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My test list would look like"
4 gamble
2 PIF
2 RTS
1 Mizz
2 Helm
3 Ruby
4 LED
4 Petal
4 ROF
4 Seeth
4 probe
4 manamorp
1 tendrils
4 wish
4 AOI
4 Fetch
6 MTN
3 Tomb
SB
1 tendrils
1 empty
1 mizz
1 PIF
1 RTS
1 abrade
1 Mizzium mortars
2 Pyro
3 Defense Grid
probably 2 blood moons
1 Cave-In
Gonna proxy test this with loots as gambles and goldfish it. If I like it I'll pick up the gambles and try it out at my weeklies.
I've played 2 gambles in the deck past. It's fine but not always what I want.
I should also actually just try dropping the maindeck Reforge and replace with PIF.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
that may be the better play, but USUALLY need a burning wish to win the game at some point. Reforge gets there.
I DO think that the specific grouping of cards matter pretty hard for the deck. It allows different lines. Faithless Looting becomes worse when you take out past in flames and mizzix's mastery.
Reforge is worse without the LED's etc. Changes the whole storm flow chart.
Gamble could be good with heavy Past in Flames and Mizzix's how Faithless is. Or maybe -2 RTS +2 PIF -1 mizz +1 gamble
Lots of goldfishing for lines is good. Can't play weeklies EVERYDAY.
I'm not sure how you get away with only 14 initial red mana sources. I've goldfished this deck probably more than anyone and I don't think it's correct.
Did you test Serum Powder to increase the likelihood of having a Medallion in your opening hand? It gives away what you're playing, but on the other hand it increases consistency.
i haven't tested it, but the deck doesn't really need ruby to win. however, you will be significantly favored in the games where you resolve a ruby.
serum is quite clunky otherwise, maybe in a version with 4 helm of awakening. what do you propose the cut is?
10x Mountain + 4x Petal? That's what I'm doing as well. I cut the SSG's completely when I moved over to Shreds of Sanity so I would have more instants to fetch out (another reason for Bolt.) It has worked fine for me, and ironically enough, in the past 4-5 test games I've drawn 3+ lands in my opener.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
I am loving Lightning Bolt, to the point that I think Overmaster might need to go away completely to make room for the full set of Bolts. Right now I am 2/2/2 on Bolt/Overmaster/Empty in the maindeck and there are tons of ways to leverage a longer game that way. Killing Deathrite Shamans has been great, and a storm chain of 10 becomes lethal many times with a Bolt in the mix because I can go off leaner and kill with Grapeshot even without a Medallion. With a medallion it becomes a lot easier to go for Tendrils or EtW/War Strike.
My testing recently has me making these observations of the test cards:
-Shreds makes mana rock 5+ really unnecessary, because its a leaner Past in Flames option that can boost mana/storm. Shreds has added on average a 3 storm count and typically ended up with the same mana I started with, so even on mana (sans Medallion.) With Medallion it becomes incredible, and adds 3 storm on average and +2 mana on average. I am completely sold on this as maindeck PiF #4. I haven't tried Mizzix Mastery...but I haven't needed to, Shreds is very good. I also think this completely obfusticates the need for Gamble, which was a fairly low impact card even when it did what I wanted. Some games Gamble is amazing, but most games I didn't draw it at all. Shreds is better as a redundant storm enabler than Gamble, in my humble opinion.
-Lightning Bolt makes Grapeshot kills a lot easier, which makes games without Medallion much smoother. When you can use 1-2 extra mana (not enough to achieve a tendrils kill) to deal 3-6 extra damage that can usually win the game. The removal is very good. I am on the verge of going for the full set, just for early interaction against fair decks and on a slow start. Without the cantrip cartel to smooth the deck out it is really reliant on raw draw power with AoI, Probe, Manamorphose, HuF, and Reforge. Its not a matter of if we will go off, but whether we have enough time to go off. Bolt buys us time and actually speeds up the kill potential by maybe a half-turn. This is pretty big considering I don't have access to LED.
-Guttersnipe does the same as bolt out of the board. It actually speeds the deck up, but at the risk of removal. In my metagame there is a glut of fair decks, many of them blue with plenty of removal like Grixis Delver/Czech pile or Punishing Maverick. Post-board Guttersnipe has been really good at simply pressuring from a different axis. If they don't have an answer to Snipe the longer game gets better because chains of rituals don't need to go anywhere on their own, they are pinging off 2 life every time a short chain happens. Really sold on Guttersnipe out of the board.
-Blood Moon, as much as I love it, just doesn't warrant enough slots. I have enough decks in the metagame Moon-ing people themselves that it is a dead slot. Those slots are going to Snipe. I also forgot that I had a By Force in the board, which I neglected to include in my list further up.
-I had used Helm of Awakening for a long time, without any real effect of enabling opponent's too much. Something had to give for Bolts and I am positive this is a better option, at least I'm convinced for now.
Those are my thoughts right now. Really like Lightning Bolt, it's a little counterintuitive because its not a traditional storm inclusion, but man I should have seen it before. Thanks to mistercakes for selling me on Guttersnipe and Bolts.
the guttersnipe is all vieko. (as is LED and probe). damn him.
the bolt is cabaltherapy, vieko and myself.
I've left Magic for some months due to university, but i'm still following this thread.
I've seen much hate against gamble, but often forgetting one of its best side: the awesome flexibility for reach SB pieces, such as 1x Blood Moon and so on. In my tests, last summer, it has ben incredible, also to increase the possibility of a t2 rock.
gamble has been in my maybeboard for quite some time. it's a great card, but haven't felt like using it in a while.
I actually had an idea of a list with 2 MD Grapeshot, 4 Bolt and 3-4 Firebrand Archer. I think this version would play much closer to a traditional storm deck (storm to ~10 and kill you) and Archer seemed a bit interesting to me due to mana constraints.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Yes, i know, i've read all the pages of this thread. I was saying that, imho, we forget about this two things about gamble too often, just that =)Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
Archer is a little weak...the old Modern/Extended tech was Pyromancer's Swath. I don't think you need it, Guttersnipe is a better threat and 3 mana isn't difficult to achieve over 2. I could see Young Pyromancer as a 2-drop in a Grapeshot-focused deck, but I don't think that's very good either (just too fragile compared to Warrens.) The bolts allow leaner-mana situations to allow Grapeshot to be lethal, which means we don't have to lean on Medallion as much. I love this because it means I don't have to play Helm of Awakening. I don't hesitate to make a small Grapeshot chain to act as a Wrath of God and buy time either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manroe
Thank you for considering my suggestion, but after some days of extensive goldfishing I came to the conclusion that Serum isn't quite warranted. The more practice I have with the deck, the less I see the need for a guaranteed Ruby in the opening hand. :eyebrow:Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
Based on the list in the opening post, there's not enough room for Serum either. The only cards I'd cut after goldfishing are Commune with Lava which (at least from my experience as of yet) shouldn't be replaced with anything but draw spells.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimst3r
i like commune, but it could probably be a 1 or or even dropped. i'm going to continue testing it until i can at least get some matches in with it.
the slots that are flexible seem to be the 16th land (although you can probably get away with 14 if you're lucky) . some people play 13 here, but over the course of a long tournament, it will catch up with you. the bolts as well, and the guttersnipes.
if you do run the playsets of snipes and bolts, you're likely to make it to an end game (bolts keep honest decks slow, although they can be brutally bad vs some decks.)
i like the 16th land right now, although i am considering cutting 1 commune for a 3rd bolt or a 3rd pif, probably a bolt. it could also be a gamble as mentioned.
Regarding lands: I tried 15 lands and I got flooded way too much, even over 50+ games. I cut to 14 and I am happy with that number. I would never play 16 unless it were for utility lands that perform like a spells.
I preface this with the knowledge that I need way more reps with this deck, however love reading the thread. What are your thoughts on this:
2 city of traitors
12 mountain
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lions eye diamond
4 lotus petal
4 rite of flame
4 manamorphose
4 seething song
4 gitaxian probe
4 act on impulse
4 burning wish
3 guttersnipe
2 past in flames
1 shreds of sanity
4 lightning bolt//3 and 1 abrade
Sb:
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 grapeshot
1 past in flames
1 cave-in
1 reforge the soul
1 by force/shattering spree
3 scab clan berserker
2 defense grid
2 silent gravestone
1 abrade or potentially hull breach.
This is what I think I'd like to test after reading this far.
If leds can't be found im thinking 15th land and 3 desperate rituals.
I'd say keep our eyes peeled for this year's group of products. Dominaria will likely be promising and between all the cool new products and the core set returns, we could very well wind up with an additional act on impulse or something else.
Side note, say we did get a functional reprint....what would we even cut?
Honestly, I've had better luck without LEDs if I run snipes main. I originally built this to be budget and I got the LEDs for something else. Really fell in love with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knighthawk
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
List looks worth testing. Play the singleton Abrade if you're in a heavy dnt/drs/Stompy meta. Otherwise play a 4th bolt or a 2nd shreds (it gets better with bolts too.
If we get a functional reprint of AoI this deck becomes very scary. I don't know if it will ever happen, but would also be happy with a 1R 2 card AoI. Anyway. Let's see what happens, as mentioned earlier in the thread: the deck will only get better over time. The other storm decks are already pretty optimal, so the work in progress is a great reason to keep this deck sleeved up.
With a duplicate AoI, i'd trim some g.probes, and from the above list, some bolts. There should be two gy effect cards, mizzix or pif, so that Shreds is looking to be replaced by AoI clone too. And if Commune is in the deck, that''s a candidate as well.
Not touching any ramp spell(morph inc.), not touching artifacts, nor burning wish, what's left? Snipes for sure, but i'm a huge fan of those.
My land count is probably the thing i worked most on.
I found 13 to be the exact amount of lands I wanted.
Fetch lands help reduce whiff capabilities off the AOIs and RTS. Even flopping 1 land hurts the consistency.
At first I ran 4 Tombs, but found I needed Red WAY more than that.
Dropped 1 tomb and upped my mountains. Found it fantastic.
Faithless looting helps fix land drops as well as puts rite of flames and PIF/Mizzix targets in yard.
Gamble would do the same.
My numbers with Helm/Ruby as well. Having 2 helm really helps with defense grids and dropping Tendrils of Agony numbers. At first I was 4 ruby/2 helm. Then found 5 to be a good number and adjusted from there.
Helm FINALLY bit me in the ass vs a miracles player when he predicted a TON and just out carded me. I still won that match though FWIW. Game 3 we both got flooded and the fetches helped a LOT IMO. At a point I new the 3 lands left in my deck and odds of drawing certain things etc and went off from there.
Just SOLD off my LEDS along with some other stuff, so I am 100% moving out of the deck into something I feel is better suited for GP's etc. Selling manamorphose, so possibly can come back to it later without the LEDS for local stuff, but probably not good enough to warrant it at that point for me.
Final thoughts- I like 2 PIF main 1 sb i think. 1 mizzix mastery mained 1 sb. seriously try this card out. its a snapcaster for freebies and often wins on the spot when overloaded. Allows for tendrils off red mana only and adds extra storm count. They also chain together. Mizz-mizz-tendrils etc.
I think Gamble and Faithless in some qtys help consistency.
Fetch land math only applies to a game where you draw 4 cards, not 40.
thanks. my main concern is always finding an initial red mana source. if you're consistent enough to get that with 10 that's great. i haven't been able to have that same consistency with 10. (i don't count petals as in most real-matches it's a risky keep).
too bad to see you sell off! LED is one of my favorite cards, but money is money! best of luck.
I don't think the deck is dead without LED's...it's different, but not dead. A little slower, about 1/2 a turn, but that leaves open slots for interaction that you can't cut anywhere else for (Bolts, Overmaster) or adding more threats (Guttersnipe, maindeck Warrens) or just slamming more Shreds of Sanity/Hazoret's Undying Fury.
i agree, but im selling off lotsQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
There was some discussion of a Dragonstorm variant in this thread last year. Apparently, some Japanese players have done well with it.
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD00006SOT/
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD00656TA/
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD00135N/
I don't think it's so different from this deck as to require a different thread, and it might have merit as a LED-less variant.
The third list being closest to the deck discussed here. Maybe better than the non LED list.
Can't understand why you should play 6 dragons, 2 dragonstorm, 3 empty the warrens and 4 burning wish.
I like a dragonstorm way, but i think that the point should be to have like 4 wish 3 dragonstorm+1 on sb and the minimum number of dragons?
of the 3, this is prob the best one:
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD00006SOT/
Dragonstorm is so spicy! However, there is a minimum of 9-12 cards that need to be dedicated to make it work (6-8 dragons, 3-4 Dragonstorms.) There is a Rb dragonstorm thread here, i'll try and find it.
Dragonstorm makes a lot of sense to me.
Saw the post on reddit and prompted me to come in here. I'll probably pick that stuff up with store credit.
Mizzix's mastery + faithless looting is real good! :P
We had another article highlighting the deck yesterday. Anyone from the Source?
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/carlos...ng-up-a-storm/
i know ahg113 posts on here, so maybe he knows the author.
Guttersnipe doesn't hit creatures, so he missed that. Makes me think that Burning Vengeance is something that could be valuable if we are looking for that effect.Quote:
Guttersnipe one of your few cards that are vulnerable to commonly played removal spells, but gives you the potential of controlling the board or just killing your opponent outright, particularly in multiples.
He gets this right.Quote:
The strength of this deck is that the draw spells mean that you can go off from a relatively small base even after your opponent has the opportunity to utilize their own disruptive elements.
I haven't the foggiest. I haven't sleeved that up in paper yet (waiting on Commune with Lava in the mail), so it must be against someone I've played against on cockatrice.
The credit really does belong to mistercakes, my handle is misguidingly associated.
A pleasant surprise.
For the heck of it, Snipe is a body, so it's possible to control the board in ways of not removal, but just a deterrent from them attacking you, you attacking them, or blah blah blah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
been doing some goldfishing with 12 mtn, 2 tomb, 3 commune, 2 snipe, 0 bolt, 3 pif. (rest is 4's)
it's been pretty good, but i'm pretty sure the deck will still want another land. if that's the case then the 3rd commune drops down to 2. each time it's super risky just to get a 2nd land, which this deck needs to be consistent.
I don't think Guttersnipe would ever deter someone from attacking you. If you block, you lose a win condition. If you don't block, they pressure your life total. If that's what he meant by 'controlling the board' then I have very little faith in his evaluation of Magic interplay. I think it's more likely he was under the impression that Guttersnipe also has the ability to hit creatures. I play this deck and Junk/Deadguy Ale both quite a bit. As a mid-range fair deck player I wouldn't hesitate to attack into Snipe, not even for a second, and my StP's and Abrupt Decays will kill that guy ASAP. It's a terrible argument for 'controlling the board'.Quote:
Originally Posted by ahg113
It did however really get me thinking about Burning Vengeance, which is a combo kill with Past in Flames. It's another way for Grapeshot to be lethal if mana is an issue (like not having a Ruby Medallion.) The fact that it's an enchantment is also very relevant. I might do 3x Vengeance maindeck and then swap it out with Guttersnipe post-board when grave hate comes in and creature removal goes out.
I'm also looking into what it would take to get Dragonstorm into the mix. It's janky as hell, but sweet jesus it would be fun.
Vengeance is pretty bad here. Feel free to try it but it's totally dependent on past in flames and if for some reason they are playing grafdiggers, it does nothing. Also you don't need to squeeze dragonstorm into the deck, it's a good deck on its own.
Vieko showed me these dragonstorm decks about a year ago, which is what inspired me to do Ruby Storm in the first place.
Guttersnipe controls the board in the aspect that the game becomes centered around him once he hits the table.
That makes sense, it becomes a Guttersnipe sub-game. Vengeance would only be a maindeck card, boarded out for Guttersnipe out of the side. I think I've mentioned before that I actually board out copies of PiF post-board for relevant interaction against grave hate. Vengeance would have to follow suit.
Dragonstorm would be for pure funsies, honestly. I know the version I am already using is pretty decent. At the local it could be HILARIOUS though.
yea i think the dragonstorm deck is worth sleeving up. it's definitely the best way to abuse mizzix's mastery. the dragon backup plan is honestly fine too, which is a bit odd for 2018 legacy.