More reasons to run CB against Goblins. This needs more testing.
3rd Enforcer is going in.
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More reasons to run CB against Goblins. This needs more testing.
3rd Enforcer is going in.
I haven't done enough testing with CB/Top vs. Goblins to make a definitive statement, but when I have tested it, it's been awful for me. Their CCs are all over the place, you rarely get a blind counter with CB, Top manipulation is mana intensive and the whole package is overall too slow to make much of a dent or reliably counter the effects that are most threatening to Thresh.
When I've maindeck CB/Top, I always yank it for games 2 and 3 for BEBs and Chills.
Does anyone who has a lot of experience against good Goblins builds keep it in?
I never used to keep it in, but now with twelve 1 casting cost slots (fanatic, lackey, and vial) and eight 2 casting cost slots (piledriver and warren weirding), it might be worth it. You probably still have to contend with 4 wastelands and 4 ports though, so it likely remains too mana intensive to be worth it post-board. At least now counterbalance is a little more valuable in this match-up pre-board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
No, definitley not, I won't play CB against Goblins because of 1 single card. Even of they would play Swords to plowshares again, I wouldn't. It's also not guaranteed that we have a CC2 Spell on top when the edict comes. And the dangerous Goblins like Warchief, Matron and Ringleader will still resolve, the odds of having Enforcer on the Top is quite little. And even those Goblins are enough to make Incinerator good against Goyf. And Incinerator is better than that Edict.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
I find it easy to see that the new Edict is far better than Incinerator against our deck, thus worsening the matchup (pre-board). How many times have you seen an Incinerator kill Goyf ? And, more important, how many times have you seen it BEFORE turn four or five ?
Edict does about the same thing as Incinerator, only three to four turns earlier. This means it can clear a Goyf out of the way for a Lackey or very big Piledriver. It's a bit like Smother in the Goblins build, with the difference being that it can be found with Ringleader and Matron, recurred with Wort and made cheaper with Warchief, meaning that it will show up in your opponent's hand far more often than Smother would. It CAN be countered (but not Stifled), but then the counters are already very busy against Goblins, and like stated above, there's likely to show up another one very soon.
So, I'd think Meddling Mage it is.
Matron can grab threats, Warcheif sucks by without Piledriver, Ringleader hits blanks most of the time with CB present meaning it's a crappier version of Matron.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Besides, I'll be honest now, I dont care if Ringleader resolves when I have Counterbalance. I'm more than happy to hit the cards that came from Ringleader than struggle to find some stupid Enforcer to put on top. Only the resolution of SCG and Piledrivers I'm worried about.
I've been looking at Death and Taxes recently, and I had a really amazing thought. Instead of Armaggedon in the board for landstill, why not Cataclysm as an all around land sweep/ goblin hate/ more versatile board card? Just keep Counterbalance, SDT, 'Goyf/ Mongoose/ (maybe Enforcer?), Tropical/ island, and proceede to beat face, almost exactly like you would in the early game, but with board advantage (CounterTop), the perfect opening land (Tropical/ Island), and a creature alrealy on the board. Whatever you keep you're bound to have Threshold anyway (unless you're looking at Leyline/ Planar Void, in whicy case if you havn't answered it by turn 4 you've prolly have already lost).
That is all.
Why Cataclysm isn't such a good idea:Quote:
Originally Posted by raharu
- Cataclysm costs double white (sucks against Goblins)
- Cataclysm leaves your opponent a better chance for recovery like "Swords your guy, land, Standstill" against Landstill
- You want to have more than one creature on the board when Armageddon resolves (to finish the game quickly as you have close to no chance of recovering from the loss of so many lands)
Also you don't need the versatility on the expense of more power, just focus on making those few bad matchups (board control) better post board and you should beat almost everything in this damn format (take Ichorid as an auto-loss if you ever face it).
Then why run Armaggedon against Landstill. The play in response you listed is highly situational at any rate, and if you really think that's going to happen, then yet again I ask, why run Armaggedon (or just wait for FoW/ Daze backup before you reset the board and win)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
About Cataclysm sucking against goblins... Rework the manabase. They're starting to drop wastes and ports anyways, so it shouldn't be so hard to get WW anymore. It's better and less narrow than Trividar's crusade, at any rate. Overall, this is just starting to look like a better and better idea as the logic progresses, at least as a board card. It's better than the predominant answer in white for Goblins, better than the predominant answer for Landstill, so on and so forth. I think I'll throw together a hypothetical list for "board control" /w threshold (you guys need to find a better name for this deck, ASAP) and post it in a little bit.
Cata-'Grogasm:
Board Control: 3
Cataclysm x3
Counter: 10
Daze x4
Counterbalance x2
Force of Will x4
Cantrips: 11
Sensei’s Divining Top x3
Brainstorm x4
Ponder x4
Removal: 4
Swords to Plowshares x4
Creatures: 10
Nimble Mongoose x4
Tarmogoyf x4
Mystic Enforcer x2
2 free slots (Meddling Mage?)
Lands: 20
Flagstones of Tokair x2
Tropical Island x4
Tundra x4
Flooded Strand x4
Polluted Delta x3
Plains x1
Island x2
Forest x1
The Sugestion of Meddling Mage in a small number seems like a situational, yet decent enough idea, at least for the moment. Pithing Needle on Deed and Mage on StP, and them proceede to beat face with a riotously well protected Meddling Mage after Cataclysm (keeping Dual land, Counterbalance, Meddling Mage, Pithing Needle, with SDT on top of the deck). Maybe... It needs to be replaced (Jotun Grunt?), but as it stands it shouldn't be to bad. At least in the abstract.
Now I'm just a dirty goblins player trolling your boards for insight, but if you boarded in Cataclysm vs. me, I would be thrilled. A resolved Aether Vial (and this does happen) makes this a dead card. I have been testing Warren Weirding, (picked them up at the pre-release yesterday) since the spoil, and the likely hood of taking the turn, dropping a land and weirding your goyf is high. Post board, black goblins will raw dog your hand with Cabal Therapy. Don't expect a cushy hand full of permission. Sure you can protect it with b'storm, but we are sneaking in lacky and vial that same turn, and just as soon have you draw into fow and daze.Quote:
Originally Posted by raharu
Cataclysm, seems like a curious answer to a board position/game state that doesn't (or rarely) exist(s).
Edit: Also, who cuts wastes? Ports? sure. Wastes? never. Edit 2: Also, I board extripate. ever get to WW after your tundra has been hit with that? Waste your tundra, 'pate your tundra, that's an un-counterable, and otherwise stomp-ass play.
Yeah, Wasteland on a white source -> Extirpate on that land is pretty bad, but the absolute worst case scenario is always going to be. If you fear Wasteland and Extirpate that bad, keep CB and put SDT on top of your deck. Simple. Also, with 3 different types of white sources, two of which are fairly Wasteland proof (basic plains and Flagstones of Tokair), I'm not too worried about getting cut off from white, or even WW. Also, a minor revision in the manabase (that last one was pretty much slaped together for demonstration's sake):
-1 Polluted Delta
-1 Tundra
+1 Flagstones of Tokair
+1 Plains
I think that solidifies the manabase a little bit more.
I'm getting convinced more and more that 4 Spell Snares are great in the main, and ran them in the last tourney I played in. They counter Piledriver, the new edict, Chalice for 1, and Jitte. And thats just against goblins. There is a legitimate 2 drop threat in almost every deck.
If I could see your list, I think it would be easier to evaluate if there should be 4 MD or not. You could be running a 2/2 CSpell/ Snare split, or 3 Snares and another CB. Your argument about Snare hitting Goblins fairly hard is quite solid, though.
My Current List:
// Lands
3 [R] Tundra
1 [TE] Forest (3)
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [OD] Island (1)
1 [9E] Plains (2)
// Creatures
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [NE] Daze
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
I haven't decided whether I like Enforcers or two Sea Drakes instead yet. They both offer pros and cons.
With Drake:
Pros
-It comes out a turn faster/costs less mana. Also only a blue instead of two off colors when facing Moon effects.
-Doesn't rely on Threshold to fly over stuff.
-ups the 3cc number to 3, so you can have a somewhat better chance at actaully countering Deed, Vindicate, Witness etc.
Cons
-Dies to Bolt and Smother, as well as other black targeted removal and burn
-Somewhat that it returns two lands, most of the time doesn't matter
-Enforcer is much larger when Threshed
But as of right now I have playing Enforcers. But's thats only because I don't own Sea Drakes so I don't have much of a choice. Let me know what you think. Be advised that this list is run in Mass where Stax and Dragon Stompy are somewhat popular, but we get a pretty good mix of the best decks
Guys, I need some opinions on this list...
// Lands 18
4 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
4 Tundra
// Creatures 11
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Jotun Grunt
// Spells 31
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Portent
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Engineered Explosives
// Sideboard 15
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Seal of Primordium
3 Krosan Grip
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental blast
2 Armageddon
2 Threads of Disloyalty
Random Seal and EE is to serve as the 2 MD bounce spells. Swords is awesome, but the main reason I'm running White is for Jotun Grunt. Outclasses Goyfs and allows me to play Tempo sooner so I dont have to wait for Geese to Thresh.
SB is questionable. But give me advice what works with this SB.
It's the canadian tempobuild in white, Birdshitstyle. I think I'd try -3 Grunts and - 1 Portent for +4 Meddling Mages since you don't play Counterbalance in your 75 and I somehow got the feeling that it has to be replaced by something. On the other side, Jotun Grunt has got some synergies with the manadenial plan and can sometimes smash mirrormatches preboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
But Meddling Mage could also do so... dunno.
You might noticed that I'm still for a separation of concepts concering the colorsplash, I would not try anything that a other splash can already do better, except if you need some serious (I mean VERY SERIOUS) sideboardoptions against some matchups you are really (REALLY REALLY) afraid of.
I would keep UGR tempoish and UGW controlish (so, the build we all play(ed) with 3 Needles, Enforcers, 3/3 CBalance Engine and so on.
Yea... it's Canadian....
As for MM, I've tested them. I found them rather hard to cast early because of Wastelands. I might consider them again though.
Yes you do become more vulnerable to wasteland however goblins already beats threshold well most of the time! If goblins is so worried about your black source then the less concerned about your green source so....Tarmogyf, nimble mongoose! i however did fix my list to be more consistent, i did agree with you on that. And i was not comparing ghastly demise to stp i think of it as a 5th stp, mostly for the opposing Tarmogoyf or Goblin Piledriver, Nantuko Monastary. I will post my new list eventually. However i am still questioning counterbalance top in the main deck, it just seems to dead, but in the mirror extremely powerful.Quote:
Originally Posted by nastynate
Well, I finally put my hands on a Tarmogoyf set so now I'm ready to play Thres (the controllish one) and I wonder what your thoughts are about some topics:
- How important is Predict to the deck? I've seen some people removing it for more control/counters with certain success, including TriaByFire and others, what are the pros and cons? I certainly provides CA but I sometimes find it needs too much setup, often sitting in my hand several turns until I can use it. I see the standard list including a whole set, is this really necessary?
- 17/18 lands? Just a personal preference? When building my list I found that one slot in this deck can be really important.
- Assuming the Goblins matchup is not the best one, what are your SB strategies against them? By reading this thread I understand the most popular choices are BEBs and Krosan Grip for their Vials. I've seen Tivadar's Crusade been mentioned, what do you guys think about Hail Storm? I admit I haven't playtested that card so I just wonder.
- How useful are those single copies such as EE? Are they only filler for the list?
I would really appreciate to see some questions answered. I know some of this topics have been discussed in one way or another in the thread. Excuse me if some of the questions seem stupid or already well-answered in the thread. Thanks in advance.
Since this build is very permanent heavy, I find it extremely useful. Typically you are going to be playing 5 - 6 creatures that rely on having Threshold. Onto of this, the filtering and card advantage you gain is great. Start with 3 MB and go from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by godryk
I play 17, typically running 7 fetches, 2 basics (Island + forest), and playset of each duel. As for the configuration, it is really dependent on your meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by godryk
BEB, stifle and needle are the way to goQuote:
Originally Posted by godryk
I really like EE and if you can squeeze 1 MB I'd say go for it. It is one of those cards that seems to be equivalent to a swiss army knife. Even when you think it is completely dead, sac it for zero and increase the size of your Goyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by godryk
I play 18 lands with 8 fetches, 4 basics because there is so many Moon effects, and decks trying to waste-lock you
Well, as everyone has recorgnized, this Type of Thresh is very permanentheavy. So, in order to balance it, you need a card that fuels your graveyard so you can be more aggressive. But Mental Note neither generates CQ nor CA. The synergies between Mental note and predict are similar, but Predict generates CA. So the choice is clear to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by godryk
I play 17 Lands, 8 Duals, 8 Blue Fetchies, 1 Island. But only because it has got a lot of permanents. Sometimes I also do -1 fetch, +1 Island. 17 Lands are fine because you have a huge CQ.Quote:
- 17/18 lands? Just a personal preference? When building my list I found that one slot in this deck can be really important.
Hail Storm = Tivadar's Crusade proxy. But playing tight and increasing the spotremoval (BEB/Hydroblasts) are the best way to go along with Needles to shut off...everything? (Wasteland, Port, Vial, Incinerator). But I'm thinking about going back to Worship.Quote:
- Assuming the Goblins matchup is not the best one, what are your SB strategies against them? By reading this thread I understand the most popular choices are BEBs and Krosan Grip for their Vials. I've seen Tivadar's Crusade been mentioned, what do you guys think about Hail Storm? I admit I haven't playtested that card so I just wonder.
Now this phenomenon is called "silverbullet". It's a card that you ACTUALLY don't need, but is always good when you draw it. And if you really need it, you can also dig for it via cantrips. Damn, I should try EE, too...Quote:
- How useful are those single copies such as EE? Are they only filler for the list?
Prolly not the best idea, because with Goblins getting Edict from Mornintide they have a chance of actually breaking that lock, although you prolly just save your countermagic for that one spell, so it prolly won't be that big of a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
This actually won be a match the other week because I was playing a Loam/Confinement deck, and he got Confinement out on me the turn before I was going to win. He had no cards in hand, but recurring Squee to pay for Confinement. I turned that game from a loss (he would have decked me eventually) to a win by finally drawing my one EE about 9 turns later and blowing up Confinement FTW. As long as you can set EE to at least 3, it is a very good catch-all should you need itQuote:
Originally Posted by Adan
What are your experiences playing against Dragon Stompy? Preboard you better hope you have a FoW in your initial seven. Seriously, what are you thoughts on the MU? Seems to me that if your meta is getting infested with this monstrosity that you better be playing 3 - 4 basic lands. Onto of that BEB and Grip seem pretty tight, but sometimes (lot of times) those spells can't compete with the large amount of lock pieces this deck has on Ugw CB. What about a board sweeper? After all Dragon Stompy is looking to drop their entire hand ASAP. After that, its top deck time for them. What sort of sweepers could Thresh play? The only one that comes to mind is Nevinyrral's Disk, where it doesn't matter if they have moon effects or other artifact lock pieces in play. Bonus being that their creatures get wiped too.
Or you can side in 3 EE and 4-5 BEB with an awesome mana base to help you out. Do what the Hatfields did;Quote:
Originally Posted by kabal
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
3 Island/2 Island 1 Tundra
This can really help you get around Blood Moon effects so that you can concentrate on dismantling Chalice and 3Spheres.
I played against dragon stompy in top four last night at a legacy tourny. I knew it was going to be there so I main decked 2 island 1 forest. Post board pulled counterbalance/top for serenity/beb. I lost game one due to a t1 chalice @ 1. Post board wasnt a big deal got my basics and beb's opening hand and fow back up. Dragon stompy is an awful match up period, only thing to make it better is some basics to fetch for and fow the early blood moon/magus, and get beb's post board.Quote:
Originally Posted by kabal
Dragon Stompy isn't necessarily an awful match-up. I've been main-decking 4 islands, 8 fetch-lands (delta's and strands), 3 hydroblast, and 3 engineered explosives, which makes game 1 much less of an auto loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Braves
Post-board I write the white splash off against dragon stompy, boarding out my mystic enforcers and StP in favor of 4 blue elemental blast, 1 hydroblast, and 1 engineered explosives. I also usually board my 3 counterbalance and a single top out (leaving 2 in) for 4 krosan grip. So post-board I have 8 blasts, 4 islands, 4 engineered explosives, and 4 krosan grips.
With this particular main-deck / side-board configuration I've had little trouble taking 2 out of 3 games against dragon stompy.
Obviously I've lost a couple of staples. I no longer have pithing needle or spell snare (I used to run 3 of each in the main), but I don't feel like I've really lost anything that essential. In fact I think hydroblast and EE (though still conditional) have been more useful in the main deck than the conditional cards I removed for them.
The 3 main-deck hydroblasts are rarely dead (good against dragon stompy, goblins, goyf sligh, burn, belcher, TES, and UGr Threshold), and worst-case-scenario pitch to force of will.
The 3 main-deck engineered explosives can take out chalice of the void, counterbalance, opposing mongeese, goblin tokens, zombie tokens, and more, and at the very least they pop to make my goyfs bigger.
Simple question, you said you cut the Needles and the Snares. Have you never been running predict ?Quote:
Originally Posted by nastynate
What does your full list look like? Goblins arent really in my meta. Only one or two guys play them and only like once every month or two. Dragon Stompy is played, as well as belcher and other storm combo decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by nastynate
I never ran predict, though I understand why other people have and do. I have 11 cantrips (including tops) and counterbalance for card advantage, so I never felt like predict was needed. I have run good old counterspells before though.Quote:
Simple question, you said you cut the Needles and the Snares. Have you never been running predict ?
I'm currently running the list posted below, and from the sounds of it, my build should do pretty well in your metagame.Quote:
What does your full list look like? Goblins arent really in my meta. Only one or two guys play them and only like once every month or two. Dragon Stompy is played, as well as belcher and other storm combo decks.
Threats
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Werebear (I like these for the extra mana and for counterbalance purposes, but mongeese are fine too)
2 Mystic Enforcer
Disruption
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Hydroblast
Utility
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
Side-Board
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Krosan Grip
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Hydroblast
1 Academy Ruins
Whoah, well, obvious questions has to be made so, what do you use Academy Ruins against? I understand EE and Crypt evil recursion seems sexy, but how useful is it? What do you side it againt? I can hear a voice inside me saying uncolored lands is not what this deck needs. However, recurring EE seems techy in the mirror.
General question: Can Werebear mana abilty help in dangerous matchups with Moons involved? Or just keep a good amount of basics and fetch carefully?
I usually side it in against ichorid so I can recur crypt and EE, and I sometimes board it in for the threshold mirror or similar decks with very low mana curves (where recurring EE can be devastating). There aren't too many other singletons that I'd want in the side-board to fill that last slot, though I have put a 4th counterbalance in there before.Quote:
Whoah, well, obvious questions has to be made so, what do you use Academy Ruins against? I understand EE and Crypt evil recursion seems sexy, but how useful is it? What do you side it againt? I can hear a voice inside me saying uncolored lands is not what this deck needs. However, recurring EE seems techy in the mirror.
A single uncolored land is not going to ruin my manabase. It would quite obviously replace a single island (I'll still have 3) and generally only comes in against decks without wastelands.
Werebear mana is very handy against decks packing wasteland and yes it does occasionally help against dragon stompy (trinisphere bogs us down and obviously producing G can be difficult against multiple moon effects; in both cases werebear is helpful). Werebear does still swing for 4 too, so it's not like it's ever truly dead.Quote:
General question: Can Werebear mana abilty help in dangerous matchups with Moons involved? Or just keep a good amount of basics and fetch carefully?
There are obviously pros to nimble mongoose as well, but werebear fits better within the counterbalance mana curve. I wouldn't fault someone for running nimble mongoose instead (I certainly have), but in this build I'd then have only 11 spells at 2 casting cost which makes counterbalance more difficult to utilize effectively.
Running Werebears makes the Deck slower as it is already, thus it's not really a good idea since Nimble Mongoose is still one of the most dangerous creatures of the format.
That Academy Ruins-recursion is slow as hell and just win-more, since you have to find that single Academy Ruins...well...somehow!
And Running 4 Island is OVERKILL, even if you run maindecked Hydroblasts, 2 Islands will do fine as well (7 Fetch, 8 Duals, 2 Islands!).
And well, it's just another metagame-hype that TRIES to beat the MoonThresh mirror. But MoonThresh itself is a meta-deck that won't appear that often I think. Except there will suddendly be a hype.
How does playing werebear over mongoose make the deck slower? It comes down 1 turn later, meaning it deals 1 less point of damage total, prior to gaining threshold. After gaining threshold it deals 1 more each time it attacks.Quote:
Running Werebears makes the Deck slower as it is already, thus it's not really a good idea since Nimble Mongoose is still one of the most dangerous creatures of the format.
I agree that nimble mongoose is excellent, but it's really the untargetability that makes it great. Being able to play it turn 1 instead of turn 2 is not it's biggest selling point, unless you are worried about blocking goblin lackey...but I run hydroblast which handles lackey just as well as a chump blocker.
You don't have to find it at all; it's just nice when you do. What other singleton side-board card are you more likely to see? Oh that's right...the odds will be exactly the same.Quote:
That Academy Ruins-recursion is slow as hell and just win-more, since you have to find that single Academy Ruins...well...somehow!
I'm fine with people playing something else in that slot, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking a single side-board card is going to swing a match-up drastically in any way. You could run a Threads of Disloyalty, a 4th Counterbalance, or any other card you like in that slot. Academy Ruins just happens to be something I like to have as a singleton since it owns ichorid if I draw it, and ichorid is a tough match-up.
I completely disagree. If I'm on the play against a turn 1 blood moon, I'd like to have the best chance possible to either top-deck a basic island or have one in my opening grip. Fetches do nothing if the moon effect resolves before you can play them.Quote:
And Running 4 Island is OVERKILL, even if you run maindecked Hydroblasts, 2 Islands will do fine as well (7 Fetch, 8 Duals, 2 Islands!).
This isn't built to beat Moon Thresh; it's built to beat Dragon Stompy and just so happens to have a strong game against Moon Thresh too. I don't feel like losing to "meta-decks" but if you want to write off the moon decks as irrelevant be my guest.Quote:
And well, it's just another metagame-hype that TRIES to beat the MoonThresh mirror. But MoonThresh itself is a meta-deck that won't appear that often I think. Except there will suddendly be a hype.
So there's no way I can convince you that your build is suboptimal, whatever.
It's stupid to maindeck suboptimal cards that usually find their place in the sideboard just because you are paranoid.
Is you are really afraid, play Repeal or Rushing River...or something similar, or maindeck Krosan grips, but blasts, no.
Werebears do less damage compared to Mongoose. Because he dies as easily as the Goyf. That's why Mongoose is far more dangerous than Werebear.
And if you are going to face a 1st turn Blood Moon, you better have Force of Will or Daze on the play. Playing more Islands is not a solutions since they will still got time to drop Gathan Riders or something else.
If you really want to beat Dragonstompy, cut the Counterbalance Engine and add some Critters and Mental Notes... -.-
A quick reminder - attack the ideas, not the person.
-PR
Of course you can convince me that my build is suboptimal, if you provide convincing arguments.Quote:
So there's no way I can convince you that your build is suboptimal, whatever.
Is hydroblast any more conditional than repeal, rushing river, or krosan grip? Is it any more conditional than spell snare, pithing needle, threads of disloyalty, or trygon predator? All have their uses to varying degrees, but each and everyone of them is potentially dead in certain match-ups. Krosan grip, repeal, and rushing river would be metagame calls, and so is hydroblast.Quote:
It's stupid to maindeck suboptimal cards that usually find their place in the sideboard just because you are paranoid. Is you are really afraid, play Repeal or Rushing River...or something similar, or maindeck Krosan grips, but blasts, no.
That's why I said nimble mongoose is perfectly viable; it's untargetability makes it easier to protect. Sometimes that means that nimble mongoose will be better, but other times it won't make a lick of difference.Quote:
Werebears do less damage compared to Mongoose. Because he dies as easily as the Goyf. That's why Mongoose is far more dangerous than Werebear.
Nimble mongoose costs 1 mana (which has less synergy with counter-top and it gets hosed by CotV), and it doesn't tap for green (which matters in a metagame with blood moons). If spot removal were of greater concern to me than blood moon and CotV @ 1, and I didn't run counterbalance, then I would quite obviously prefer mongeese. However, few decks run more than 4-6 spot removal spells. I also want as much bang for my buck with counterbalance (since it's my only card advantage engine), and I have a perfectly sufficient counter base to protect a werebear if I need to.
Daze won't help if you don't have an island to bounce for it, and you won't if you are on the play against a turn 1 moon. Meanwhile running hydroblast does help to remove blood moon after it resolves (assuming you have basic islands to drop) and it serves double duty as spot removal against gathan raiders or something else.Quote:
And if you are going to face a 1st turn Blood Moon, you better have Force of Will or Daze on the play. Playing more Islands is not a solutions since they will still got time to drop Gathan Riders or something else.
I'm not about to cut counterbalance when it's so dominant against the rest of the field. It gets boarded out against chalice aggro, just as hydroblast gets boarded out in match-ups were it is irrelevant (like ichorid, breakfast, and so forth).Quote:
If you really want to beat Dragonstompy, cut the Counterbalance Engine and add some Critters and Mental Notes... -.-
Seriously, are three metagame slots and a really stable mana base so terrible? Do you really think mental note and more men are going to make any difference against dragon stompy? Dragon stompy is good against UGw Threshold because of blood moon and chalice of the void @ 1; those are the threats that have to be dealt with in order to win. Playing different cards that are still hosed by their hate is not going to help.
This is what I'll test in a small tournament of about 18 peepz:
// Lands
3 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Tundra
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [P3] Island (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [P3] Forest (3)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [NE] Daze
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [LOR] Hoofprint of the Stag
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [LOR] Ponder
3 [OD] Predict
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [LOR] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
My meta is too keep the description as short as possible: RANDOM
I guess you can even expect Salvager Combo there...
But there is one archetype / type of deck, from what you know that it'll be there - Rock. Then some *****, Landstill, Deadguy, TES.
Comments?
Yes it is more condtional than ALL of those cards, it is DEAD vs 75% of the format, none of the other cards you listed are even near that. If youre really afraid of Dragon Stompy/TES/Whatever Hydroblast is there for, just play Force Spike, it screws over those decks often enough and isnt a dead card against more than half the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by nastynate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bovinious
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Obviously your metagame differs from mine, and dragon stompy isn't taking top 8 spots, or beating UGw Thresh like a red-headed stepchild where you play. In some metagames spellsnare is a house (I used to run it in the slots where I now run hydroblast), and in others pithing needle is pretty hot. In mine hydroblast is routinely golden.Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Force spike, counterspell, remand and similar counterspells are great cards, with universal applications against a wide field, but they aren't going to help as much against a narrower field with hate dedicated to destroying this deck.
Besides, I didn't post my list for you or for Adan. I posted it for the people asking for help in beating dragon stompy. I was asked to post it. I know it's a metagamed deck list, and that in certain metagames dragon stompy isn't a problem...if you don't have to worry about decks like those I listed above, then this list isn't for you, but that does not mean its suboptimal.
Are you guys seriously squabbling with me over a measly 3 metagame slots? I'm sorry if the list I posted doesn't sit well with you, but I can tell you with the utmost honesty that it works very well against dragon stompy, and hydroblast is certainly not costing me wins. If it is going to cost you wins in your metagame then don't play my deck list.
I'd happily play a decklist with mongeese (instead of werebears), a different mana-base configuration, and 3 predicts (or spell snares) in a metagame lacking dragon stompy or decks with a heavy red component, but I don't. I play hydroblast because it's good where I play, and because its excellent verses dragon stompy, not because I'm an idiot.
There are some plus sides in running Bears...
-It produces green mana. Important in certain MUs involving Blood Moon.
-It's better than Geese in the mirror.