[Deck] Dragon Stompy

I am just throwing the idea out there. If the card has already been tested as a sideboard option against black based aggro, Fairie Stompy and all sorts of random aggro, feel free to ignore me.

But couldn't it replace Pyrokinesis. The main nongoyf creatures that see play are Fairie Stompy's Flyers and Sui Blacks Dudes. FTK still 2 for 1 against either of these two decks as well as all sorts of other randomness (affinity etc). You already have enough tools against Matron Storm decks, and Cephalid Breakfast seems to have fallen out of flavor. So I'm not positive Pyro is superior to FTK.

But if you don't want to replace Pyrokinesis could you make due playing three of each of the cards you listed along with 3 FTK?

I was just wondering if the card has been tested recently at all by anyone.

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I was just wondering if the card has been tested recently at all by anyone.

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Flametounge Kavu was used before Tarmogoyf was printed.

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As for the rest, Pyrokinesis is free, instant speed, and is better against things like Goblins. 4 mana is a lot, especially for a creature that gets its ass kicked by Goyf.

I guess my point is, when you are talking about versus Fairie Stompy or Black based aggro...

FTK 2 for 1s your opponent (you take out two creatures for the price of one card).
Pyrokinesis 2 for 1s yourself (you lose two cards to take out one creature usually).

I guess FTK is a decent sideboard option if your meta has no graveyard-based decks, no thresh, and no combo. But you should already be stomping MBA, and I don't see what matchups FTK improves that aren't already awesome except for other chalice aggro.

Well, FTK would be replacing Pyrokinesis.

How is Pyrokinesis good against Thresh? You will be siding in Trinispheres, versus thresh, but I see no reason to side in Pyrokinesis.

You already have a lot of options against Matron based combo, Chalice, Trinisphere etc.

How many ppl have been testing Akroma, AoF in this deck? The card is the stone cold nuts. This deck has can easily get the 8 mana to hard cast Akroma and has no issues with the morph cost most of the time. Seathing Songs becomes even more threatening with Akroma's inclusion (uncounterability is lete). Its morph cost can be played as early as turn 2, and best of all , your opponent wont know if your playing a Gathan Raiders or an Akroma ;). If you can generate enough mana to abuse dragon, instead cast a creature that is practically unkillable, has trample, and unconterable IMO.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

FTK 2 for 1s your opponent (you take out two creatures for the price of one card).
Pyrokinesis 2 for 1s yourself (you lose two cards to take out one creature usually).

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Seriously? Do you honestly think that card advantage is a driving force behind Dragon Stompy? The entire premise behind the deck is speed and power, not long term card advantage. Every time you play a Seething Song, pitch a Simian Spirit Guide, imprint on a Chrome Mox, or flip a Gathan Raider, you 2 for 1 yourself. It's not about losing cards. It's about the effect that you're able to achieve. Along those lines, the ability to play free, versatile removal at instant speed is a lot more important than getting a 4/2 body. It's foolish to evaluate FTK and Pyrokinesis solely in terms of card advantage when there are clearly more important factors involved.

Also, what in the world is "Matron based combo"?

It's removal plus a solid clock that your opponent is forced to answer. Your F. Stompy opponent trading a second creature with FTK at the very least means they can't use that creature to chump block your Pit Dragon.

I meant Warrens based combo.

As for Akroma, I don't know, it eats up two turns to cast, and even then is significantly harder to unmorph than any of your other creatures.

And it's not even that fast of a clock really.

I was thinking of FTK as a replacement for Tormod's Crypt or Trinisphere. Pyrokinesis is just too good to cut from the sideboard. Helps you get hellbent and kills multiple guys. I wouldn't cut it for FTK.

I really like Akroma from my testing with her. I only play one at the moment, so she doesn't show up too often. When she does however, it's gg. She has proSTP which is huge obviously, and she is very playable off of Seething Songs and other accel. First turn morph into second turn Akroma off of a Song continues to be a jaw dropper. A lot of people don't expect her as well, so you can easily play that into your advantage. I don't think I'd go over 2 however because she is very mana intensive.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

It's removal plus a solid clock that your opponent is forced to answer. Your F. Stompy opponent trading a second creature with FTK at the very least means they can't use that creature to chump block your Pit Dragon.

I meant Warrens based combo.

As for Akroma, I don't know, it eats up two turns to cast, and even then is significantly harder to unmorph than any of your other creatures.

And it's not even that fast of a clock really.

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Faerie Stompy...yeah that sees widespread play. Assuming your F. Stompy opponent (all one of them, if they show up) doesn't have their critter equipped with Sword of Pro-FTK or Jitte, you might actually hit them. 2-1-ing them is pure fantasy, of course, since they will equip someone with either of the 'oops I fly & then shank FTK' equipments but you deal much better in deck fantasy than reality anyway. The point of a SB is to answer weaknesses of the maindeck - FTK does not do this effectively enough, which you might have realized had you read the thread.

Akroma has been very good to me as a 2 of. It has allowed me to win games versus blue based decks that I have no business winning (ask the Dreadstill guy from Hadley) :cool: as well as sucking out a removal when I would rather Gathan Riaders resolve. As for it being a slow clock, 3 turns is slow why? That's faster than Goyf most of the time, which a reasonable modern standard.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

I guess my point is, when you are talking about versus Fairie Stompy or Black based aggro...

FTK 2 for 1s your opponent (you take out two creatures for the price of one card).
Pyrokinesis 2 for 1s yourself (you lose two cards to take out one creature usually).

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Do you realize that black based aggro runs a bunch of things with low toughness, like Confidant and Shade? You can pretty easily get 2 creatures with a Pyrokinesis.

I thought it was general consensus that Sulfur Elemental > Akroma.

Has any attempt been made to fatten Dragon Stompy by removing some of the acceleration for additional 3cc disruption?

The topdeck problem if the opponent manages your first disruption and threat is really an issue. For me at least this has been due to the great chance of drawing unnecessary acceleration and not seeing another threat for several turns.

I occasionally board out acceleration against decks where disruption is stronger, but maindeck I would only do it in a really combo-heavy meta and all I would do is cut maybe one song and/or a SSG (along with something else non-accel).

Just because its more fun playing R'Akromas, I tried playing this build casually for a few games:

10 Mountain
4 City
4 Tomb
4 Mox
1 Lotus Petal
4 SSG

4 Chalice
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus

2 Blazing Shoal
4 Seething Song

4 Gathan Raiders
4 RPD
4 Slogger
3 Akroma

Probably not as solid as with Jittes, but the Shoals do help hellbent and abuse Akroma's (and Slogger's) cc from time to time (and are red). Adding two red cards also made me more comfortable trying a single Lotus Petal to tip balance a little towards mana production so that playing Akroma would happen a little more often.

Still, it was fun playing for a couple of games.

So, I had a decent showing, getting 14th place out of 94 at the tournament I mentioned earlier. Here's my thoughts on the deck after these weeks of testing and the tournament itself:

1) This deck seems to get more consistent (and fun!) the more you practice it. When I first tried the deck mostly because of budget concerns, I was mildly annoyed at all the one-trick-pony games I was playing. With time, I discovered how the optimal opening was not nearly as obvious as it seemed - in particular, it takes a while to gauge when it is appropriate to just slowroll your threats. Doing so drastically improves your mulligan rate, too.

Also, as can be seen in the report, being in an actual tournaments and getting all sorts of hints as to what you are playing (from actual scouting to off-hand remarks) can be decisive to your play.

2) Akroma is completely worth a slot in the maindeck. What she's got to offer over Mauler and Elemental is instrumental in pulling you out of many, many no-win situations (Landstill, anyone?), whereas it's much less likely that having a Grey Ogre rather than a 3/2 or a Mauler loses you the game. I think the second copy is only appropriate in a fairly slow metagame, and is probably best in the sideboard, but I'm recommending the first one to basically anyone.

3) Mauler kicks the shit out of Sulfur Elemental. Simply put, I've had Maulers countered several times; if our favourite 3/2 didn't have Split Second, it would only get countered once in a blue moon.

After some time playing with Mauler, the arguments in favour of Sulfur Elemental seem incredibly weak: it hits DoJ tokens? Mauler is much better at not letting them stabilize to the point of cycling DoJ for 3+. It kills en-Kor dudes? Aside from how little play that deck sees nowadays, you have So. Many. Ways to stop them from going off - especially postboard, when literally everything hurts them. It surprise-blocks Mongoose? Which one would you rather have against Threshold in the first place - and more importantly, how often do you want to block in the first place?

The vast majority of times Mauler is a blank, Sulfur is too. If the opponent can shrug off a 2/2 without playing a single spell, there are good chances they could shrug off a 3/2 as well. Even against a 3/3 Mongoose, if it's late in the game, they probably can't attack without you winning the race despite having a smaller creature - and that's if they don't cast any more spells.

4) Jitte is awful every time it isn't a life-saver. I honestly don't know what to do of this card; it's hurting the deck's consistency more than any other slot (Slogger and Akroma included), but cutting it would not be an improvement for any metagame with a honest Red presence. I'm strongly considering putting it in the SB for my next tournament, which theoretically should feature a comboish meta. Or perhaps I'll try Sword of Light and Shadow, which at least does something against control.

Congratulations on the finish, and great report! In response to your points:

1) Just out of curiosity, do you have any examples of this? I'd be interested in hearing some of the non-obvious plays you encountered.

2) I can understand why people would want Akroma due to the outs that she provides, but in my experience, she seems too hard to cast or even flip. I assume that you didn't find that to be the case.

3) The more I play with the deck, the more I agree: overall, Mauler is generally better than the Elemental. Unless you're playing lots and lots of Breakfast and Landstill, Mauler is stronger.

4) How did you find Jitte to be awful, and how would Sword of Light and Shadow be any better? I've found Jitte to be amazing in almost every matchup, and would never cut it.

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Originally Posted by b4r0n

1) Just out of curiosity, do you have any examples of this? I'd be interested in hearing some of the non-obvious plays you encountered.

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There aren't many actual tricks with the deck - one time I cast Slogger a turn later so I could pitch SSG to it and surprise-trade with Goyf, and that's about the most sneaky it's ever gotten (if you don't count stuff like bluffing your opponent to not block Pit-Dragon while both your cards in hand are Songs or apes).

By 'non-obvious', I mean that you learn to tailor the explosiveness to the opponent you're facing. For example, Eva Green is short on removal, runs discard, and has a tendency to drop very early Tombstalkers, so the absolute priority is to put that fat on the table ASAP, pitching with total abandon (exception: turn 1 Chalice on the play, if Wasteland doesn't rape you). Against Thresh, it's generally much better to play conservatively, saving SSG as Daze protection - unless they've got a three-creature opener, or play Thoughtseize.

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4) How did you find Jitte to be awful, and how would Sword of Light and Shadow be any better? I've found Jitte to be amazing in almost every matchup, and would never cut it.

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Awful in the "oh great, I've spent four mana and my two-turn clock is still a two-turn clock, and just as vulnerable" way. Killing creatures off with Jitte counters was a fairly uncommon occurrence in both testing and tournament; it tends to only happen when I find myself without any of the 13 fatties, which rule the combat phase without need for equipment.

I'm interested in try out Sword of Light and Shadow because 1) against aggro, I was primarily using Jitte to win life races anyway and 2) against control, SoLaS should give me the same damage bonus of Jitte over two turns but also provide protection from spot removal and recur threats in case the opponent topdecks a sweeper. Not having to pick between losing Hellbent and losing two cards should also be a very minor, but very welcome side benefit.

Although Jitte has been a part of the deck, I find that the Swords have given the players the edge most of the time due to the stable boosts that it out fits the creatures in most situations.

With so many over powered creatures, Lightning Greaves could work.

You can play it turn one off an Ancient Tomb, and it will later on give your pit dragon haste (killing them one turn faster). and will protect it from removal

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Originally Posted by b4r0n

How did you find Jitte to be awful, and how would Sword of Light and Shadow be any better? I've found Jitte to be amazing in almost every matchup, and would never cut it.

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From experience I can see the answer to this being situational, In a more drawn out game I would lean more towards Sword of Light and Shadow for the regain of creatures and life, that will more then likely lead to vicotry along with the pro stp your creature gains, In the aggro matchup Id be in favor of Jitte because the ability to pick off creatures is probably key assuming you aren't holding them back with trinishpere and chalice.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

With so many over powered creatures, Lightning Greaves could work.

You can play it turn one off an Ancient Tomb, and it will later on give your pit dragon haste (killing them one turn faster). and will protect it from removal

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excellent plan, but then you have to make sure out always have a mammoth to dishout the next turn to make it worth the effort.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

With so many over powered creatures, Lightning Greaves could work.

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It's not a threat on its own, it's not powerful disruption, it doesn't have as big as an impact as any other equipment.

Seems to have no redeeming qualities.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

With so many over powered creatures, Lightning Greaves could work.

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It is also poor in multiples as it is meant to be moved around. I guess it could be OK as a 1-of, but I really don't see what you would want to cut.

Seems horrible. I hate running 4 equipment cards because they just suck when you can't draw a threat, but they are just too good against aggro and the life gain is needed. This just doesn't do anything. What would you cut? Lists are tight.

Lightning greaves is awful. Pit Dragon is usually not a creature you want to swing with the turn it comes into play, as it is often not hellbent and you really won't have th mana to make it fly. Considering they can kill the creature in response to equip... (same reason I don't believe in SoLS vs. StP)

I'd much rather have something that makes bad creatures into threats than something that makes bombs bombier.

Want to bump this thread with some discussion. I have changed my list a bit and have been liking it.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
9 Mountain
1 Zoetic Cavern

4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow / Fire and Ice

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Arc Slogger
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury

Cavern has been pretty nice. Draw back has never been a problem and morphing it is just fun. I still have been liking Akroma. Been going back and forth between it and Sulfur, but it is just so much better against Landstill and it is fun to morph. I love the tricks it allows.

My SB is kind of all over the place.

3 Winter Orb / Pithing Needle
2 Trinisphere
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Anarchy
4 Pyroclasm

I like Winter Orb over Pithing Needle because of decks like MWC. I go back and forth between them.

Okay, for the 500th time?

Run Four Pithing Needle.

Seriously. I would run about nine in board if it were legal to do so. Needle wins you so many matches and it's still good against mono-anything control. You have absolutely no way in this deck to deal with artifacts, enchantments, and certain other activated abilities that just wreck you. Needle wins.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Okay, for the 500th time?

Run Four Pithing Needle.

Seriously. I would run about nine in board if it were legal to do so. Needle wins you so many matches and it's still good against mono-anything control. You have absolutely no way in this deck to deal with artifacts, enchantments, and certain other activated abilities that just wreck you. Needle wins.

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Ugh, I see what you are saying after getting smacked aroung by Deed today. I still like WOrb though.

So does this deck basically just get crushed by bad draws, solidarity, and crush everything else? I proxied it up and I'm considering playing it at a lotus tourney in june.

How would it be bad against solidarity? I just think that somehow solidarity would have issues with chalice at 1. or a trinisphere. Even if it was horrible against solidarity, nobody really plays it anymore to my knowledge.

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Originally Posted by THEchubbymuffin

How would it be bad against solidarity? I just think that somehow solidarity would have issues with chalice at 1. or a trinisphere. Even if it was horrible against solidarity, nobody really plays it anymore to my knowledge.

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Solidarity can simple counter your threat, giving you almost no clock. This gives the Solidarity player plenty of time to get answers for those artifacts. Solidarity can also win trough both Chalice 1 and 3Sphere.

But yes indeed, no one ever plays Solidairty anymore, so that's just another positive thing for this deck.

As probably the only man who has played this deck multiple times against high tide (spring tide though, which is actually faster than solidarity), I can say that it is a bad matchup for them. It basically comes down to how much disruption I draw and whether they have Force of Will. If I only get one piece and they have Force, its a little better for them, but I can still win.

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Originally Posted by THEchubbymuffin

How would it be bad against solidarity? I just think that somehow solidarity would have issues with chalice at 1. or a trinisphere. Even if it was horrible against solidarity, nobody really plays it anymore to my knowledge.

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There were 5 solidarity players at my last 1.5, and 2 made top 8. I saw dragon stompy play against 2 in a row and just lose horribly.

I'm pretty sure that if you're playing against a competent solidarity pilot you have almost no chance. Magus and moon are dead. Sphere can be bounced since you have no way to really resolve a clock if they draw a FoW. Same thing with chalice.

I only played once against Dragon Stompy with Solidarity. I won quite easily 2:0. The thing is:

a) if the Dragon Stompy pilot aims for a quick win before Solidarity can assemble the combo pieces, it's easy to disrupt this strategy (1 well placed FoW vs a key creature, for example).

b) if the Dragon Stompy pilot aims for a more controllish path (Chalice, Trinisphere, even Magus :tongue: ), his clock becomes much slower and Solidarity has the opportunity to wish for solutions in time.

The games were like this:
G1 he has Chalice 1 + 2 and 2 Magi of the Moon beating down. I wish for Rebuild and combo off next turn.
G2 I force 1 1st turn Defense Grid, 2nd turn he has Chalice 1 again. A hellbent Pit Dragon beats me from 17 to 5, next turn it gets Echoing truthed and countered when cast again. After several turns of draw-go and a lonely Simian Spirit Guide attacking, I manage to wish for Rebuild and finish the game at 2 life.


From my perspective, I see the matchup highly in Solidarity's favour, as long as there is still Rebuild in the SB.

DS and Solidarity's actually about even, speaking as a die-hard pilot of both. DS wins with Chalices and fast threats, Solidarity wins when DS gets a slow draw or can buy time with Force/Remand. The fact that DS can drop a Slogger or Dragon and outrace Solidarity on just that alone makes it a fight. Solidarity can keep pace by wrecking Chalice/Trinisphere with Rebuild, or just countering Chalice and ignoring Trinisphere.

It's worth noting that Blood Moon is actually pretty good against Solidarity on the first turn, as if you keep them off even one or two fetchlands, it can win you the game if there's a threat to back it up.

When I had Solidarity built, I played the decks against eachother all the time. Dragin Stompy would win easily just by being faster and then having 4 Chalice, 3 Trinisphere and 8 moons. I would usually pilot Solidarity and didn't even have the time to wish for Rebuild.

Do you guys think vexing shusher is worth playing in board?

Can the deck afford a RR creature that requires more R? I'm asking because of Ancient tomb and City may cause problems.

I want to try it really bad now that I think about it.

Bryant, the deck can support it. It still has 9-10 Mountains, SSG, Mox, and Seething Song. Woul dhelp a ton against control and most likely move it into favorable with 8 moons, trini and this, along with Needles if they run deed. Suggested SB with this I guess woud be:

4 Shusher
4 Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trinisphere
2 Anarchy (I fear Confinement)

Pyroclasms would be nice to fit in there but I think that board is strong.