Pretty sure storm copies don't get countered by dovescape
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Pretty sure storm copies don't get countered by dovescape
Currently on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobo
8 Fetchlands
6 Basics
4 Duals
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Academy Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Collective Brutality
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Lingering Souls
2 Sterling Grove
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Evolutionary Leap
1 Starfield of Nyx
1 Nether Void
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Cruel Reality
1 Sandwurm Convergence
3 Sensei's Divining Top
------------
1 Humility
1 Living Plane
1 City of Solitude
1 Seal of Primordium
3 Carpet of Flowers
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
Sideboard isn't tested. The Seal of Primordium might want to just be a Faith's Fetters or something. Humility could go maindeck but probably isn't needed there. I am a little worried about not having many consistent answers to big scary creatures, but Sandwurm Convergence and Cruel Reality do pretty good work even if not 100% of the time, and the deck also has a lot of discard spells + Leylines in the sideboard at least.
You're right, thanks. I edited my last post to reflect that.Quote:
Originally Posted by mstephenson
I like the list, and will be sleeving up something pretty similar soon. As far as Seal of Primordium goes, we face so many Pithing Needles and Revokers on Pernicious Deed that it's great to have in the board. But with Cruel Reality and Sandwurm Convergence, maybe we just don't care as much as we used to if they lock up our Deeds. Actually, there's no maybe about it: we don't care as much as we used to. I'm tempted to drop it for a Toxic Deluge or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Not sure if Deluge is what we want. We already have a lot of stabilization post board, especially if we're bringing in Humility. To be honest it might want to be more combo hate, like Chains of Mephistopheles, or something to help against Burn and Delver like Chromanticore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobo
Hi guys,
I've managed to get away from my parenting obligations, and did bring nyx fit to the party :-)
I've tested the evolution build, here is the list :
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector
2 Eternal Witness
1 Eidolon of Blossoms
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 evolutionary leap
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sterling Grove
1 Starfield of Nyx
1 Living Plane
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Parallax Wave
1 curse of death's hold
1 cruel reality
1 leyline of sancity
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Plains
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Cavern of Souls
notable are : the 2 evolutionary, the 2nd cavern, leyline main, collective brutality.
@ darwin : they varied from godsend to do nothing. requiring G to activate is tough. my build did have too many creatures (so I didn't evolve into rector or dora) but also too few (and it sat in my hand or on the board and waited for a sacrificial lamb).
But the good times are so good :smile: evolving (or should I say leaping ? ) explorer into another explorer is so good. (turn 3 : seven lands, leap on board and rector in hand)
@ plato : it felt nice to draw it more often, never a time when I whished it was another land.
@ leyline : it played the role of hardcastable maindeck anticombo with a side serving of free win for desert. Nice, will continue to run it in the place of nether void.
@ brutality : love them ! Flexible as a cirque du soleil contorsionnist. I normally use it one mode at a time, being weak sauce removal or shitty duress (I feel I'm really selling the dream here) but the possibility to have a second effect and drop cruel reality in the yard is nice. Also I lived the dream VS burn and killed a goblin guide, discarded a price of progress and regained 2 life , on turn 2 :smile:
To fix the too many creatures/too few creatures problem with evolutionary leap I'll try a few lingering souls as sugested. I've tried them in stonefit and they were awesome.
Also I wonder about the 4cc removal (cast out/faith's fetter/ parallax wave) I would feel a bit naked without any lifegain in the deck and wave gains so much time and gives you instant speed interaction (well plow could be better, it is worse when you're winning but so faster)
I'm also wondering if playing reality and sandwurm is needed or overkill ?
The deck is a blast, lovin it!
U eldrazi : 2-1 they're fast.
esper stoneblade : 2-0 deed is all they saw.
burn : 2/0 game 1 turn 2 brutality mortal kombat style then tutor for leyline , game 2 started with leyline.
junk : 1-2 hymn removes my creatures, leap is an useless piece of cardboard and my mana is so weak I can't cast my 4cc spells :-(
TLDR : will trim creatures for souls, fetters/wave for plows. will continue to test leyline instead of void. will play sandwurm instead of living plane. The deck is a blast, loving it !
I'll have to check those out. Appreciate all the knowledge being dropped in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Whether or not it's knowledge is questionable. I'm a theorist and deck builder more than anything else, but I'm still just some random person on the internet. Some of my ideas have been inspired by others, but if what I say doesn't make sense, there's nothing wrong with that either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Blood
What I can say is the two most useful things I have found in years of coming up with ideas, and coming up with ways to test them are this:
#1. More land is better. Most people play far too few lands, this includes my SE builds, though I actually discipline myself and play 25 for Burn (yes, that's most optimal).
#2. Always run lower numbers of similar effects so that cards can cover each others weaknesses. That's why I run 2/1 Tracker/Courser for example. Don't underestimate leaving open the chance of actually drawing something useful. It happens more often than you think.
Collective Brutality can play a very big role in decks that are running proper curves. You can get away with more lands, while still converting unneeded lands into actual effects. Similarly, I think Brutality changes the optimal curve distribution for the same reason, it's a good way to smooth out clunkier hands. It's possible both of those only apply to Modern though since FoW wrecks it. Brutality is closer to just being a modal spell in Legacy.
Maybe perspective is a better word? There's a nice group of people here who have spent a ton of time playing and thinking about this deck. I'm just barely getting my feet wet relatively speaking. So I really appreciate the group that posts here. I know its helped me think about things on a much higher level. And its honestly rare (especially on the internet) to see thoughtful discussion and debate without devolving into the typical bullshit. That being said I have my own theories that are developing with more time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Hopefully I will get a chance to play a bit more as life has caught up to me this month and I've been relegated to the kitchen table as of late. Most likely I'll be going to the prerelease this weekend and usually there's guys playing legacy in between games and on the side so I'll bring my Nic Fit along. Should be some fun.
I like your approach to the deck because in my experience the worst games for me are failing to ramp and getting stuck with a bunch of high CMC cards with 2-3 lands on board. I've been trying to find a way around that without losing the ability to out-grind the Delver and BUG decks of the world. Winning the grind game was always my preference anyway. Its my personal goal to make Loam work in a Nic Fit shell. One day...
@Navsi: while i'm missing it, playing a single creature like sigarda in a list with Leap means you have the 10-12% of possibility to hit her and "block" the chain, losing some of the Leap power. Same thought about blossom for Plm. Dryad is a good choice in this case because it's a free spell to start the chain if you are low of fuel but large with lands.
@Leyline W\: I don't really see the point about it: i mean, sure it's good vs certain decks, but for example vs Burn it doesn't stop his creature, neither Pop, Rift and Vortex. Not enough good.
it don't interfere too much with storm neither, being way worse for example than Eidolon of Rethoric.
Moreover, it does nothing against Elves, S&T and Reanimator, that are the most used combos in Italy at least, while it's an hard time for Ant. So i don't see the point of investing so many slots for it when 4 times on 5 (for example, but the number are even worst) is useless. Way better Lost Legacy, Nether Void, Dovescape, more discards ecc.
I don't know about reality/Sandwurm, but me neither will play both of them. Wurm has the big downside of being a veeeeeeeeeery slow wincondition under Humility, though.
@Leap: I will add that i will not play it without one (of both, better) of Lingering (that's awesome, probably want a 2x) or Dryad.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm really, really proud of the community that we have built up here. Each and every poster in this thread puts in a lot of time, effort, heart, and soul to making this archetype perpetually better, and I attribute our perpetually increasing refinement and success to that strong backing ethic. I don't believe the same can be said for any other deck in any other format, and indeed is rare to find in life in general, in my experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Blood
Leyline depends on what combo you are seeing a lot of. Getting it out for free is a pretty nice plus. It forces storm to go down the goblins route which we have answers for. It blanks 1/3 of Burn's cards and leaves them with stuff we answer easily (again with removal + Deed). We also are always happy blocking with the creatures we have against them. Leyline also has incidental but not insignificant value against opposing discard, Liliana, and Jace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Memories of the Time
Against SnT of course it does nothing, but it's not for that matchup. What would you rather tutor for if you get a Rector trigger off of them anyway - Nether Void or Sandwurm/Cruel? I keep thinking that SnT can still Show and Tell yah even under Nether Void - they play basics to keep up with us on Vet triggers, along with Tombs and petals. Can't imagine you have too many turns before they get to 6 mana. But I admit I'd like some more practice against them. Sideboard Humility, Lost Legacy (if you choose it), additional discard does help.
And Elves - not sure why you wouldn't be prioritizing Curse/Deed over Nether Void or other enchantments, so that doesn't matter.
Reanimator I do see Nether Void being pretty optimum against. If you can prevent Tidespout from sticking though, then Sandwurm keeps them at bay, and Cruel also does good work. So it's not like you are completely left in the dust if you don't have Nether Void even against them.
What's your thought on Gideon's Intervention for that slot? It's versatile in that it can be both proactive and reactive, and works against both creatures and non-creatures. It's great against many forms of combo—we can Rector for it in response to Tendrils! It can answer more than one Delver, or more than one anything, really, as long as it's not a resolved planeswalker. Faith's Fetters was once our answer to planeswalkers, but now Cruel Reality exists, and perhaps that opens up space for an effect like Gideon's Intervention instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
In my view, we have a damned hard decision to make in regard to Faith's Fetters vs. Cast Out vs. Gideon's Intervention as the four-mana white enchantment-based removal of choice (to say nothing of the old stalwart Parallax Wave).
I don't like Gideon's Intervention, primarily for the same reason as Leyline. It stops Tendrils but it doesn't stop Storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobo
Our clock is terrible - we're definitely not going to be killing Storm before turn ~7, probably later, since our only way of actually killing people is Cruel Reality / Sandwurm Convergence / shitty creatures, which means once we resolve a second rector trigger we have a ~4 turn clock. Second rector trigger (or hardcast a 7-8 drop) isn't going to happen until turn 4-5 most likely, which means they aren't dying until turn 8-10.
This means combo decks get a lot of time to cantrip and draw into an answer for our lock pieces. They can draw a lot of cards in that time, and they have a lot of ways of finding answers by tutoring for Chain of Vapor or whatever. We have Sterling Grove to help us with that, but then our lock requires even more cards before we get anywhere (and we still lose if TES goes Wish -> Reverent Silence, or potentially to Empty the Warrens).
If our lock against Storm is 'protection from Tendrils' they have ways around it, and we aren't restricting them on time enough to prevent them from finding it. It's way less reliable than Nether Void, because Nether Void has the advantage of also stopping them from cantripping effectively and makes it harder for them to go off in the first place and tutor up their answers to the lock.
I don't think we need an Oblivion Ring / Cast Out / Faith's Fetters variant in the deck. Previously it was necessary so we could Rector for an answer to Jace, but now we don't need it because Cruel Reality and Sandwurm Convergence fulfil that role, so we're pretty much never going to need to Rector for this removal. That means we can afford to instead run cheaper, faster removal like Swords/Decay/Brutality which helps us stabilize more effectively.
Evolutionary Leap: I don't think having a chain ender in Sigarda is much of a problem. Yeah, you don't get any more Leaps, but you have a lot of ways of restarting the chain and it's not like you have nothing. If you really need an answer you can still pitch Sigarda, but in the meantime you have a Sigarda. I think having a card we can Zenith for that actually does something on its own is important.
Random thought: Vizier of the Menagerie turns Worldly Tutor into (a strictly better) Green Sun's Zenith #5-8.
@Navsi: i've seen now that in the MB you play Curse but no Plane/Dovescape/Humility, so you don't have an hard lock against anything. I really can't understand why we would choose to play 2 ench at a very high cost that don't close the game and overleap themselves, while renuncing at a very easy to assemble hard-lock (especially with Leap!).
I mean, your list loses a lot of answers in g1 for what? To gain +2 Stp and +2 Brutal collectivity? More early interaction needed in games like Burn and Elves where you anyway have no hard lock and a real hope to close the game before them?
@square_two: No, as said by navsi above Leyline is the worst hate possible against storm. He can just combo out and tutor a chain, for example. Why are you talking about value against Lili and Jace? Are you bringing it against Shardless or any other deck with them? I don't think so.
S&T: Boys, i really don't know why we are discussing about Leyline when the most competitive, strong and numerous combo is S&T (and the second one Elves), against which Leyline does nothing. Really.
Combo is -in general- our worst MU and why are you relying massively on a card that does nothing against most of them?
The best trigger against them is obv Sandwurm then Humility, but the point is that none of them matter against Omnitell, that can be stopped basically only from Dovescape.
What are we trying to hardlock against? Any 2 of Sandwurm Convergence / Cruel Reality / Curse of Death's Hold pretty much completely locks out every deck in the format that isn't all-in combo. These cards already shut down 99% of outs, and going up to 100% off Living Plane is a benefit, but not a big enough one to justify a card that's pretty terrible whenever we draw it and often just doesn't do anything in a matchup. In the sideboard it can still end games against fair decks but isn't as likely to end up in our hand in matchups where we don't want it. It's a solid lock piece but it's just not necessary most of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Memories of the Time
Seriously, what deck do we actually need Living Plane against?
Miracles - We can already kill all their stuff. Sandwurms and CReality end the game quickly. LPlane would help but frankly if we're getting two Rector triggers we're going to win anyway, just put cruel reality + curse of death's hold on them.
Midrange - Sandwurms pretty much shut the deck down. It's not like they have many answers to it, and even if they do we can recur it and we still have a pile of 5/5s. This matchup is already super favored for us, why are were trying to make it better at the expense of aggro/combo?
Delver / Burn - We don't have time to search up stuff like Plane. More cheap removal is way more relevant. CReality ends the game unless they are a Pyro build, in which case Curse of Death's Hold does instead. Sandwurms also are an unanswerable game ender.
D&T - Curse of Death's Hold already pretty much wins us the game. Cruel Reality kills Mirran Crusaders just fine. I guess if they have Leonin Relic Warder they can theoretically do something about you, but you know what's good against him? Brutality/Swords, again.
Combo - Nether Void. They're too fast for us to rely on a second Rector trigger anyway.
Congratulations, you have officially hyped this deck up for me. I want to play nether void in legacy, in particular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Since I'm going to assemble this contraption from scratch and I have to buy some tickets, lend me a hand: what are the absolute staples of the deck that I have to buy first? What are the cards that you listed and are not 100% sure to stay in the deck and you are still testing?
You seem to be pretty hyped for the new AKH cards, although they seem pretty expensive to be cast normally.
Seems nice, but we would have to rely on Vizier being on the battlefield. With that in mind, how much would we want Worldly Tutor if Vizier is not on the battlefield. If we would run Worldly Tutor, could that warrant a package of non-green silver bullets? I suppose that it could potentially increase the combo match-up to drop T2 Cannonist and whatnot. Tutor and Top can also be used for some trickery in response to Show and Tell for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
The point is that with jest few different cards you can answer a far wider range of decks. As said before i'm in love with Humility, a single card that's usefull against 80% of the field and win by theirself MU otherwise difficult (Elves and S&T). Elves doesnt' give damn vs Sandwurm or Cruel, and even Curse is often not enough, neither anything else you play beside Humility. And Elves is a MU that you have to consider, at least in my meta.
Other not so good Mu with your list: Eldrazi. You can't deed them (realistically), if you put Sandwurm or Cruel they probably beats you anyway too fast. The only card that can save you here is Moat (for example), or again Humility.
@Miracle: Yes, you will take Curse+Cruel, just to let them exile one of them with Council and than snap-council the other one? Or just play Entreat and gg?
The reality is that only Dovescape+Curse can safe you against Miracle, obviously since we are talking about the strongest deck around. Both Cruel and Sandwurm are not so good there alone, sadly, and they can easily control and win with Jace if there's only one of the three ench in play.
@Midrange: Yes, but they are the only decks that can have Maelstrom Pulse, + Snap and decay for Grove ecc. And cruel is pretty bad when they can just sac a drs or a strix and beat us with Goyf/nemesi and so on.
@Burn: As above, the mu isn't good, and stp is good here for sure, but the only way to be sure to win is Cop: Red. With no lifegain they can just play 2 pop/fireblast/vortex and win at any time.
@Delver: Here the point is not what ench you play, but the structure: glad to see that you too play 3 Carpet, i'm totally sold about it.
@D&T: As above, is about the structure. Another MU where spot removal can really help us, for sure.
@Combo: as said before, "Nether void" can't be enough in any case. Elves has Craddle and a board before we cast it, S&T can just wait to have 6 lands (another reason: Nether+Veteran is not that good).
Boss, i don't know if you are misunderstanding me, i'm not saying that spot removal is bad. I just don't like Stp over 3° decay or 3° C.Brutality, that's my point, as said before.
And, to make things even more difficult, what would we cut to accommodate any Worldy Tutors? Sheesh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Most of the Miracles lists around me aren't playing CJ, and those that do are only playing one. Even in that scenario, Sandwurm Convergence still ends the game. If you're on an Entreat plan rather than Mentor, just swap Curse for Sandwurm Convergence. They can beat you if they have double CJ into Terminus the Wurm tokens or something along those lines, but they need literally everything (Judgment, Terminus, Snapcaster, and a threat) to not lose and I'm ok with that in game 1. We still have Living Plane for game 2. Also Dovescape + Curse doesn't deal with Keranos, and the other problem is that Dovescape is very risky to cast because they might just kill us out of nowhere with a ton of birds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Memories of the Time
Midrange - If they have a board presence, Sandwurm Convergence makes their day pretty bad, and also kills them eventually. If they don't have a board presence, they lose to Cruel Reality. Humility is all well and good but I'd rather not turn off my own Rectors, thanks very much - if I land Humility without immediate followup I'm risking them just making Jace and enging the game immediately.
Elves we can fetch Curse rather than NVoid if they have a board. S&T folds to Sandwurm, Nether Void beats Omnitell.
I think you're trying to hit 100% lockout too much. Humility, Living Plane and Dovescape all have very real downsides and risk you being unable to prevent the opponent from using it against you, and have matchups where they are awkward or actively bad for you. I'd rather play the effects I have at the moment because they are a lot less likely to cause problems for me, and they don't get wrecked if you draw them in the wrong order / at the wrong time / your opponent sneaks something onto the battlefield before you can put the other half of your combo down. Humility in particular is even worse because it removes your best source of answers (Rector).
On Nyx Fit - have you guys thought of combining Moat + Sandwurm Convergence? When combined it says no creature can attack you. All you need now is a (quick) kill condition.
Moat, on its own, gives you enough time to deal w/ Elves! and shuts down Eldrazi/D&T nicely. It also doesn't mess with your own plans under any circumstance.
Too many matchups where it does nothing / not enough. Elves, Eldrazi and BUG midrange are the only decks which it really shuts out much, and we already have reasonable matchups against two of those. Curse of Death's Hold or Pernicious Deed probably deals with Elves more effectively while having more relevance elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Deed is a nice get-out-of-jail-free card, but it's likely you can't activate it the turn you tutor it via Rector. Curse does shut down the Elves! tap/untap machinegun DRS, so you do have a very valid point there.
You can if you sacrificed Rector to Phyrexian Tower, but yeah it can be difficult if you're using Therapy instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Moreover, Curse is far from being a gg against Elves. They have Nissa and Natural order for Behemot to close the game with just 3 between Nettle and drs, for example. And they can easily destroy Curse with a Reclamation, for example.
@Navsi: i don't play living plane, anyway. Entreat is now widely played as 2x often, as you can see from the most successful builds on Tcdecks, while Mentor is decreasing. I don't see Keranos being played at all, otherwise, in the last... two years?
Nether Void don't beats Omnitell, at all: it slows him for X turns, where X could even be 1-2 by just grabbing some answer with Cunning Wish.
I understand your thoughts about less risky-no hardlock cards, but i simply don't think that's the best way to follow for a deck like our, especially in a list with Leap that can easily chain 2 rectors. Moreover, i'm playing Sandwurm =)
Edit: anyway i don't see the reason of playing Curse maindeck without any lock linked to it, since its' bad/dead in many MU.
Feels like people are forgetting that we still play Deed in Nyx Fit. That still covers a lot of bases.
Anyhow all this comparing between 1-of's is incredibly tiring for me, honestly it's putting me off the deck before I've even had a chance to test the new cards. Will try to just come back next week with thoughts from testing.
Please keep in mind that this deck in particular is more meta-dependent than most nic fit variants and people will end up shaping both their sideboard AND mainboard to appropriately deal with what they face locally and what they expect at large. This will shape people's decisions, even if we try to generally keep our theorizing at a "general meta" type of level.
I'd play Living Plane before messing around with Humility and Dovescape.Quote:
Originally Posted by Memories of the Time
Miracles' non-Jace options can all be answered by Deed at the very least. If you don't see many Mentors around you can probably also cut Curse.
Void means after Showing Omniscience, their fastest option is to Wish (next turn) and then cast (the turn after) a card that either answers Void or finds Emrakul. That's a lot of time when you consider we have a lot of outs to this plan and two turns to cast them in - 6+ discard spells and 4 Rectors all stop them - Rector either getting Sandwurm Convergence / Cruel Reality if they make Emrakul, or Sterling Grove if they try to kill Nether Void.
Dropping the Curse maindeck is probably fine. I see a lot of D&T in my meta.
Elves is able to avoid moat and can come back from death's hold thanks to reclamation sage. Unless you add a sterling grove on the board (does not work enought to save moat since they can recure it with symbiot)Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Does Nyx Fit not run doomwake just because it isn't a static ability? Because that dude is a fucking fisting in Enchantress
@ doomwake giant : previous list played him but it is clunky with evo-leap, hence curse of death's hold. Also we don't play as much enchantement as they do, so he isn't reliable.
@ lock : do we need an hard lock ? I mean an heavy lock could work as well, or some trash lock, even punk lock :tongue:. More seriously the dream of dovescape + curse + humility + living plane is nice but a bit overkill. In game I've never ever gone for the living plane + curse lock. Either I have other things to do (like you know stayin' alive (ah ah ah stayin' alive)) or I'm already winning (thank you nicol bolas for this cruel reality). But I could see playing void to win some time, but the nombo with explorer worries me.
@ sterling grove : I'm questioning myself (and by the way you kind sirs) about sterling grove. most of the time G1 they don't have enchantment hate (only decay :laugh: try to remove sandwurm with that, suckers ! ) so I play them as a 3 mana enlightened tutor (and that sucks) vs ultra grindy match up grove combo nicely with starfield but otherwise I wonder about its utility, might decrease the numbers.
It could be a very good sideboard card against decks that board in removal? (wear and tear, for example)Quote:
Originally Posted by Plm
@Doomwake: Never liked that guy as said from the beginning, in Ench it's another thing because you can activate costellation 2-3 times in a single turn, here no. Plus my list (and as far i see now even other lists with Leap) is almost removal-proof.
@Lock and 1x: As said by square_two, personal tastes and testing: i've made an 1-1 preboard, 2-2 post board match against one of the best italian player with Miracle, and Dovescape is our only way to establish something he can't deal with. You have to assume that, since the long of that match, he would have council and snap-council ready, so Cruel/wurm do very little before dying.
@Plm&Sterling grove: true, but i'm not disliking them too much. You can probably go down to 2, but then it's worse post-side... dunno.
I just realized that with Dovescape in the deck, there are some cool opportunities for an immediate shut-out:Quote:
Originally Posted by Memories of the Time
1) 2 Rectors in hand? Grab Dovescape if you can tutor with the first one. Now your second is counter/swords proof and you can use it to grab Sandwurm/Curse for a nice lock
2) Rector + Evo Leap available? Leap the Rector and grab Dovescape. You get a replacement creature to play out and leap - voila - in 1-2 turns you can get Sandwurm/Curse. It's not like you are going to die in one turn from a sudden swarm of birds
@ lock : as new heavy enchants are soft locks + big clock, there's less utility in hard lock combo, indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Plm
@sterling grove : it was wonderful with enchant-creatures. But as leap build decrease them, it's less usefull than it was. Still a must with starfield.
So yes, we probably go less or put in enlightened tutor (leyline of the void/helm in side? 0:) )
So I've been thinking a bit more about the Collective Brutality discussion from the other day, and I think I'm coming around on it a little. Not as a MB card, but as a SB card. Being so versatile it's an easy card to slip in whenever you want a little more of anything.
Speaking of a little bit of everything - what are your thoughts on Vizier of the Menagerie + Worldly Tutor?
That'd effectively allow you to "GSZ" for Ranger of Eos/Confidant. Slip a Shriekmaw into the list and you can GSZ for Terror.
Hmm the problem is you have to play Worldy Tutor in your fair deck, which is inherent card disadvantage (with Vizier's "synergy" it comes out just even). I feel GSZ is too superior for us even to consider Worldly, surely they are a bunch of tech non-green creatures but 2x1ing yourself is not where you want to be IMO..
Re: This entire post: The alt modes of discard vs removal seems really tantalizing and I also see the "card filtering" of Brutality but you make some convincing arguments and thank you for suggesting some good reading material.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
The more I think about it, the more I like channeler initiate. Also with him and Croc, maybe a return to wickerbough elder? He can really do some damage with an initiate.