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Another thing to keep in mind too is that Smallpox is only going to be effective in the versions that run a lower threat density (10-12 creatures instead of 14+). It's also only effective in versions utilizing the LD plan. In my decklist, which runs 11 guys and the full LD suite, Smallpox works great.
I did make a few small changes to my B/w/g list though...
MD
-1 Swamp
-1 Bayou
SB
-3 Pithing Needle
+3 Extirpate
You don't play it for LD. You play it for the fact that it sets your opponent back at least one turn. You also don't play it over Sinkhole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG
It shines in the Threshold matchup as getting rid of Mongoose is crucial when playing against that deck.
I've said this before, but this is only when you're on the play. When you're on the draw, Smallpox screws with you just as badly...Quote:
You play it for the fact that it sets your opponent back at least one turn
You're understanding Smallpox. Smallpox is a great compliment to the rest of your deck if you run a low threat base. It compliments your LD, discard, and creature removal. I only run it as a 2-of, but it's always a strong play. This deck is all about resource denial, and it denies all resources. It hurts you, but it always hurts your opponent's much more.Quote:
I've said this before, but this is only when you're on the play. When you're on the draw, Smallpox screws with you just as badly...
Smallpox will get discussed forever. It doesn't fit in all Deaduy... if you run more aggro, it doesn't work. If you play more control, it does. It compliments the attacks this deck utilizes. I like thinking of Deadguy as permanent control and discard... you remove their permanents with LD, creature removal, and artifact/enchantment removal, while discarding their instansts/sorceries with Duress and Hymn to Tourach (discarding lands is good too).
I think the green splash is broken. The deck is easily capable of supporting a 3rd color if it's a light splash. Green gives the deck huge advantages. Tarmogoyf is a huge beater... 1G for 4/5 or 5/6 is just huge. That. in itself, is an extremely strong addition to the deck.
With green, the deck also gets Pernicious Deed. Deed is crazy. With 11 creatures and no other nonland permanents, Deed is nasty. You always get to the mid-late game. Deed wipes away, basically, everything. If you hold onto a Tarmogoyf after, you have a 5/6. Tarmogoyf ends games. If you drop a Shade with 5+ lands in play, he also ends games.
I think green answers a large weakness of the archtype: Aggro
Tarmogoyf, as a 4/5 or 5/6 answers alot of aggro problems.
Pernicious Deeds also answers alot of aggro problems.
The deck owns combo and control. When played right, it owns Slivers, Fish, and Thresh. If it can address Goblins, Angel Stompy, Zoo, and other aggro... it can answer the metagame. Unmask definitely deals with Belcher and TES really well. E Plague is a fan favorite vs Goblins. Control always hates discard and LD. I think B/g/w Deadguy is definitely a contender in this metagame.
One thing its good to know is that Deadguy is incredibly flexible, and based on a hand, one can even play it as Sui Black, in a aggressive style, even with only 12 creatures. Smallpox basically removes the flexibility and forces you to be control.
The deck is always flexible. That's why many consider it a metagame deck. Fish, and even Thresh, are the same way too. Smallpox doesn't remove flexibility... it focuses the strategy. In a control version of Deadguy, you want a low threat base to make room for a ton disruption spells. Smallpox works very well with this strategy. Tarmogoyf and Pernicous Deeds make this strategy extremely strong.
Nice deck, Hanni.
I wanted to test Tarmogoyf since I have seen him, but without playing him in
a Thresh shell.
I think this deck has very much potential.
I just ripped some of my decks apart to build this one.
It seems to be pretty good!
Hanni's decklist looks very strong, that's sure.
but we have to do test before claiming "this rocks all deck, and all others versions of deadguy".
I agree that splashing green and white give us a new way to go, but we have to be very carefull about opponent denial. With three colors, our manabase tend to unstable, and if we loose a specific land, it can make our god hand into a crappy one.
I'll test Hanni's list for sure, cause i've already plan to to a deck very similar (but with more bord sweeper, and some fatty like spirit monger and tombstalker).
So, wait and see ins't ?
Holo.
Of course, no question.Quote:
Hanni's decklist looks very strong, that's sure.
but we have to do test before claiming "this rocks all deck, and all others versions of deadguy".
The mana base problems that may occur are of high concern.
At the beginning of the game, we only need :b::b: and then maybe :w: for vindicate.
With a godstart the deck can drop a pretty fat Tarmogoyf in round three.
So far I am testing with a 3/3 split for bayou/scrubland, because the cards that need the colored mana are equal, 6 in every color.
EDIT: Should there be a new thread for Hanni´s version??
Nah. Same gameplan, same deck. Just changing the win condition doesn't change what the deck is...
This is my last bit on Smallpox for a while.
To sum up my opinion: If you're not running a super agro list with Mom and Jitte, you should be running Smallpox.
Hanni's list isn't bad, although MWS has been absolutely screwing me. My jury is still out.
My testing so far has shown, that Smallpox is ok.Quote:
This is my last bit on Smallpox for a while.
To sum up my opinion: If you're not running a super agro list with Mom and Jitte, you should be running Smallpox.
Hanni's list isn't bad, although MWS has been absolutely screwing me. My jury is still out.
Not great, but ok.
Up to now when I played Smallpox it was always card advantage for me.
And as a 2-of you dont see it every game.
There may be better cards for this slot...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
I am not too sure that this list (the first list) belongs in this thread, seeing as it looks like it just wants to become funk brew. Look into the funkbrew thread in developemental if you do not nknow what it is.
Quote:
// Lands
1 [TSP] Forest (3)
1 [MM] Plains (3)
1 [MR] Swamp (4)
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [R] Bayou
4 [u] Scrubland
2 [R] Savannah
2 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
// Creatures
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [AP] Necravolver
2 [VI] River Boa
2 [PLC] Mire Boa
4 [AP] Spectral Lynx
// Spells
2 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [FUT] Glittering Wish
2 [AP] Vindicate
3 [RAV] Darkblast
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [7E] Duress
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
SB: 1 [TSB] Mystic Enforcer
SB: 1 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
SB: 1 [AP] Death Grasp
SB: 1 [IN] Dueling Grounds
SB: 1 [RAV] Privileged Position
SB: 1 [RAV] Grave-Shell Scarab
SB: 1 [GP] Conjurer's Ban
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
I don't understand what you mean. My decklist is nothing like Funkbrew. Funkbrew tries to utilize small regeneration creatures and manlands to get around the drawback of Deed. The deck does not focus on LD.Quote:
I am not too sure that this list (the first list) belongs in this thread, seeing as it looks like it just wants to become funk brew. Look into the funkbrew thread in developemental if you do not nknow what it is.
Just because I splashed green in Deadguy does not make it an entirely different deck. I added Tarmogoyf and Deed... those are the only 2 green spells. Does 2 spells really make it a different deck? It still utilizes the exact same strategies as before, except now it has a board sweeper and a bigger longer lasting beater (compared to Jotun Grunt).
I think green gives the deck a tremendous amount of stength at the expense of a little bit of manabase unstability, and I have yet to find myself getting screwed over badly with the 3rd color splash. Deed just fullfills such a huge role in the deck that the deck was lacking before which was basically decks that committed lots of permanents to the board very fast (like Goblins, Affinity, etc). Additionally, Goyf is just a monster. 1G for a 4/5 is just retarded... 1G for a 6/7 is rediculously broken.
Why not just SB Pernicious Deed? It ain't even necessary in the Goblins matchup...
It improves alot of matchups. It improves Goblins by killing Vial (this is an LD deck, btw), while also taking out some of their 1 drops. Another thing to remember about Deed is... the deck has Dark Ritual. Sometimes you topdeck into Rituals (when you don't open with them), and Deed makes functional use of them (so does Nantuko Shade, which is why I love Ritual so much). You can Deed for 1 on turn 2 with a Ritual, and Deed for larger later.Quote:
Why not just SB Pernicious Deed? It ain't even necessary in the Goblins matchup...
Deed is good vs Stax, Affinity, Enchantress, Fish, Slivers, Zoo, so on and so forth. This deck is a resource denial deck. Deed is a mass resource denial card. Deed is just so good in here. You only run 11 (technically 7) threats and you only ever need to commit 1 threat to the board to win (Tarmo or Shade).
Current changes:
-1 Swamp
-2 Smallpox
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Pernicous Deed
I love Smallpox, and I know I was advocating it earlier. In a B/w control build, I'd definitely run it, but I think the Deeds in this deck replace the decks direction. Smallpox kills my guys, so does Deed. Dropping Smallpox also allows me to cut 1 land for another Deed. This frees up a card in sideboard. I decided to toss another Unmask in there to handle combo. My instant and enchantment count both go up 1 as a result, which is another additional benefit.
EDIT:
I decided to post my 3c version in a new thread, since it's a big pull away from B/w Deadguy and this thread is called B/w Deadguy, not B/w/x or whatever.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=6238
On another note, here's the B/w Deadguy version I'd play if I didn't like the 3c version so much:
B/w Deadguy
Lands (23)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
7 Swamp
4 Wasteland
Creatures (11)
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Jotun Grunt
1 Tombstalker
Spells (27)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Smallpox
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
Not too sure about the SB, and the 1-of Tombstalker can always become another StP.
I'd prefer the Tombstalker as a Cursed Scroll or StP. Hell, almost anything else. Dark Confidant makes it very tricky to play Tombstalker, especially in a control deck like this one, here you could lose a game you would otherwise have won by flipping Stalker.
Also, a lack of Cursed Scrolls make your threats extremely vulnerable to topdecked removal.
B/w Deadguy Ale
Lands (22)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
5 Swamp
4 Wasteland
Creatures (11)
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Jotun Grunt
1 Tombstalker
Spells (27)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Damnation
Sideboard (15)
3 Unmask
3 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
1 Serenity
I like the B/w/g build better, but this seems like a fine alternative. The manabase is much more stable. Damnation deals with creatures better than Deed does, it just doesn't answer artifacts/enchantments. I board a lone Serenity in the board, which gives me 5 sources of artifact/enchantment removal, and it mass sweeps. The rest of the deck is pretty much the same as the B/w/g Deadguy Rock frame. More than 3 Grunt's seems like overkill and a 1-of Tombstalker seems like a really good random win condition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
flipping that random win condition with confidant can be game ending, im at 7; AH CRAP! I just flipped toom stalker!
but on a serious note, grunt and shade would be all the finishing action you would need, plus they only flip for 2 dmg; which is what you really want... grunt is also anti tarmo.card; he is a fatty on turn 2 (which is still amazing), and he takes away from both graveyard (he's better than wretch at least).
In that list:
-1 Swamp
+1 Godless Shrine
This way, the deck gains protection from Extirpate while also increasing the white source count. This deck should be able to manhandle B/w/g Deadguy Rock because it has a more stable manabase, Damnation > Deed in this matchup, and Grunt > Goyf.
Aside from the "mirror," this deck should also have a better Threshold matchup, other graveyard reliant matchups, and mana denial matchups. I still think B/w/g Deadguy Rock is stronger against the rest of the field, but this is a fine alternative to it that doesn't strain the manabase as bad.
The reasoning for the 1-of Tombstalker... it's a 1-of. You don't want to run 4 Grunt's or 4 Shades because multiples are worthless. Tombstalker is an additional finisher. Getting cards in the grave shouldn't be a problem, even with Grunt's in the deck. This is a resource denial deck. 6BB might hurt Confidant... but you're only running 1. It comes down as a 5/5 flyer... that shit ends games. It's also nice in the fact that it can weaken Goyf a few p/t's on occasion.
Damnation raises the curve a little too but it's such a nice card vs aggro. Dark Ritual means that you can occasionally cast Damnation on turn 2... this is extremely strong vs EtW, Affinity, Goblins, and even Elves. 4cc shouldn't be too hard to ramp up too, BB should be easily obtainable, and it's a black source of removal. 11 threats, with 7 being big finishers, means this deck can sit back and play board control (much like B/w/g Deadguy) and then drop a beater ftw.
This deck so deserves to be on page 1. Anyway, EE in the Damnation slot, Hanni?
I am not really sold on that lonely Tombstalker. I am not a friend of random one ofs.
Whats most important to me is that in the Bw version of the deck, Cursed Scroll is a must.
I was wondering how a Sinkhole-less list would look like. LD is just abit too clunky...
maybe:
//Mana
4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
7 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
//Beatdown
4 Dark Confidant
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Jotun Grunt
//Other
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
3 Unmask
2 Engineered Plague
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Skeletal Scrying?
//SB
1 Unmask
2 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Serenity
^untested...but most current decks can survive the LD and manascrew...Maybe EE should be in side, not main?
If you aways play 26 lands, I understand that you never be mana screwed. And unmask is not tech with dark confidant.
Unmask not tech? Why?
Because it hurts you bad, in a deck with a low tempo like this one, it's more than annoying.
And you must discard one card for Unmask...
I think even Castigate is better in this slot...
Gerrard's Verdict? It was in Pikula's decklist and sometimes you will want to target yourself and gain 6 life :)
Gerrard's Verdict and Castigate cost 2 mana. Deadguy Ale is so painfully slow, it would only worsen your combo(read=belcher) matchup.
Low tempo? I don't understand you. The deck is a tempo deck, as are all control decks. Cutting off your opponent's tempo, afterall, is also winning the tempo war. Besides, Unmask is an added answer to Nimble Mongoose.
I like some turn 1 Rit-> Hymn, Unmask goodness. or Rit->Hyppie, Unmask, or Bob, for that matter. Castigate, Verdict, or other two mana spells can't do that. We need to present sufficient disruption early, where it matters, instead of sitting on dead cards. unmask help with that.
A question for discussion:
Which accelerant do you prefer? Unmask or Chrome Mox? Unmask is only good for a turn, but Chrome mox can be hit by Pernicious Deed...
Discuss!
unmask is a discard spell that has an alternate cost of removing a black card from your hand... what do you mean?Quote:
A question for discussion:
Which accelerant do you prefer? Unmask or Chrome Mox? Unmask is only good for a turn, but Chrome mox can be hit by Pernicious Deed...
Discuss!
Edit:
If you meant dark ritual against mox, I would say dark ritual... it makes first turn duress/hymm & hippies possible; which can be back breaking against a lot of decks.
Unmask is accel in that it allows you to pitch a card to accelerate out a fast Discard Spell(you'd probably be using early accel to cast Discard anyways, and late accel to pitch to Cursed Scroll to clear hand space...
How do you want to ´pitch´ something to Cursed Scroll?Quote:
and late accel to pitch to Cursed Scroll to clear hand space...
You just show.
uh. Dark Ritual, to empty my hand but one card, then activate Scroll. At least, thats what I meant by pitch.
Ok, maybe I misunderstood you.
The play you have just described is pretty common to me.
Its some kind of play trick, as your opponent may think that you cannot use the Scroll with absolute certainty because you have two cards in hand.
I was tryung to explain how Unmask is accel, therefore i mentioned the use of accel. I was not saying tht was an amazing tech play.
Personnally i'll go dark ritual as an accel.
Everybody seeem to love unmask, but nearly nobody talk about funeral charm. I seem so strong for me, being able to answer lackey and combo (i mean, when a combo player go off, generaly in the end he has only his win con in his hand, so then you cast charm and laugh), and even being able to boost or own creature.
Here in france, someone just top8 (he finish 1) out of 43 people (or 42, nevermind).
I'll translate his report (if he do one) to add some advice.
For a time, i've been playing the BWg version of Hanni, but in the end, i've just switch back to BW. It is much more stable, and is a fairly consistant deck too. I have to admit that a controlish version seem to be stronger than an aggroish version (wich i've been trying to tweek a lot).
Another point is Extirpate. For me, it seem even more powerfull than duress (maybe a split 3/3 with no scroll or others), cause it permit to completly wrench an opponent deck, manabase, threat base.
Just my two cents.
Holo.
P.S : hummingbird , haven't you already post this list some page ago ?
I used to play chrome mox in a pikula version based on mainly 2CC cards and with chalice in SB (and 1 MD actually). My only 1CC slots were enlightened tutor and duress. This way I could pack MD tutorable plague and ghostly prison and play them on turn 2.
I have? I don't recall posting a list with MD Unmask outside of Hulk Flash meta...Quote:
Originally Posted by Holo_rip
Anyone think we need a new thread? 50 pages is pretty much a lot, isn't it? Also, anyone have an idea to restart discussion? The deck's been pretty dead, apparently.