hymns in 3 games, but that's variance for you. The newer builds feel a lot more comboy than control to me, not yet sure what to think about that. I'll test your latest list this evening and see how I like it. Never been much of a fan of the Show and Tells before but they seem rather essential to the newer builds.
As I mentioned several times in the past, decks you want pithing needle against run abrupt decay or don't care enough. Sneaky Show is a joke now with swan song, and omni/storm essentially has nothing to name. Pithing needle is a crutch no longer needed.
Apparently it is a somewhat meta sensitive card. I get too much value out of it to discard it. If someone Decay's my needle, it's one less decay for the Oblivion stones and candelabras, but Abrupt Decay in general is the least of my worries when playing this deck, even with needles in play. But I understand your reasoning and how it reflects your environment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
The only reason to keep Pithing Needle in would be a Recurring Wasteland Engine like Life from the Loam or such but DRS and RIP pushed them out of the metagame. I doubt random Wastelands and Planeswalker warrant playing needle
I would also keep it in main when expecting to face mostly Wasteland decks. Which I do. I agree with the part regarding random wastelands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
With regard to Tim's SB, I wonder about the Jund matchup - could you move the Chasm main and use that spot for the miser's Needle in an Jund/aggro-heavy meta, or are there better options for shutting off Wastes?
This is why Tim and I play 3+ basics. Waste recursion decks lose to Show and Tell, so you just land basics/vesuvas until you get to 3, and windmill fattie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
I agree and I do like the needle against Jund and that's why right now I have a needle in one of the more flexible MD slots. I don't play it as a crutch for any matchups, but rather as 1 of hedge removal/answer over repeal 4. It's often a 1 colorless mana vindicate, that will improve most board states. With two trinkets, the "answer" density greatly increases for little cost. I'll often tutor up to stop whatever they're developing - planeswalkers, equipment, vials, recur wastes - just as another avenue to buy time. I've really liked it in this role and it's won me far more games than lost. And yes it's an easy side out game 2-3 against omni and storm. But it's a solid end target against sneak and belcher, that I welcome. But it's definitely not like I'm planning on it or any number of them to answer waste. As rock lee said waste decks are beyond needle the best avenue is basics and manipulation to find a show and tell. Oracle is also nice here, and I am running 1 and enjoy it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
Jeremiah, this is definitely a late after thought and I meant to ask you this on site after your match. It's also quite a controversial topic in general.
At the DHG GPT in your top 8 match, why didn't you try to sneak some 1cc spells through his Chalice on 1? I'm pretty sure there's a newer rule in place that states that each player is responsible for their own triggers, so it can't really hurt to try and sneak something in there every few turns or so. Overall, it most likely wouldn't have changed the outcome of the match, but it's something to think about.
Should've. I am often blind to plays like this with the new rules, presuming my opponent is playing to their best.Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
Some fun development: I moved 4 force and 3-4 other counters (fluster mostly) into the main, and upped the SnT to 4 and played with additional cantrips. It played like a much more stable version of sneak and show. With the curve on 3/6 rather than 3/5. The huge difference is that post loves the late game, whereas sneak can't keep the heat on. I used a sneak and show board - and leyline is nice ..
No conclusions here, just some food for thought.
I had a really nasty experience against Goblins yesterday at my local monthly, and went 0-3 against them, 2-6 in games. I didn't have a Tabernacle in my 75 or any sweepers like OStone or All Is Dust, and basically had nightmare after nightmare. Stingscourger totally neutered my Show and Tells, and the two games I did won were 35-minute grindfests where I had to ramp to a double-cast Emrakul turn, then annihilator the board 6 at a time turn after turn.
I think I had some bad luck in my matchups yesterday, running into Goblins, Goblins, DNT, Goblins - basically 4 matches in a row against Wasteland, Port, Thalia, with a sideboard mostly built to beat combo and midrange. Ironically, I wished I had played a Miracles version of the deck, which would have made for some interesting games instead.
Did you have any FOW or Needle? My current configuration is also very vulnerable to Goblins; however, I do not feel that the deck is popular in legacy right now - which keeps me from devoting any slots to it. Force and needle are what I'd lean on because the go-to cards o-stone and Elephant Grass just don't cover enough of the format IMO. It's tough too because repeal just doesn't hurt Goblins like it hurts tempo - the only real presence of aggro in the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by civet five
However, if your local meta is THAT intense - the miracle build just might do it lol, but I don't think an SCG or GPT level tourney would ever be attacking enough to get me running another color for a miracle sweeper. O - stone is where its at.
I had 1 Needle maindeck as a Trinket Mage target and 4 FoW in the sideboard. I boarded in the Forces but they never hurt them that much. I definitely did not expect to run into 3 Gobbos in 4 rounds, though the fact that I was in the losers bracket sorta speaks to how they were fairing. Just disappointing that I kept running into them.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimHarding
When I was speaking of Miracles, I meant the old U/G build that ran 4 Devastation Tide and 4 Temporal Mastery. Ironically enough, there were many times yesterday that I was wishing I was drawing Devastation Tide and Mastery, as they would have bought tons more time than a triple-Vesuva'ed Glacial Chasm could.
The problem I really learned going against that many tribal decks was how well they build board presence. I sat under Chasm trying to stall, while they just kept Matron'ing for Ringeleaders and Krenko-jamming the board. Against Delver and Cascade decks, they usually don't have more than a few creatures out, and can't always represent lethal against a Chasm. Krenko just kept calling for reinforcements while I committed suicide to age counters.
My rule of thumb is that Chalice for 0 makes sure that you live long enough set another Chalice to one or two. Personally, I try to aim for two because stopping Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish slows their deck to a crawl while letting me still be able to cast Flusterstorm and our other important 1 drops (but against storm, namely Flusterstorm). But I'm not afraid of 1 in that match-up. Just like I go for 0 because Chalice stops twelve accelerators in the deck, buying me time to get more responses.Quote:
Originally Posted by LemnearTbh, a turn 2 Chalice @ 1 can be too slow, especially in game 3. Chalice @ 0 at least locks out the fast Ad Nauseams (TES only. ANT doesn't care much about Chalice @ 0).Quote:
Originally Posted by thefreakaccident
Interesting that you mentioned that because I was considering bringing Leylines in the side and then moving the fourth Show And Tell in the main.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimHarding
As for up-ing (is that correct english???) the counters in the main, I am also considering this option beacause even against fair decks I sometimes board FOWs and Flusterstorms...
In the new configuration you're testing, did you remove the Maps and Repeals (+ Needle?) in place of the counters + additional cantrpis?
There was a Turbo deck going 8-0 or 7-1 in the invitational. Seems super solid except for the lack of combo tools in sideboard. A full set of Pithing Needles seems a lot but can't complain, I play 3 copies.
4 chalice + 4 fluster is not what I would call "lack of combo tools" in SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
8 dedicated slots against combo is not "THAT" bad.
Many people play something between 12-15 so it's quite thin compared to that. Combo is your ~only bad matchup so the sideboard should reflect that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
EDIT: formatting
Props to him for a good invitational showing. I can't decide if the list was a clever meta call, or shipped straight from top8s of many months ago. He actually had 10 slots with venser. Which is still a lot. I agree and also prefer more, but also there's not going to be too much crappy combo in an invitational field, mostly sneak (as we all saw) where those needles probably did some real work. Either way this deck is normally a perfect choice for invitational metas, IMO. Hope we can get some recap from him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
so i recently seen this forum is more active than mtgsalvation. i am the 12 post player that went 7-1 in legacy. my lost was to sneak attack and they resolves blood moon games 2 and 3. if anyone would like me to tell you my thoughts on the deck i will be glad to. currently i have used it in 5 different scg events. my results have been 8th, 20 something, 62, invitationl was 7-1 and scrubbed out of the legacy in indy.(just wasnt my day)
Yeah upping works! And yeah it was interesting to play it outside the control role. I found that with forces I was having much better game 1s without giving up ground to our naturally good matchups. Plus the occasional force through felt luxurious. I tried many swaps, even cutting crop rotations (adding basics to help that), and shaving down on candelabra, trinket and oracle/map. But man the leyline is pretty decent.. Since there are free slotsQuote:
Originally Posted by Monkey_Island
How'd it go for you?
i beleive my list is near perfect with the meta game and would only change my flusterstorms for swan song so i can stop blood moon. i really debated playing the deck with how much wasteland and blood moon has seen play. but this deck never fails me i am in contention almost every event for top 8 with a 5-0-1 start in cincy and like a 6-1 start in nashville . i keep losing big games. i knew the invitational was going to be filled with tempo and sneak attack and that was why i chose to play with elephant grass . the pithing needles are necessary and i would probably never not play a full playset . also not a fan of trinket mage and the fow package. i think the list i play is the best deck atm but i am always open for ppls suggestion.
Hi Dan,Quote:
Originally Posted by NEELEY
congrats with your finish, really impressive! Maybe it's time for this deck to improve its popularity and stop just being a niche-deck since it should be crystal clear that it has real power (just kidding, lets hope not, i don't want to face dedicated sb-hate!)
About Blood Moon issue, i have added 1 basic forest to my list just to face that, reducing your pithing needles count (i usually play 3 of them, but since everybody here is talking about cutting them all, i've recently tried to low them to just 2 copies, but i'm not sold on leaving them home, they saved my butt too many times).
You should convert all your fetchlands into misty rainforest too. In this way if you fear a blood moon you could just fetch/tutor for your basic forest first, i would suggest it even if your hand is filled with blue cards too, because once you have access to green and a moon sticks, you have the opportunity to crop rotate a random mountain into your beloved basic island and keep playing your game quite normally.
I know it's considered a good matchup, but i found this quite handy against UWr control too
What were your matchups?Quote:
Originally Posted by NEELEY
1. painter
2. rug delver
3. shardless bug
4. sneak attack
5. sneak attack(loss)
6. uwr delver
7. shardless bug
8. uwr delver
i am not 100% on the order but i think it went something like this in my legacy matches. also played bryant cook in round 2 for the open and 2-0 him.(he is the builder of tes). game one led with post,... turn 2 cloudpost candelabra,... turn 3 tropical island into show and tell...for primeval titan and searched for 2 more cloudpost and cast emrakul for a million turns. it was a very good hand lol. game two challice on zero on my turn one was good enough. followed up with a turn one challice a few turns later. but he still empty the warrens on me but i naturally drew tabernacle.
Yes, Chalice is good vs TES ... had this a few pages back ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by NEELEY
I know challice is good i was just letting ppl know i beat one of the top storm players with my list and used swan song instead of flusterstorm for the open. i did not get to cast against him though.
Great work! Great to see another needle fan. I agree that your board/list covers the meta well - with the exception of omni. Maybe I am missing something, but do you write this off as a matchup you hope to dodge? My meta, and local scg meta even has been flooded with it to the point it cannot be ignored, and beating that deck consistently requires a lot of warping. I had a list similar to yours for a while- but omni was near unwinable..Quote:
Originally Posted by NEELEY
ah ok. this explains quite a bit. thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by NEELEY
i do try to dodge this matchup. it is not in our favor but i am not going to try to make my sideboard to deal with a deck that is not as popular as it once was. legacy players understand that sneak attack is more consistant and will continue to be a force in legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimHarding