Putrid Imp is better than Street Wraith because the chances of your opponent having Force of Will in his opening hand are about 40 percent, and It provides an out to GY hate. It also provides you with a must-counter spell.
Printable View
Putrid Imp is better than Street Wraith because the chances of your opponent having Force of Will in his opening hand are about 40 percent, and It provides an out to GY hate. It also provides you with a must-counter spell.
Any comments on this list:
Land
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Colisseum
Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
Draw
4 Breakthrough
3 Deep Analysis
1 Cephalid Sage
2 Careful Study/2 Street Wraith
Other
4 LED
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Echoing Truth
I don't know if all the numbers are optimal... And I don't know which to take, Careful Study, or the uncounterable black Street Wraith, I'm leaning towards Wraith, but I am afraid that the digging power of Careful Study is better to get my answers game 2 and 3. Echoing Truth in side is to remove multiple pieces of hate, or tokens (Goblin or Zombie)
How often do you find yourself casting Echoing Truth?
When you need to cast it (say, with a Leyline on the board, or a Yixlid Jailer) you are not dredging. So you will draw that second land and you are able to cast the spell. So yes, when you would need it, you can cast it. I just wanted a good answer against multiple permanents of the same type. We just have no good answer against 2 Leylines, 2 Yixlid, 2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain, and those do come up. Plus, they help against the mirror, and help against storm combo, the latter being a bad matchup.
@ Brehn
Obviously you are right in the Street Wraith vs Putrid Imp discussion. But why do you play 4 Putrid Imps? Why not more (as in Tireless Tribe)? Is 4 the optimal number? I don't assume that the non-removability for Ichorid will stop you from playing Tribe.
Non-removability for Ichorid, 1/5 wall instead of 2/2 flying beater, no more available slots. And, I'm happy with the amount of mulligans I have to take. For reference, my current mainboard is the same as smoky squirrel's (-1 Coliseum +1 Undiscovered Paradise for more consistant Gambles out of the board). In my testing I've discovered that the only slot that is debatable in a general meta is the third Analysis. Options are the 3rd Return, the 3rd Study or the 1st Tribe.
Tribe is good if you expect
1) multiple Crypts. Unfortunately, people have discovered that most Ichorid players don't care about Crypts that much, so more decks are splashing black for graveyard hate (see UWb Landstill), preferring black splashes to others (see UGb Threshold) or create new metadecks with black (see The Epic Control). Also, they're discovering that Extirpate is underrated in general.
2) red removal spells and/or some fat creatures that have to be blocked. See "Goyf Sligh".
3) Doran. Ok, disregard that.
So in any meta with black, Tribe is really just P.Imp number 5 for mulliganning purposes. And I'm happy enough with my mulligans right now. Remember, with every Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe you add to the deck, you're increasing its consistancy while slowing it down. Aggro and Combo decks won't forgive slow starts all the time.
I have been testing the tribes and i am an advocate for them. I like the ability for them to efficiently combat crypt, and I also like the higher consistency with them in the deck. I have found that 5-6 Pimps seems to fit into the deck perfectly. I see more keepable hands that go: Pimp/tribe, Land, dregger and I always keep them. Also they provide some big blockers against goyf.
Instead of what have you tested it? I really like the card,, but cant find slots for it.. Only the Careful Studys (maybe cutting 1 for "the 5th Imp")
O, and about the FKZ, I will play 1 SB, cause MB most of the time you SB it out.. And I had 1 SB place, and no place MB.. I play it instead of the Sage in my SB (see my last list)..
And against the question:
Brehn (cause you also play with Gamble SB), what do you SB out when the Gambles + 3/4 other cards come in? Cause last tourney I really saw my deck became very slow after SBing..
Jip
This really doesn't make sense. I feel like you want the deck to be AS RETARDED AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE in Game 1. FKZ is absolutely necessary to achieve this - he's simply awesome in the maindeck. The rest of the match usually slows down, as you bring in cards that dilute the combo but aid against hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ
You saw the post spirit of the wretch? That are the cards/MU where I want the FKZ.. Like enchantress gonna board their Moats/Grasses out,, or Staxx his Prisons/Magus of the Tabernacles.. Of cource not,, G2 you also need the FKZ here, but I wont play it main, cause these decks are very rarely played, and I dont have the MB slots for him..
And in most MU's, you dont have to be really fast G1, cause they dont have hate to you.. Please say why you have to be so fast G1,, I dont see it..
You really don't want to leave anything to chance Game 1, that's why I feel speed is important. If you somehow manage to lose the first game, chances are very good that you will lose the match.
Yes, they have hate. They have Engineered Explosives or Pernicious Deed or Devastating Dreams or Wrath of God or Cataclysm or Aluren or Cunning Wish->Echoing Truth or Burning Wish->Pyroclasm or Glittering Wish->C/Punishment. Those can all be topdecked. And if you returned a Grave-Troll, any of these + a chumpblocker can steal the game. Let's take spiritofthewretch's list and complete it:Quote:
Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ
Ichorid
Cephalid Breakfast
Anything with Enlightened Tutor
Burn
Stax
Enchantress
High Tide Combo
4c Landstill (EE/Deed)
UW/UWb Landstill (EE/Wrath/C.Wish)
Aluren (Aluren/Deed)
Death & Taxes (Cataclysm)
Angel Stompy (Cataclysm)
Rabid Wombat, Mighty Quinn (Wrath, Moat)
RGSA, RGBSA (B.Wish)
Aggro Loam, CAL/r (B.Wish / Dreams)
The Rock/Doran/Funkbrew/Truffle Shuffle (Deed / G.Wish)
Some Deadguy/g-Variants (Deed)
MUC (Propaganda/C.Wish)
TEC (Wrath)
Rifter (Pyroclasm, Slice and Dice)
Polar Express (topdecked win)
Life.dec (topdecked win)
MossNought (topdecked win)
I will Survive (topdecked win)
Gargangel Stompy (Moat)
Train Wreck (Decree of Pain, Damnation, Deed, Punishment)
Anything with Trinket Mage
43land (Tabernacle <- Gamble)
Pox (Tabernacle, Ghostly Prison)
Eternal Garden (Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm <- Crop Rotation)
Those are rarely played, you say? Some of them yes, some of them no. I don't like losing to random jank. I especially don't like losing to random jank game 1. (Not that all of the listed decks are jank...)
This should be the guideline:
Quote:
You really don't want to leave anything to chance Game 1, that's why I feel speed is important. If you somehow manage to lose the first game, chances are very good that you will lose the match.
Looking at all those Extended lists I am not sure whether running a full playset of Ichorid and Cabal Therapy is the right choice. I think in every Matchup but heavy Control like Landstill 4 Ichorid seem to be overkill and just take up precious slots. Of course cutting an Ichorid would weaken the eot--> discard mode a bit but on the other hand it would give us the possibility to fit a full playset of Careful Study or Street Wraith into the deck which would really improve the quality of the draws a lot.
Nevertheless I think we shouldn't completely play the Extended style. Akroma is definately not that good in legacy and Tireless Tribe gets outclassed by LED + Deep Analysis. Furthermore we always have to keep in mind that there is Swords to Plowshares in Legacy which is a possibility to finally get rid of one of our Ichorids.
So what do you think, can one Ichorid/Therapy be cutted from the maindeck?
One Ichorid could concievably be, but I doubt it.
Cutting a Cabal Therapy from this deck is under no circumstances whatsoever the right choice. Therapy lets you amass Zombie armies, knock Trolls out of your own hand, and quickly disrupt any fast strategy or answer your opponent has, including taking down Tormod's Crypt and Planar Void if you get a good enough start on game 3.
This is something I noticed in Smoky Squirrel's list, but it's possible other Ichorid players have made this mistake:
If you've cut every non-blue, non-black spell from your lists (i.e. no Gamble, no Ray of Revelation, etc.), then stop playing rainbow lands and run eight blue duals of your choice. 4 Seas if you have them, and probably 4 Ravnica duals or painlands (getting a fetchland Stifled can be ugly).
Incidentally, this also gives you the option of running Wonder again.
I thoroughly agree with this. Watery Grave/Underground Sea is a pretty strong setup, and as the only off-color cards I ever want are enchantment removal spells, this seems like a pretty solid idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
What? And open ourselves up to Hurricane? And you call yourself an adept.Quote:
Incidentally, this also gives you the option of running Wonder again.
This is a really strong idea, though. This lets us swing with annoying 1/1's on the table much more frequently.
@Nihil
No mistake running the rainbow lands. I'd much rather run the Underground Seas and such, I just don't have 'em... Some are coming my way though. As for the Echoing Truth, they are really nice actually, and I cast them as much as I would cast Ray of Revelation or Ancient Grudge.
Even if you don't have Underground Seas or Polluted Deltas, Underground River is a strict upgrade over City of Brass, and Watery Grave is generally considered better than Underground River.
Obviously if you are not running Rays/Grudge SB the rainbow lands go out and in go USeas and Graves, but its almost definitely a mistake to cut the Rays/Grudge from the SB, they answer so many things you just cant any other way.
What do you actually think about Cephalid Sage? What is the right number for them? 0, 1, 2? At the moment I am running 2 to make sure the eot discard plan works out well, but I might change it because drawing them in your opening hand is really annoying. Furthermore I think, that they might be overkill quite often. Actually the whole Dread Returns plan with running FKZ and Sage and more than 2 DR might be overkill, nevertheless it wins game that couldn't be won otherwise. In my opinion the only way to make the DR Package reliable is to play at least 3 Dread Return, 1 FKZ + 1-2 Sage.
Of course I take mulligans, theyre a fine point to your success. If you dont understand that a hand will completely crumble to a crumble to something like Goblin Lackey your not gonna get far in the tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brehn
I rarely find myself in the triple timewalk games. Infact I found I only really had those when I was testing Serum Powder. Sometimes its a mistake to not keep your 7 card hand if it has enough juice in it but no outlet. Ill give you an example.
Putrid Imp
Street Wraith
Troll
Stinkweed
Cabal Therapy
Deep Analysis
Dread Return
If you dont keep this hand normally Id like you to consider the possibility of finding a good 6 card hand that can evade hate cards. At six cards your already gonna give your opponent a timewalk if its just as bad as the above hand. If you have mana/LED/outlet combo then you can attempt to start rolling but if you opponent has a way to stop you the whole game can be lost. Look at this..
City of Brass
PImp
Stinky
Deep Analysis
Dread Return
Narcomeaba
This is our 6 card hand that fumbles to Force, Daze, Mogg Fanatic, Swords to Plowshares. But not Crypt (oh boy). It will surely lose to goblins since they can Waste your land after killing your imp.
Sometimes you can work yourself into a 6-4 card hand that has mana/LED/outlet and a Therapy to clear the way or a hand with LEDx2 or LED + PImp. Thats why this deck is so good, it can be invulnerable to all hate. But the possibility of crafting a hand like that sometimes isnt worth the sacrifice of DDD.
Now lets return to the above 7 card hand..
Putrid Imp
Street Wraith
Troll
Stinkweed
Cabal Therapy
Deep Analysis
Dread Return
This hand has alot going for it. If your on the play you replace Street Wraith with the top card of your deck. You have 16/53 cards that will allow you a safe combo passage. If you on the draw your really in good shape, you go draw discard but if you have a hand this loaded you can safely take a draw phase or two to find your LED or land. Keeping the dredger in the yard to bait crypts. Street Wraith in this senario can make up for the lake of dredging for a turn or so while you dig for the card you need. Like I said its also an amazing way to bait crypt activations.
If you go to discard for a couple turns you can pitch the Therapy and almost always trigger an enemy crypt.
______________________________________
Why do I care if my opponent "loses" a removal spell to take care of the imp? Removal is worthless against the deck for what its worth thanks to recurring growing armies. Swords to Plowshares for instance is really only effective when its hitting the Imp your talking about. What good is a creatre you expect to die?
You nearly always have a Dredger in the graveyard are you honestly calling Street Wraith win more? lol
This deck doesnt have a hard time beating combo. Id say most combo is evenly matched. You can race them since your just as fast or faster, you have more copies of Cabal Therapy than any other deck, and post board you have Chalice of the Void to help too.
The only combo decks that dont use the combat phase are Solidarity and Tendrils decks that forsake Empty the Warrens. (why would they?)
Ichorid loves Wrath of God. Its four mana, if your not dead by the time I surely Therapied it out of your hand. StP is only good if your play you bank on PImp too much. Deed is slow, only effective against zombie tokens, and can be Therapied before turn 3..
Ichorid is a combo deck.
Are you really telling me the because Street Wraith is a great card to sb out I dont know how to sb with this deck.?? Bane of the Living?
This hand is perfectly keepable in most matchups. I'm not arguing against that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Still, sometimes you have to take mulligans. If you play 11 dredgers, the probability of not finding one in your opening 7 cards is 22.24%. So at least 1 out of 5 hands will get sent back.
While this hand is not very good, it's not horrible either. It doesn't necessarily fumble to Fanatic and Swords, if you're lucky enough to have a dredger in your top 5 cards (the probability of this being 61.37%, assuming 11 dredgers in the deck). Now replace the Putrid Imp with a Street Wraith and you'll see that you have the choice of either a double Time Walk or going down to 5. Point taken?Quote:
City of Brass
PImp
Stinky
Deep Analysis
Dread Return
Narcomeaba
This is our 6 card hand that fumbles to Force, Daze, Mogg Fanatic, Swords to Plowshares. But not Crypt (oh boy). It will surely lose to goblins since they can Waste your land after killing your imp.
I prefer my Ichorids not to get sworded. Maybe it's just me.Quote:
Swords to Plowshares for instance is really only effective when its hitting the Imp your talking about. What good is a creatre you expect to die?
Umm.... yep?Quote:
You nearly always have a Dredger in the graveyard are you honestly calling Street Wraith win more? lol
What? You're actually saying that combo is "evenly matched"? Find some semi-competent TES/Belcher/SI players and test. Not to mention those nasty Iggy Pop builds with maindeck Leylines.Quote:
This deck doesnt have a hard time beating combo. Id say most combo is evenly matched. You can race them since your just as fast or faster, you have more copies of Cabal Therapy than any other deck, and post board you have Chalice of the Void to help too.
The only combo decks that dont use the combat phase are Solidarity and Tendrils decks that forsake Empty the Warrens. (why would they?)
I told you that it sounds like you don't know how to sideboard. Telling me "A reason to play Wraith is that you know what to sideboard out" lead to this comment. There's no difference between playing Wraiths and siding them out and playing other cards and siding them out, so that's hardly a good argument.Quote:
Are you really telling me the because Street Wraith is a great card to sb out I dont know how to sb with this deck.?? Bane of the Living?
But if the Street Wraith is any card not named Street Wraith, then you know whether or not it's correct to mulligan the hand. If it's Street Wraith, you don't. If you draw an opening seven with a Street Wraith, you're essentially drawing an opening hand of six cards you can see and one you can't. Any time you're missing exactly one element in an opening hand, be it mana, dredgers, or discard, and you have a Street Wraith, over 50% of the time the Street Wraith is not going to get you the missing element you need. But you don't know. You're handicapping yourself, crippling your opening hands, by not knowing what's actually in your opening hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
By not running Street Wraith, you're running more of the three elements: Mana, Dredgers, or Discard, and thereby you're increasing your chances of not having a missing element in your opening hand. And when you are missing an element, you at least have all the information you need on whether or not to mulligan the hand.
In this case and with that reasoning, I think Tacosnape is right, since the possible options (dredgers, mana, discard, draw) are more divided. In Belcher, Street Wraith is a good card, since you can consider him to be a card that adds mana, since the deck is only win conditions and mana.
Now, for defending the card. I run 2 Street Wraith whereas everybody runs 2 Careful Study or something of that kind. Bane of the Living actually convinced me of doing that by one simple argument: it is a black creature. Running him allows for the slow dredge and more safe path to victory instead of 'comboing out' with Flame-Kin Zealot.
First of all, Street Wraith allows Ichorid to come back more, and ultimately creates more tokens. This happens slowly but surely. If your opponent is packing Crypt or Engineered Explosives, he does not know when to use it exactly, since the loss is not as big if you slow dredge. This is true even if there is no Street Wraith though, but the plan is just more consistent with.
Second, he is uncounterable dredge. This really matters actually. It has happened more than once that my opponent had a chalice at 1 out, I just needed a dredge to win the game, and I was stuck on one land, a Breakthrough or a Careful study in hand... That sucks...
So in short, when I have a hand with Street Wraith in it, I evaluate the hand as if he weren't there, and not by thinking he could be the best thing I will be able to draw, that is just a wrong assumption. For me he is just another chance to dredge.
I lol'd! Long and heavy!Quote:
Originally Posted by Brehn
Anyway, from my point of view Brehn is right with all the points he made.
I will play this deck in Hassloch the next sunday again and let you guys now how it went.
Street Wraith is a dredge card. Why do people view it as anything different? I see where you guys are coming from in a sense, but I feel as though individuals focus on the ability to cycle it for X card and subsequently get hung up on what X card could be rather then looking at it as free dredge and fodder for Ichorid reanimation. Two purposes it serves quite well in my opinion.
Yes even our Legacy Adept Tacosnape assumes you should simply filter a card off the top of your deck with Street Wraith or that "Your only really seeing 6 out of 7 cards." You shouldnt be playing him as the waste of space your used to using him as in Belcher. The Street Wraiths ultimate use is a bluffed dredge. Free and uncounterable. Alot of hate that comes in along side graveyard hate is REB's. Street Wraith can help you tread water against Red decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar
You need to realize that the free Time Walks for your opponent are going to happen no matter what different 4-8 cards are in your version of Ichorid. Street Wraith helps you recover an entire turn off that for a meager 2 life.
Also dont look at it as though Putrid Imp and SW are trying to maintain the same role. Theyre on completely different ends of the spectrum. I personally view PImp as a 3 star card in a 5 star line up. Its not exactly easy to find the room for improvements in this deck but I assure you I will always lead the forefront.
qfftQuote:
Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar
People put it in belcher for the wrong reasons. this is truly a deck where street wraith shines. it's the *drawing a card* bit for free that matters. you know what that card draw is going to be... it's going to be a grave troll!
Hi guys! I've been playing with this deck lately and I have a question for ya:
What's the right number of Ichorids?
Sorry if this has been asked before but I was looking to the extended lists of the latest GP, and most of them play only 3, and the deck is more or less the the same (well, the legacy version should be a little more faster).
4. Anything else is just wrong.
Fine. But why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brehn
Honestly, I can see very good reasons for running 4 (it's your best chance after the bridges get removed, it creates some tokens every turn...) but also very good reasons to run 3 and fit the fourth PImp or the fourth Careful Study (less mulligans, higher probability of a broken start...).
Bridges get removed horribly fast. And without Ichorids you quickly run out of creatures to die and give you zombies anyway, since you will probably discarding your hand and dredging after the first turns. Narcomoebas alone won't usually give enough zombies for a long game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfrago
You need 4 in Legacy but it really depends how often you play against Swords to Plowshares. Extended doesnt have it but does normally play Extirpate so playing 3 Ichorids becomes some sort of strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfrago
The problem with Extended is everytime the season comes around people try to do stupid bull to legacy decks that actually weakens it. Take Tireless Tribe and Akroma for example. Alot of extended players may find they have a liking for Legacy and try to jump right into the format toting Akroma along with them. Would you have really considered Tireless Tribe 6 months ago?
This is a good point. I did not consider StP.:rolleyes: I'll stick with four, since Landistill is, more or less, half of my meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Hate to agree with Bane, but he's right. You run 4 Ichorids because you need more Ichorids than your opponents have Swords to Plowshares.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfrago
@bane of the living
You posted some hands with you "Street Wraith list", but i wasn't able to find that list, so can you post the list you're referring to? And if your that kind can you post your Sb for a general/unknown meta?
Yea Im Pm'd for it constantly, here it is with no disgression since I dont plan on playing it for a bit..Quote:
Originally Posted by gnurbel2000
4 LED
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
3 Street Wraith
4 Narcomeoba
1 Flame Kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Gravetroll
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
3 Deep Analysis
4 Breakthrough
sb:
4 Leyline of the Void
3-4 Chain of Vapor
4 Chalice of the Void
1-2 Ray of Revelation
0-1 Platinum Angel
0-1 Crippling Fatigue
0-2 Contagion
Crippling Fatigue is against Gaddock Teeg and Contagion for Yixid Jailer. Unfortunalty niether card handles both.. If anyone can think of a better option let me know but regardless I think its important to have some form of spot removal in the current format.
I've boarded Swords to Plowshares before. It deals with anything, without removing your Bridges. You just have to draw the damn thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Darkblast may also be considered. You just start your engine as normal, then dredge it back and keep it as an out to Jailer - for that specific problem, it is better than StP. With the upkeep-dredge-recast trick, it can also kill Gaddock Teeg (though it requires two lands, or a land + a LED to blow up in your upkeep).
Seal of Removal solves the problem of Yixlid Jailer and Gaddock Teeg also. Seal of Removal also can be played before you nerf your entire hand with LED/Breakthrough asshattery, and can be casted off a Cephalid Coliseum. Then you just Therapy whatever you bounce out of their hand.
It can also bounce any of your opponent's creatures that's about to die from combat and eat your Bridges, though Swords to Plowshares similarly fulfills this requirement.
Darkblast would be better if it could kill Teeg without the upkeep trick (Two black is stretching it) and if it didn't eat your Bridges if you happen to get an early one. However, the fact that it at least works as a dredger makes it an option.