[Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

Casual scum n00b question: With Whirlpool Rider's triggered ability, let's say you're shuffling 5 cards into your library and drawing/dredging 5 times. You can dredge into a dredger the first time, and then use that new dredger's static ability for the next dredge, and so forth, right? So you don't have to start out with 5 dredgers in your GY when Rider enters the battlefield if you want to dredge 5 times.

But you can't activate Phantasmagoria's ability from the graveyard in between dredges to dredge with the same dredger repeatedly, right? It's just that with each successive draw, you either draw, or you choose between drawing and dredging if a dredger is in your GY, even if the dredger only got there from the last dredge.

I said dredge a lot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lava Snacks

Casual scum n00b question: With Whirlpool Rider's triggered ability, let's say you're shuffling 5 cards into your library and drawing/dredging 5 times. You can dredge into a dredger the first time, and then use that new dredger's static ability for the next dredge, and so forth, right? So you don't have to start out with 5 dredgers in your GY when Rider enters the battlefield if you want to dredge 5 times.

But you can't activate Phantasmagoria's ability from the graveyard in between dredges to dredge with the same dredger repeatedly, right? It's just that with each successive draw, you either draw, or you choose between drawing and dredging if a dredger is in your GY, even if the dredger only got there from the last dredge.

I said dredge a lot.

---

Yes if you only have one dredger in your yard when you start and find another one as you go you get to keep dredging until you have drawn/dredged 5 times. It is also correct that you can't activate Phantasmagorian in the middle of resolving the ability from the rider. Each draw is treated separately which is why you can dredge each one or choose to draw the card if your library is getting to low on cards.

Great, thanks.

Yo I'm loving learning all the tricks; this deck is a blast.

The trick that tickled me today was a probably obvious and elementary one with Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian. When activating Phantasmagorian's ability twice, it hadn't occurred to me to activate it to discard a dredger and wait for the second, maintain priority and activate Wraith, and then activate it a second time when its ability was back on top of the stack, based on what I dredged, to get stuff on top of a dredged Nether Shadow or whatever, or even to decide not to activate it a second time for whatever reason, or to (and I think this is my favorite) activate the ability then to once again discard the same dredger that I binned the first time and activated with Wraith.

What do you guys choose to do against Sneak & Show when you have a Force of Will and blue card in hand, plus a Whirlpool Rider, and they cast Show and Tell? Obviously it's dependent on other cards in the graveyard and game state, but I was wondering about Forcing the SnT, or just letting it go, knowing that my Rider will probably win the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lava Snacks

What do you guys choose to do against Sneak & Show when you have a Force of Will and blue card in hand, plus a Whirlpool Rider, and they cast Show and Tell? Obviously it's dependent on other cards in the graveyard and game state, but I was wondering about Forcing the SnT, or just letting it go, knowing that my Rider will probably win the game.

---

There is 2 possibility for him : Griselbrand or Emrakul. If he put Griselbrand and is full tap, he will draw 14 into maybe petal and force of will but won't create more threat. And Emrakul we don't really care. So if he is full tap and I have a dredger I put the Whirlpool Rider and dredge 7 into my draw, into 3 Cabal that he have to force and I basically win the game thanks to him ;)

@Lava Snacks: Another fun one is cycling a Street Wraith into another dredge or activating Phantasmagorian to get more Prized Amalgams in the yard as reaction to a Narcomoeba trigger :laugh:

I.e you dredge a Moeba into the yard, let the trigger go on the stack and in response cycle Street Wraith/dredge some more or activate Phantasmagorian to discard in-hand Amalgams so they see the Moeba hit the field and trigger themselves

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xenio

There is 2 possibility for him : Griselbrand or Emrakul. If he put Griselbrand and is full tap, he will draw 14 into maybe petal and force of will but won't create more threat. And Emrakul we don't really care. So if he is full tap and I have a dredger I put the Whirlpool Rider and dredge 7 into my draw, into 3 Cabal that he have to force and I basically win the game thanks to him ;)

---

There's a bunch of sneak and show that are running 2 omniscience. He can also put sneak attack into play if he has the mana to kill you (maybe), but would have to sneak in emrakul.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mistercakes

There's a bunch of sneak and show that are running 2 omniscience. He can also put sneak attack into play if he has the mana to kill you (maybe), but would have to sneak in emrakul.

---

Omni is the card that scares me the most without Chancellor of the annex. If we put in something the flips are Library and they have a hasty emrakul it's still not the end of the game as long as we have more than 15 life. We sacrifice some number of narcomoebas and such to the Annihilator trigger and get zombies. Then we get amalgams at end of turn and our ichorids and Shadows on our upkeep. As long as we have progenitus or a card to draw we should just win. Now a hasty emrakul and griselbrand is lights out.

My favorite line of play is to discard a Phantasmagorian turn 1, activate it in the opponent's second main discarding one or more dredgers, in response cycle Street Wraith and dredge. Hopefully we hit a Narco and we get to return any Prized Amalgams discarded or milled in their end step.

Long Time Manaless Dredger First time Poster looking to for Ideas for MD/SB options.

I have always been fond of this deck as it was my first deck in to the format. This was a deck that help grind my way to a playset of both Force of Will and Tropical Island so I'd like to bring it back to my meta with a vengeance in the face of prison decks, control and the reassurance of goblins in my meta.

The Mainboard is pretty stock and there isn't much going on aside from some choice card selections that are currently under going some testing. I paid more attention to the sideboard.

With the sideboard I went all in on the Leyline hate plan. I have tried a different sideboard in the past running Nature's Claim but I found it weak to discard/ chalice prior my obtaining of Forces. With this board I am kind of hedging that my opponent will try to mull to Leyline of the Void for the hypothetical Turn 0 win. Alternatively, this is where I can mull and be potentially rewarded by hitting either Land Grant or Bayou with Reverent Silence or hit a fast enough start with Land Grant + Cabal Therapy to negate that Turn 1 Do Nothing on Games 2 & Game 3.

This plan is admittedly soft to Grafdigger's Cage without Force backup or Turn 0 Chancellor Tax. I've been looking into ways around it but with the Leyline Hate package there isn't much wiggle room to work with.


Its still a work in progress to see if it is viable .

Also trying to answer how to sideboard the Leyline Hate plan either cutting 6 cards or adding in 6.

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

MB

4x Narcomoeba
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Grave Troll
4x Street Wraith
4x Ichorid
4x Prized Amalgam
4x Phantasmagorian
4x Golgari Thug
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return
4x Bridge from Below
4x Force of Will
3x Shambling Shell
3x Chancellor of the Annex
3x Balustrade Spy
1x Griselbrand
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
1x Laboratory Maniac ( A new addition as a possible win con + additional blue card)




SB

1x Progenitus
1x Realm Razer
1x Contagion
1x Sickening Shoal
1x Bayou
2x Land Grant
2x Ashen Rider
3x Reverent Silence
3x Mindbreak Trap

Laboratory Maniac is an incredibly risky wincon for this deck as it'll either have to survive for a turn or you'll have to have a Street Wraith in hand the turn you DR it. Why bother with that if Flayer means a guaranteed kill the same turn you DR it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

Laboratory Maniac is an incredibly risky wincon for this deck as it'll either have to survive for a turn or you'll have to have a Street Wraith in hand the turn you DR it. Why bother with that if Flayer means a guaranteed kill the same turn you DR it?

---

I agree that lab man is risky. I do know someone playing with lab man and elvish visionary as their main win con. I have been trying to get them switch to flyer but they like lab man.

Yup, seems like a much safer and more robust way to win the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

Yup, seems like a much safer and more robust way to win the game.

---

I believe he plays 1 lab man and 2 visionary. The down side is of course that lab man and visionary are not black for ichorids. Beyond that I don't think I matters how you win once you flip your library, only that you do win

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

Laboratory Maniac is an incredibly risky wincon for this deck as it'll either have to survive for a turn or you'll have to have a Street Wraith in hand the turn you DR it. Why bother with that if Flayer means a guaranteed kill the same turn you DR it?

---

The idea in theory is to minimize the amount of Dread Return to set up a window to win. Most Flayer wins need 3 Dread Returns minimum which leaves 1 Dread Return as a flex slot or counter fodder without full information with Cabal Therapy.

I am not going to deny that it is a risky line but its one of several options the deck has in its arsenal albeit a risky one.. I don't think it will be a permanent stay in the MB. It either doesn't work out or proves its worth. It just an idea i'm tinkering around with adding more win cons to the deck that don't with through damage as to get from under certain creatures/lands that prevent damage.

The safer line for the Lab Man play would still involve 3 Dread Return as I would have to get Azami, Lady of Scrolls to tap Lab Man to win after Spy mills me out. Might have to go that route for this line.

Just DR Flayer and let triggers do the rest..?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

Just DR Flayer and let triggers do the rest..?

---

That'll do it most of the time.
Flayer + Flayer with Undying + 4xPrized Amalgam = 4+5+4x3 = 21 damage worth of triggers.
Yet another reason I'd never cut a Prized Amalgam.

Yup :laugh:

.... and just flayer + prized amalgam you can kill a Griselbrand :)

what do you guys think of?

Blazing Shoal, with Dragon Tyrant, reaper king. Sneaking in an extra 10 damage seems pretty sweet. Im gonna try it main -4 probe (after ban) -4 therapy (worse after probe ban) - 2 shambling shell

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noloam_

what do you guys think of?

Blazing Shoal, with Dragon Tyrant, Myojin of Infinite Rage. Sneaking in an extra 10 damage seems pretty sweet. Im gonna try it main -4 probe (after ban) -4 therapy (worse after probe ban) - 2 shambling shell

---

So hedging on having a 4-off + a 6-off in your opening 8 for something that gets countered by literally everything and that's completely useless in your GY and can't be fed to Ichorid at the cost of your combo enabler (Therapy, which you use to prevent DR from getting countered), your replacement for Probe and 2 dredgers..?

No. Horrible, horrible plan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

So hedging on having a 4-off + a 6-off in your opening 8 for something that gets countered by literally everything and that's completely useless in your GY and can't be fed to Ichorid at the cost of your combo enabler (Therapy, which you use to prevent DR from getting countered), your replacement for Probe and 2 dredgers..?

No. Horrible, horrible plan.

---

when the counter the shoal they dont have the counter for the DR right? if they dont have the counter, you have a blow out. The cards are not useless in your graveyard, the red creatures are extra creatures to trigger nether shadow. Therapy and probe were not feeding the ichorid either, so that is a false comparison.

also having a blow out before they are able to cast rip/containment priest seems pretty sweet to me

I'd rather bank on having CT in my GY to clear counters than on having 2 specific cards in my hand.

As for the blowout before RiP/Containment Priest - 10 damage is far from lethal and therefor irrelevant if you're dead in the water afterwards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noloam_

what do you guys think of?

Blazing Shoal, with Dragon Tyrant, reaper king. Sneaking in an extra 10 damage seems pretty sweet. Im gonna try it main -4 probe (after ban) -4 therapy (worse after probe ban) - 2 shambling shell

---

Cutting Therapies...

Easily the worst advice in this thread.:rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

Just DR Flayer and let triggers do the rest..?

---

This would do it most of the time. But I was thinking of ways to win around cards like Glacial Chasm. Where it severely limits the level of damage based interaction.

I have played matches against cards like Platinum Emperion and it can be worked around with enough damage triggers to kill the 8/8. But the Chasm stands in the way of any Damage based win.

Most decks that run it, I find that I wouldn't want to sideboard the hate against it granted its usually a one of.


In my SB Ashen Rider and Realm Razer deal with it fine but its situational to set up the optimal condition to get it out on board without fully combo'ing out with Spy using more copies of DR to get the job done.


It's something I'm going to test further seeing as the Alt-Win Con with Lab Man and Azami, Lady of Scrolls ups the Blue card count up a tad bit percentage wise making it less likely to wiff with hands with a Force of Will.


I don't expect to win with it often but its a trick I can have in the main board in case I run this specific problem and don't sideboard for it.

what do you guys think of hollow one? since it comboes with phantosmogorian. or sidecases like: with multiple streets wraight or if you run multiple gigapedes, or therapy yourself for perhaps multiples, Or discard faerie macabre (which i run main)

Again dead in the GY.

It's a thing in Vintage b/c of Bazaar of Baghdad. Unfortunately we don't have tools like that. If it has a place in Legacy it's in regular dredge, since that runs stuff like Faithless Looting, Breakthrough and Cephalid Coliseum which actually help you draw into it. And even there it doesn't see any play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

Again dead in the GY.

It's a thing in Vintage b/c of Bazaar of Baghdad. Unfortunately we don't have tools like that. If it has a place in Legacy it's in regular dredge, since that runs stuff like Faithless Looting, Breakthrough and Cephalid Coliseum which actually help you draw into it. And even there it doesn't see any play.

---

How is chancellor of the annex not almost just as dead in the graveyard?

how is phantasomogorian worse then bazaar for the hollow one effect? if even works from the graveyard if you did not have it in your opener. which makes it even easier

Bazaar helps you draw into Hollow One(s) (and provides additional dredges to boot), Phantasmagorian just discards cards... Bazaar >> Phantasmagorian.

A DR'd Chancellor is probably good enough to win most MUs, including some very poor ones (ANT/TES comes to mind), those MUs care very little about a resolved 4/4.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

Bazaar helps you draw into Hollow One(s), Phantasmagorian just discards cards...

A DR'd Chancellor is probably good enough to win most MUs, including some very poor ones (ANT/TES comes to mind), those MUs care very little about a resolved 4/4.

---

yes but you still need to have it in your opener. You do not need phantasmogorian in your opener. all the sidecases together also make it reasonable.

that only goes for the sidecase where you dont have any better dread return targets. a chancellor vs almost all non storm matches is still very poor

The payoff for Bazaar is that you win on T1/2... Phantasmagorian is just a necessary tool, without any payoff.

As for Chancellor - a DR'd Chancellor > a DR'd Hollow One 100% of the time. A Chancellor in your opener might be the difference between you getting disrupted to hell in your postboard games and actually standing a fighting chance. Hollow One does not slow down hate in the slightest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

The payoff for Bazaar is that you win on T1/2... Phantasmagorian is just a necessary tool, without any payoff.

As for Chancellor - a DR'd Chancellor > a DR'd Hollow One 100% of the time. A Chancellor in your opener might be the difference between you getting disrupted to hell in your postboard games and actually standing a fighting chance. Hollow One does not slow down hate in the slightest.

---

im not sure why that comparison is relevant to the discussion

yeah 100% of the time. but that still makes it a terrible DR target. the chance that chancellor steal any game by fighting graveyard hate post board is almost 0, since you are almost always on the draw

Chancellor's trigger resolves before anyone's T1 begins. And a smart opponent puts you on the play so they'll get a free card out of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

Chancellor's trigger resolves before anyone's T1 begins. And a smart opponent puts you on the play so they'll get a free card out of it.

---

Yeah thats my whole point. you cant do anything before they get to play a land. so the can still crypt, cage you all day. i dont see how chancellor is helping here

It's a hail Mary, which is still better than nothing. It might also just delay them a turn so you get to cast Unmask. It has mattered a non-zero number of times in the years I've played it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

It's a hail Mary, which is still better than nothing. It might also just delay them a turn so you get to cast Unmask. It has mattered a non-zero number of times in the years I've played it.

---

i prefer a more aggressive aggro game 1 and bring in the complete nature claim/r.silence package side, because i think losing to random leylines is just stupid. Thats better than a hail mary in my opinion

https://ibb.co/c116nz

phantasmogorian into hollow one also goes through a containment priest / cage btw

Ah yes, more banking on having several specific cards in hand that fold to every single counter your opponent plays.

It's very nice that you can cast Hollow One through Cage/Priest, but it still gets answered by Daze/FoW and in itself is hardly enough to close out a game, even if you manage to resolve 2.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

Ah yes, more banking on having several specific cards in hand that fold to every single counter your opponent plays.

It's very nice that you can cast Hollow One through Cage/Priest, but it still gets answered by Daze/FoW and in itself is hardly enough to close out a game, even if you manage to resolve 2.

---

the decks that play leyline 99% of the time dont play counters. aggro loam and eldrazi

if a counter spell is your counter argument for everything, then nobody can ever change your mind

Basic math is my main argument.

If your opponent plays counters it's most likely you will not be able to resolve a given card when you need it (due to how many your opponent plays and the cantrips they run). Assuming your opponent always drops a land on their first turn there's a 65% chance they'll have either Daze or FoW, if no cantrip was played. If they did play a cantrip or do so in response to whatever you play, your odds become even worse. So basically you'll have a 35% chance of resolving something important on the first go. And this is if they were silly enough to put you on the draw.

If you board in the green hate package it's most likely that you will not have both card X and card Y when you need them (due to how many of each you play). The most consistent result here would come from a 8/7 split, which means you'll have a .71 * .65 = about 46% chance of having it in your opening 8.

A 35% and 46% succes rate are not rates I like. In those cases I'll just try to be as speedy as possible and hope I'm fast enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

Basic math is my main argument.

If your opponent plays counters it's most likely you will not be able to resolve a given card when you need it (due to how many your opponent plays and the cantrips they run). Assuming your opponent always drops a land on their first turn there's a 65% chance they'll have either Daze or FoW, if no cantrip was played. If they did play a cantrip or do so in response to whatever you play, your odds become even worse. So basically you'll have a 35% chance of resolving something important on the first go. And this is if they were silly enough to put you on the draw.

If you board in the green hate package it's most likely that you will not have both card X and card Y when you need them (due to how many of each you play). The most consistent result here would come from a 8/7 split, which means you'll have a .71 * .65 = about 46% chance of having it in your opening 8.

A 35% and 46% succes rate are not rates I like. In those cases I'll just try to be as speedy as possible and hope I'm fast enough.

---

i just told you 99% of the leyline decks dont play blue. so it does work

yes that is also was my math. about 50% chance. Better than a 100% scoop rate vs decks that mull to leyline. you cant outspeed a leyline, no matter how high your hopes are