My fault, I phrased that question poorly. I was asking what you board out, not in.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
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My fault, I phrased that question poorly. I was asking what you board out, not in.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I board out Thalia and some moms usually.
Needle is better than Wasteland/Port but it's still only good against exactly one card that you already have answers for, plus lots of Flyers to block Inkmoth anyway. It just doesn't feel worth a card here. You might lose to Inkmoth+Vines once in a while, but you also lose to only drawing cards that don't do anything relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by shocked439
Anyone who boards out Vial against Infect is absolutely insane and I don't think you should expect that. DnT generally loses the matchup because it's not fast enough and Vial is the only way to play faster. Playing a Karakas to beat their card that isn't reliably good (Thalia) seems like a bad plan, but it might be better if you saw extra targets in Mangara/Brimaz.
Here's the thing, I know we're very favored against D&T (Tom Ross called it his easiest matchup in the Legacy's Allure podcast (shoutout to Zachary Koch)). Our meta is something crazy like ~25% D&T, and I've never felt unfavored in all of the times I've played against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
All of that said, Death and Taxes is a synergy deck from a theoretical perspective. Individually, the cards just aren't that strong, it's very much the combination of cards that's doing something legacy worthy. So I guess I'm in agreement that Thalia isn't all that strong, but my big concern is that I feel there are plenty of other cards that you would side out before Thalia in this matchup. For a few, Batterskull, Crusader, Brimaz, Serra Avengers, and Mangara (if you play it) are all worse than Thalia here.
Mangara is quite good actually, it's an answer to Agent and Mangara-lock is almost as good as an online Jitte.
Brimaz/Batterskull/Crusader are all better clocks than Thalia, especially Crusader, which can't be chumped. Avenger is a flyer, good clock and blocks Inkmoth.
Big picture - although those cards can all be slow, they don't have the risk of costing you the game that Thalia does. If you have a hand full of slow cards you mull, but it's not terrible to have some in the deck as finishers.
FWIW I am in the minority of DnT players here and you should expect most people to keep Thalias. But I've won the last 4 or so competitive REL matches I've played against Infect and I think the matchup can be turned into something like 40-60 for DnT and not 25-75.
Thanks for the shout out :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesture
I agree with some of the statements people have made about Thalia being individually weak, but she is still solid with Wasteland and port. Serra avenger is def good enough to keep in. Blocking inkmoth is important enough. All of that said, I think the single best creature against us is ethersworn canonist. It limits the deck like nothing else can.
Has anyone been playing longer with maindeck Savannah? I'd love to hear some solid experiences. Mainly, whether it will screw you over in the opening hand too often or not. Switching a Tropical island for a Savannah would be very good for my SB but it's a change I don't want to make without testing a lot and I might just run out of time to do that since the GP is only two weeks away.
That said, I have to also say that having an extra land to bring in against Wastelands has been quite solid as well. Maindecking Savannah would give another SB slot but maybe make the tempo matchups slightly more difficult.
I run maindeck Savannah on and off and my current configuration (last month or so) uses it along with a maindeck Swords. The only times it's given me mana troubles are when I used to play 4x Daze and when I played maindeck Dryad Arbor. Since then it's been fine (I play 3 daze and no longer run Arbor), occasionally giving away my white splash in game 1 but overall just hiding out most of the time or once in a while coming out to cast Swords g1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
As far as siding in extra lands against tempo, I know Tom Ross recommends it against most 4x Wasteland decks, but I have no experience with this strategy myself.
I've been maindecking Savannah since the Dig ban and haven't had any issues other than revealing the white splash game 1 sometimes, like you mentioned. I think I've had to mull a hand with just Savannah maybe twice in what's got be at least 3-dozen matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesture
Alright fine folks of the source. I'm focusing hard on GP Columbus. I'm thinking about returning to the white splash and want some feedback on which way to go.
Currently this is where I'm at:
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Blighted Agent
1 Viridian Corrupter
1 Become Immense
2 Berserk
4 Brainstorm
2 Crop Rotation
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Invigorate
1 Spell Pierce
3 Vines of Vastwood
1 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Ponder
Side Board
1 Spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Hydroblast
1 Krosan Grip
2 Submerge
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wasteland
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
Cards I'm considering finding slots for:
Teferi's Response
Piracy Charm
Sylvan Library
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Krosan Grip
Absolute Law
Help please!
-If you can't pick up a fourth trop, I'd recommend cutting Arbor from the list and moving Savannah to main deck. I'll be the first to say I'm not a fan of Arbor, but if you insist on playing the card, ask yourself if it's worth playing in the main deck. What matchups is it good in? Is it worth getting stone rained every time an opponent casts terminus, or giving your opponent the opportunity to use spot removal on a land.Quote:
Originally Posted by shocked439
-What's the second wasteland in the board for? We had this talk a few days ago, but I don't think anything came of it.
-3 Swords 2 Submerge is way too many ways to deal with creatures. If you want to keep both, I'd recommend shaving one copy of each.
-Find room for another piece of artifact/enchantment removal in the board, either Claim, Grip, or Naturalize/Seal.
-Find room for Needle. 1 or 2 is your choice, but the card is flexible enough to warrant a spot in any Infect sideboard.
-Of the cards you're considering finding room for, I'd say Sylvan Library is the only one that has to go in.
I'd play seal before nature's claim. Chalice at 1 is real.
I'm admittedly a huge fan of piracy charm lately. I've cut the second become immense for a second copy of it.
New to the deck, just finished picking up the stuff this weekend. Planning to start with Spicklemire's list from SCG Indy as I've been impressed with the power of maindeck Library in my other deck (Elves).
Are there any good primers/guides to read written more recently than 2014?
Guys, how do you board against Delver decks? I'm doing pretty well lately with Infect (3th on the MKM Series Trial with 130 men, 21st at the main tournament with over 400 man and last week a 5-0 at a GPT) but I still don't know how to board properly against Delver decks. My current list is:
4 Elf
4 Hierarch
4 Agent
1 Crop Rotation
1 Zenith
1 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm (used to be Spell Pierce but this was a meta call)
1 Become Immense
4 Invigorate
2 Berserk
3 Vines of Vastwood
3 Tropical Island
9 Fetch
1 Savannah
1 Pendelhaven
4 Nexus
1 Wasteland
1 Forest
Sideboard:
2 Swords to Plowshares (but I'm thinking of cutting them for Dismember and Submerge)
2 Rest in Peace
1 Crop rotation
1 Karakas
1 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Spellskite
2 Krosan Grip
1 Viridian Corrupter
I'm happy with this list although the white splash is primarily for RiP and not Plow. There was a lot of AggroLoam and Lands in my meta so I wanted to play white for RiP. Swords also came in but isn't that good against Eldrazi which is why I'm thinking of playing Dismember again (because of the Chalice). I still need to test the matchup a bit more with Swords in the board. Anyway, how do we board against Delver? Do we keep the Dazes in on the draw, Forces in or out? Spell Pierces in? I've got no idea and I feel like the Delver decks are the worst matchup right now in this meta and they're pretty prevalent.
Thanks for the suggestions!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesture
I think you forgot Gitaxian Probes in your list because its only like 57 cards. But ignoring that, Delver is a tough matchup. They have more powerful threats and get to hold their disruption for our pump spells pretty easily. I usually board out some of the counters (Dazes on draw, Forces on Play), and Git Probes, and bring in STP, Sylvan Safekeeper, and Teferi's Response. You basically want to have cards that counter their removal and fight creatures, and win a grindy game. It's tough because they still get more card selection than you, but nothing fixes that besides some major SB overhaul and that isn't worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosaapje
Yeah I forgot the Probes but besides that I've never played with Safekeeper and I'm gonna try them. You run just a one off and do you also play Zenith then? I'm gonna test a lot with friends soon for GP Prague so I'll test more against Delver decks with Teferi's Response and Safekeeper sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Svyelunite
Did you guys see the MTGO Legacy Gauntlet decks? http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...let-2016-06-01. This is the Infect list:
4 Blighted Agent
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Berserk
3 Become Immense
4 Brainstorm
2 Crop Rotation
4 Force of Will
4 Invigorate
2 Vines of Vastwood
3 Daze
1 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Pendelhaven
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:
2 Dismember
2 Krosan Grip
1 Maze of Ith
1 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Submerge
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Flusterstorm
It's a bit of an awkward list with 4 Probes and 3 Become Immense. Also 2 Vines is not optimal. While I would make a totally different list it's not that bad and it could be a lot worse. It could be fun for people to try Infect once without buying all the pieces.
A lot of those lists were a bit wonky. The infect list with 3 become immense seems suspect though. It seems like they wanted to highlight the power of newer cards including a thing in the ice grixis list and such. I suppose this is a good entry into infect and should be consistent if not as explosive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosaapje
I'm curious about your list a few posts above you were mentioning cutting swords in favor of submerge and dismember. Is the white splash worth it then or could bojuka bog do the work of the rest in peace you have?
Anyone attending GP Prague? I wouldn't mind discussing tech and strategy for example on Friday between the trials or something. Local meta predictions would also be nice to hear.
I only play one and yes, I play GSZ also. Teferi's is best used when you're on the play so you can hopefully have a mana advantage when using it, but it isn't necessary. Other options to consider using in SB to improve Delver matchups are Blue Blast, a 4th Vines, and Absolute Law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosaapje
Safekeeper is really strong and since trying it at GP SeaTac, I haven't taken it out of the deck. Lately I've even been trying it MD in the slot I usually use for Corruptor, but I'm not certain that's correct. I'll try to remember to get y'all some data after the SCG Classic in ATL this weekend. Wish me luck everyone!
To clarify, that's 1 GSZ, 1 Sylvan Safekeeper, 0 Arbor, and 0 Corrupter main deck? What's in the last flex slot?Quote:
Originally Posted by Svyelunite
Good luck! I hope you're doing well! I'm gonna try the Safekeeper mainboard, it seems pretty good in theory so I'm exited to try it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Svyelunite
I think that the white splash is worth it even without Swords. Today I played a tournament in which I was paired against Eldrazi thrice (the top 8 was also three times Eldrazi and the finals was the Eldrazi mirror) and the opponent had a Chalice twice into play and I couldn't cast my Swords. Sure there is enough removal (in my case two Grips, one Corrupter and a Zenith for Corrupter and also countermagic) for the Chalices but they are just not reliable enough for me to board them. Rest in Peace is still pretty good, especially on the larger tournament when there are a larger number of graveyard-based decks around and you can't always rely on Surgicals or Crop Rotation into Bog. I'm not sure if I want to run one Submerge and one Dismember or just two Dismembers but I'm gonna throw the Swords out. I'm also gonna replace the Spellskite and something else for two Absolute Laws and the one off Null Rod for a second Pithing Needle. I'm just gonna test a bit more to see what different cards do because I never played Absolute Law and Sylvan Safekeeper.Quote:
Originally Posted by shocked439
Sadly I'm not going to Prague because I've got exams coming up so I've got to compensate it with playing the Legacy Gauntlet a bit more on MODO :( :)
I've been using spellskite in lieu of safekeeper. Grixis is so prevalent that i stuck him in the maindeck and really haven't been disappointed. He's very nice in the mirror as well. And winning with a berserked 'skite is one of those moments you won't forget :laugh:
Quick recap of SCG ATL
Decklist:
12 usual creatures
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 FoW
3 Daze
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
4 BS
1 Ponder
3 G Probe
4 Invigorate
3 Vines
2 Berserk
1 Become Immense
1 Crop Rotation
1 GSZ
8 Fetches, 4 Trops, Forest, Pendle, Waste, 4 Inky
SB:
3 StP
3 RiP
Savannah
V. Corruptor
FoW
K. Grip
Seal of Primordium
Sylvan Library
Blue Blast
Teferi's Response
Pithing Needle
R1 - Deathblade
Game 1 - Lost to an unanswerable TNN + Jitte
Game 2/3 - Opponent has land heavy hands and can't stop Inky + Vines
R2 - Mardu Blade stuff (1-0)
Games 1/3 - I mulled to 5 both of these games looking for a colored mana source... Got rolled
Game 2 - Super tight play and judicious use of Sylvan Safekeeper to keep Inky alive got there.
R3 - Suicide Black (1-1)
Talk about a throwback deck. This guy was actually running Carnophage and Flesh Reaver! I won both games, but I got lucky because his T2 Dark Ritual into Phyrexian Obliterator would have been lights out if my BS didn't find a FoW...
R4 - Shardless Sultai (2-1)
Game 1 - T4 double invigorate kill with FoW and Vines backup is pretty savage when all they got is DRS and A. Decay.
Game 2 - Despite him missing a A. Vision trigger and me landing and keeping a T2 Sylvan Library, I was completely unable to find a single Invigorate for my lone Inkmoth and couldn't close before he gassed up on T5 and his card advantage + Tarmogoyf got me :rolleyes:
Game 3 - I'm empty handed, he has 1 card in hand. My board is Hierarch, a Blighted Agent, an Inkmoth with a few lands, he is at 7 poison . He has all lands and DRS. His draw step is Strix, he casts it and draws (2 cards in hand). I'm dead to the DRS activation 2 times so I hafta peel a pump or cantrip. Invigorate off the top, so obviously I go for it on the Agent. He V. Cliques himself, revealing Goyf, hoping to draw into Decay or Disfigure. It's not there so I win, but damn I got lucky.
R5 - Grixis Delver (3-1)
Game 1 - He knows what I'm on and keeps a hand of 2x Bolt, Forked Bolt, DRS, Daze, 2x Fetchland... I lose.
Game 2 - I attack with Inkmoth, knowing he has a Bolt but not the rest of his hand, he Bolts it EOT, I Teferi's Response, he calls a judge to ask if I still draw cards if the Inkmoth is dead before Teferi's Response resolves. The floor Judge rules that even if he uses a second spell to kill the Inky, I will still get to draw my cards.
I know this ruling is incorrect, so I appeal (I love winning, but this is immoral as hell to me). The head judge UPHOLDS the ruling... Despite my arguments, the HJ won't budge and says I'm going to draw the 2 cards even if my opponent kills Inky in response. After an 8 minute time extension and an incorrect ruling, my opponent decides to go for the Dismember on my Inky anyway. I Daze it. He doesn't have a counter back so I win the fight. Sorry for the long side story where ultimately it didn't matter, but the point is that if I didn't have the Daze, my opponent deserves a fair and correct ruling. I win the following turn. As we shuffle for game 3 the HJ comes over to apologize and let us know that his ruling was in fact wrong...
Game 3 - We got trade a ton of resources and the board state ends up his YP, Token, and Gurmag (6 Poison) vs. my Hierarch, Inky, Pendlehaven and Trop (7 Life). I brainstorm to find Blighted Agent and Vines. I can't pump kill because I don't have enough mana. I cast my Agent leaving up Pendlehaven to block the YP and Pump and cross my fingers that he doesn't have a removal spell. He doesn't so I am able to Vines kill him with Agent the final turn at 1 life. Super fun game. My opponent was a really nice guy who shook my hand and gave me a genuine "good game" despite losing and the whole Judge snafu.
R6 - Aggro Loam (4-1)
Game 1 - This opponent also knows what I'm on and mulls to 5, presumably to find a Punishing Fire. My draw is a little too slow and the turn I am finally able to go for the kill with Inky and protection, he KOTR's for Dark Depths and makes a 20/20 blocker... I die on the crack back.
Game 2 - I have a creature heavy hand with Sylvan Safekeeper and Pithing Needle. I name Wasteland and get rewarded as he has 2 in hand. Unfortunately he draws his 1 of Golgari Charm the last turn possible to save himself and he steamrolls me afterward. My draw the turn after G.Charm? Force...
R7 - Grixis Delver (4-2) against Hunter Nance
I know Hunter is one of the point grinders for SCG events so I offer him a "prize split". He gets the hint and agrees. I concede. We play out the games for fun and he obliterates me anyway haha!
Overall, I think my matchups were pretty tough. The meta was pretty heavy on Miracles, Shardless, Eldrazi, DnT and Elves. Unfortunately the 3 decks out of those 5 that Infect is pretty favored against I didn't get to play so it was always an uphill battle. Solid performance and confidence builder for Columbus.
@Svyelunite thanks for the recap.
Still a fan of Safekeeper? It seems so vulnerable to -1/-1 mini-sweepers, like your game R6 shows. But I guess you can always sb it out if you expect -1/-1 effects?
Thoughts on Pierce vs Flusterstorm? I am firmly in the Flusterstorm camp.
Do you think 3 probes are worth it? I find the weakness of the card as a cantrip to be a liability at times. Infect really needs card selection more than other tempo decks. Probe is great if you have an otherwise unprotected kill, but sometimes Probe is also win more if you have everything you need anyway. And when you don't have much of anything, probe is very bad. As guess that is true for any deck with Probes.
I am curious why you would opt for the white splash and not have Absolute Law in your sb. Seems like it might have helped in some of your games?
Good luck with the GP, man.
@everyone
GP Prague is also coming up, and I am considering a few whacky ideas as always. As I have limited time for testing, so I am looking for quick opinions on these ideas:
1) Venarian Glimmer I discovered this card by chance, when looking for something else (love it when that happens). It is basically an overcosted blue Inquisition of Kozilek at instant speed. I have done some limited testing, and it does seem useful for eot snapping a removal spell, or a Jitte, among other things, but nothing conclusive.
2) Holistic Wisdom Obviously a slow card, but it seems like a very powerful effect for Infect, being able to swap any instant for Invigorate, any pump spell for a brainstorm or counter, Noble for an infect creature, or any land for an Inkmoth. Unfortunately this card is currently bugged on MTGO, and if you try to activate it the game will crash and restart.
Hi Everybody
I'm an Italian player that is testing the deck from almost 2 years, I hit the top 32 at GP Lille the previous summer with our lovely deck and many other top8s at other less important events here in Italy. I'm going to the GP Prague this Weekend, this is my list:
4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Windswepth Heath
4 Tropical Island
1 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Pendelhaven
1 Become Immense
2 Berserk
4 Brainstorm
1 Crop Rotation
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Invigorate
2 Spell Pierce
3 Vines of Vastwood
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ponder
1 Karakas
1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Spellskite
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 1 Savannah
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Absolute Law
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Divert
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
I have one question, In contrast to what Tom Ross says, I think that Miracle (here in europe there are the most strong Miracle players in the world) is not one of our best MU, so I was thinking about put a City of Solitude in my sideboard, instead of Divert, that is good against Grixis, RUG, or any type of BUG. In order to Avoid any miracle effect in my turn, spinning top or plowshares in EOT. I think that most of time we use our counter to protect our aplha strike, not for counter the opponent meneace, and they will drop a CB sooner than our City I suppose. What do you think about this choise, is City good in any other MU.
Has anybody tried City of Solitude already? Thank you and sorry for my bad english :P
City of solitude is symmetrical so it also forces you to ignore their plays, which I'm not a fan of as any of your non-nexus dudes will die to a main phase StP now. The cost is another thing as because of three mana you likely have to play it a turn beforehand giving them a window to kill creatures on their turn unopposed. Best case would be City + nexus but that's just thin IMO to have a desired impact in making the matchup better. Your SB looks slightly light on cards to bring in against miracles, especially whit Prague in mind and you stating having difficulties with the matchup. For reference I play 2 x needle and 2 x null rod and they are most of the time pretty much doing what City would - stopping top tricks on your turn. Besides them I can bring in 2 x Grip so I ger to board out 3 x daze and 3 x hierarch (usually).
I agree that miracles is not as easy as Ross makes it sound but the matchup is very enjoyable and infect has the edge in the end if you just don't play foolishly into terminus. I started winning once I learned that hierarch just sets up a better Terminus for them and should be sided out in some numbers. Flusterstorm is really good vs. them.
A question to all Null Rod users: The better eldrazi decks play maindeck Jittes and likely side in some Ratchet bombs as well. Would you bring in Null rod in here? I usually side it in against Jitte (mystic) decks but it's hard to evaluate this one without enough test games.
I'm not a Null Rod user, but I'll answer with another question. Do you think you need Null Rod vs. them when you're already probably bringing in 2-3 Artifact hate cards? You can't win a long game vs. them anyway, so I'd be worried I'm overboarding and diluting our chance for a fast kill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
I love Safekeeper, he won't be ideal in every match, but he's proven to pull his weight often enough that I want to keep him. I maybe should SB him out in matchups like Aggro Loam, but that's on me not Safekeeper's fault :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartesian
I like Pierce and Flusterstorm. I am enjoying the 1/1 split currently. It's classic Tom Ross thinking where 1-ofs keep people guessing, but they have enough overlap that I don't mind it.
I don't think probe is a great card for its redraw, but more for its utility planning out the early turns of the game. You have a much better idea of what to fight over when you know all or part of their hand. I have done just 2 in the past and it's also fine if you want another Ponder or counterspell.
I didn't run Absolute Law because I honestly wasn't expecting to play so many red decks. The room was full of Miracles, Eldrazi and Elves but I got some wonky pairings :rolleyes: Obviously if I could run it back again I'd have the Abs.Law in the board, probably in place of a RiP.
Anyone have strong opinions on stifle in a flex spot this weekend? The more I think about it the more convinced I am that it is the place I want to be.
I cannot speak for Infect bringing in Null Rod for Eldrazi but I can speak about it from the other side of the match. I've been playing a lot of Eldrazi lately (multiple versions) and Null Rod does very little. In fact, at a GP in Toronto someone sided in a null rod (and ironically, I sided out my Jitte's because he was playing a form of combo) and it didn't do anything to disrupt me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
The only card you're ever really going to hit is Jitte. Ratchet Bomb isn't a mainstay in every sideboard and I don't think it's a huge issue regardless for Infect, since it's still a full turn before they can snap it with any real use.
I haven't played Stifle in ages but I get the appeal of it. It's sometimes a huge blow out but I hated drawing it late in the game when it did very little (majority of the time).Quote:
Originally Posted by shocked439
Right now I'm actually testing baby Jace in that flex slot. I don't know if I really like it to be honest but I saw a few decklists run him and thought I should at least give it a try. Also been liking the GSZ package with Corrupter, unsure if I like the Dryad Arbor too but so far Im running that as well. Moved 1 Flusterstorm from the MD to the SB (2x SB now) to make room.
Nice list, Im still not sure about mine (+1x arbor, +1x sylvan library, +1 pierce, -1x safekeepr, -1x probe, -1x fluster) coz maybe give it a try.Quote:
Originally Posted by Svyelunite
Are you playing 6 white SB cards with only one savannah and without karakas? How this works for you? It seems strange to me, because swords are good against delver decks full of wastelands.
Could you please share your SB techniques for most popular matchups? what you sb in and out (on the play and on the draw) many many thanks!
Sideboarding is the most difficult thing for me, I find myself changing too many cards and dilute my plan.
BTW my last SB is:
2x fluster
2x grip
1x fow
1x corrupter
1x needle
1x savannah
1x karakas
2x swords
2x RIP
1x surgical
1x flex slot (safekeeper or seal of primordium)
I love the GSZ and Jace packages. I've been one of the more vocal advocates for JVP for MVP. As I look at the decks to beat and try to configure my deck though it seems more and more like stifle is something people aren't playing around and I can't wait to stifle a miracle trigger or a lilly ticked down, or a cascade trigger, or an eye of ugin search so many options. If I wasn't playing infect I'd be on a deck with 4 stifle and 3 price of progress.Quote:
Originally Posted by RhoxWarMonk
karakas is unreliable white source since it's not fetchable, it's better as an answer to legendary creatures, so his plan is pretty much the same as yours. 1 savannah plus 4 noble hierarchs is plenty of white sources for the spells you have.Quote:
Originally Posted by datanaga
Do you have any matchups in particular you are curious about?
I admit, Jace isn't bad but I'm not sure if he's worth the slot or not. The looting is nice and it's obviously very easy to flip him. The problem is I don't find his flashback all that useful. Costs 3 to flashback invigorate and I don't see myself flashing back Berserk pre-combat. Flashing back a probe is maybe ok (I guess?) if you want to see if the coast is clear but there doesn't feel like we have many targets for him. I found I was mostly giving flashback to things like Brainstorm, which is alright but nothing amazing either. The +1 isn't bad tho, I've kept a few delvers in check with it which was decent. I'd love to hear your experiences with him though, you definitely have more experience than I do with him and he's a card that I'd love to justify and make room for.Quote:
Originally Posted by shocked439
Jace is not "flashback". You can pay alternate costs with the cards he targets.Quote:
Originally Posted by RhoxWarMonk
I think it is not same, I play only 4 white cards, he plays 6, I can still fetch for karakas with crop rotation if needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by shocked439
For example how does he SB against shardless bug, bug delver or punishing jund? How many swords and rips he puts in?
Reggarding to sideboarding techniques, I will share my habits, please all comment what do you think is ok and what is wrong.
MY LIST:
12 typical creatures
1x dryad arbor ----->still not sure if is correct play this, maybe safekeeper is better in this slot
1x zenith
3x daze
3x fow
2x pierce ----->Im far more afraid of chalice and counterballance, so I prefer pierce over fluster
2x probe
4x brainstorm
4x invigorate
3x vines
2x berserk
1x become immense
1x ponder
1x crop rotation
1x sylvan library ----->still not sure if is correct to play maindeck, if I will cut arbor (more acceleration=>library is better), I will move library to sb and play second ponder or third probe in this slot
8x fetch
4x tropical
1x pendel
1x wasteland
1x forest
4x inkmoth
SB:
2x krosan grip
2x swords
2x RIP
1x savannah
1x karakas
1x fow
2x fluster
1x needle (or sylvan library, if i cut it from MD)
1x surgical
1x safekeeper (or seal of primordium if i will cut arbor and play safekeeper main)
1x corrupter
MIRACLES
on play: -3x fow, -3x noble, +2 fluster, +2 krosan, +1 safekeeper, +1 needle
on draw: -3x daze, -3x noble, +2 fluster, +2 krosan, +1 safekeeper, +1 needle
LANDS
on play: -3x daze, -3x fow, -2x probe, -1x arbor, -1x become immense, +2 fluster, + 2x RIP, +1 corrupter, +1 safekeeper, +1 needle, + 1x savannah, +1 karakas, +1 surgical
on draw: -3x daze, -3x fow, -2x probe, -1x arbor, -1x become immense, +2 fluster, + 2x RIP, +1 safekeeper, +1 needle, + 1x savannah, +1 karakas, +1 surgical, +1 swords
ELDRAZI AGGRO(if displacer=>needle in)
on play: -3x fow, -2x probe, -1x sylvan library, +2 krosan, +1 corrupter, +1x savannah, +2x swords
on draw: -3x daze, -2x probe, -1x sylvan library, +2 krosan, +1 corrupter, +1x savannah, +2x swords
ANT
on play: -3x vines, -1x arbor, -1x forest, -1 become immense, -1x zenith, +2x fluster, +1 fow, +2 RIP, +1 surgical, +1x savannah
on draw: -3x vines, -1x arbor, -1x forest, -1 become immense, -1x zenith, +2x fluster, +1 fow, +2 RIP, +1 surgical, +1x savannah
GRIXIS DELVER
on play: -3x fow, -1x arbor, -2x probe, -1x library, +2x fluster, +1x safekeeper, +2x swords, +1 savannah, 1x needle
on draw: -3x daze, -1x arbor, -2x probe, -1x library, +2x fluster, +1x safekeeper, +2x swords, +1 savannah, 1x needle
To be continue....
I agree that fetching karakas with crop rotation is a play you can make, and is a great play against emrakul and other legends. It is one of the better ways to beat death and taxes (end of turn grab karakas, bounce thalia, move to your turn win). My point was you have 8 fetches that are capable of grabbing savannah, and most decks aren't wasting your non inkmoth lands. Even if they are you aren't fetching the savannah until you have the white spell in hand. So one savannah is plenty.Quote:
Originally Posted by datanaga
I'll let him respond to this.Quote:
For example how does he SB against shardless bug, bug delver or punishing jund? How many swords and rips he puts in?
Arbor is better if you are struggling with decks that have sac effects like shardless bug.Quote:
Reggarding to sideboarding techniques, I will share my habits, please all comment what do you think is ok and what is wrong.
MY LIST:
12 typical creatures
1x dryad arbor ----->still not sure if is correct play this, maybe safekeeper is better in this slot
agree entirely. Chalice on one is beatable but not when it is followed up with a 4/4 thoughtseize.Quote:
1x zenith
3x daze
3x fow
2x pierce ----->Im far more afraid of chalice and counterballance, so I prefer pierce over fluster
Your SB plan seems very on point and well thought out. I agree with all of your decisions. I am quicker to cut my gitaxian probes than you are but other than that I can see why you would do all of the things you do here.Quote:
2x probe
4x brainstorm
4x invigorate
3x vines
2x berserk
1x become immense
1x ponder
1x crop rotation
1x sylvan library ----->still not sure if is correct to play maindeck, if I will cut arbor (more acceleration=>library is better), I will move library to sb and play second ponder or third probe in this slot
8x fetch
4x tropical
1x pendel
1x wasteland
1x forest
4x inkmoth
SB:
2x krosan grip
2x swords
2x RIP
1x savannah
1x karakas
1x fow
2x fluster
1x needle (or sylvan library, if i cut it from MD)
1x surgical
1x safekeeper (or seal of primordium if i will cut arbor and play safekeeper main)
1x corrupter
MIRACLES
on play: -3x fow, -3x noble, +2 fluster, +2 krosan, +1 safekeeper, +1 needle
on draw: -3x daze, -3x noble, +2 fluster, +2 krosan, +1 safekeeper, +1 needle
LANDS
on play: -3x daze, -3x fow, -2x probe, -1x arbor, -1x become immense, +2 fluster, + 2x RIP, +1 corrupter, +1 safekeeper, +1 needle, + 1x savannah, +1 karakas, +1 surgical
on draw: -3x daze, -3x fow, -2x probe, -1x arbor, -1x become immense, +2 fluster, + 2x RIP, +1 safekeeper, +1 needle, + 1x savannah, +1 karakas, +1 surgical, +1 swords
ELDRAZI AGGRO(if displacer=>needle in)
on play: -3x fow, -2x probe, -1x sylvan library, +2 krosan, +1 corrupter, +1x savannah, +2x swords
on draw: -3x daze, -2x probe, -1x sylvan library, +2 krosan, +1 corrupter, +1x savannah, +2x swords
ANT
on play: -3x vines, -1x arbor, -1x forest, -1 become immense, -1x zenith, +2x fluster, +1 fow, +2 RIP, +1 surgical, +1x savannah
on draw: -3x vines, -1x arbor, -1x forest, -1 become immense, -1x zenith, +2x fluster, +1 fow, +2 RIP, +1 surgical, +1x savannah
GRIXIS DELVER
on play: -3x fow, -1x arbor, -2x probe, -1x library, +2x fluster, +1x safekeeper, +2x swords, +1 savannah, 1x needle
on draw: -3x daze, -1x arbor, -2x probe, -1x library, +2x fluster, +1x safekeeper, +2x swords, +1 savannah, 1x needle
To be continue....
Honestly, on the play I may not have any Swords and only 2 RiPs. I usually just board in them and Sylvan Library. On the draw I may bring 2-3 Plows also. I usually cut Probes, 1-2 Daze, Wasteland, Forest, and a FoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by datanaga
One thing I noticed about your SB plan is the all or nothing plan with FoW and Daze on the play/draw. I don't usually do this because I still find spots where I'm glad to have them. I guess part of my problem is I don't usually have a super defined plan and I play based on gut feeling or instinct a lot of the time. I'm probably not the best person to ask how to SB haha!
That said, if you have a plan and it works well, stick with it. It's better to do what you know and understand, than to try and force what other people tell you works. Play to your strengths, just like the Boss.
Ahhhh I not see this at all!? Thanks for pointing that out, I don't play standard (ever), so it's the first time I've ever really playtested with this card before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkii