Why would a land be in the sideboard if you have 0 Living Wish mainboard? If you are ever to side that in, keep it in the maindeck already and use that free slot for something better.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
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Why would a land be in the sideboard if you have 0 Living Wish mainboard? If you are ever to side that in, keep it in the maindeck already and use that free slot for something better.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
I've played land in my sideboard several times in FT. The basic idea is I keep extra lands in the sb to hedge against LD or control (basic Plains and basic Island both come to mind) as well as lands to splash additional colors (green and red duals have both seen play). These days, I would rather err on playing too many lands maindeck and siding them out when not necessary though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
Mine was a singleton plains for serenity and Pikula out of the board. It's a useless land drop game 1 in 99% of all circumstances and frees up a slot for more fun things that do stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
If you play against blue decks with Wasteland, such as Ubgx Landstill and Thrash, it's a very good land to have around in every game. Aside from that, having a minimum number of lands is good for you to reach 3 lands by turn 3-4 so you can combo using some piles that actually require extra-ritual mana, such as the Brainstorm + 2 cards + 1U pile. Unless you are running the hybrid version, you shouldn't be thinning the deck off lands. Up to a certain count, dropping lands is considered business.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
Obviously AdN lists will never be as "stable" as the traditional D-Day lists as drawing cards = randomness, and randomness = chance of fizzling. Also, the lifeloss that is synonymous with AdN puts in in burn range most of the time (this is important against stuff like UGr Thrash), which can be very problematic if in fact you do fizzle or didn't chant or don't chant afterwords (although that is much worse than chanting beforehand).Quote:
Originally Posted by Espenhein
I'm not interested in building an AdN list with the Doomsday shell. Here's why:
8x Fetches. The lifeloss here is very relevent. I pop on average 2 fetches a game, sometimes as many as 4x. Takes away between 2 and 4 uses of AdN.
Same goes for Doomsday and Bargain. I don't like going down really low in life, and AdN just makes it worse.
The lack of Chrome Mox in the list is a bit disturbing as it's relatively important after AdN. I would suggest putting a singleton/2x Burning Wish in as it can definitely be a plus. It can grab you a win-con very often, and also opens up new sideboard possibilities for removal and etc., along with the addition of a mini-EtW that could win you games.
I like Pact of Negation. I think it deserves at least 1 spot md in an AdN list and possibly a second.
Pce,
--DC
If you analyze the posted list, you'll notice several things of interest: no Cruel Bargain, several copies of Chrome Mox, a very low alternate mana cost, cards that have consistently translated into stability in combo decks (Sensei's Divining Top), and a very clear goal: Tendrils for lethal. Doomsday and Ad Nauseam don't conflict in the list I presented because (1) I do analysis before and during deck design and (2) I test my lists before posting them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Burning Wish is a terrible idea. Burning Wish solves 0 problems (outside of Extract/Jester's Cap/Cranial Extraction/Extirpate) and it does create color issues, space requirements in the sideboard, and is generally worse than just playing Brain Freeze (which is perfectly usable with Doomsday or Ad Nauseam to generate lethal storm.
8x fetches is not an issue because this list needs, on average, less life than other Ad Nauseam lists to win the game. The reasons here are very simple. With Ad Nauseam the list has a lower CMC and more relevant cards with a lower mana cost capable of ending the game (Mystical Tutor + Sensei's top) requiring less digging AND when lifeloss does become a problem, for example, against control the Doomsday plan is available for winning at as little as 2 life.
My bad on the C. Moxen. Missed them. Also, I failed to see how the deck would function with an AdN strategy, which includes additional mana-ramp and more tutors, leading me to my assumption of extra pain from said fetches. I've been playing a TES-ish version of AdN, and have found the Wish to be quite nice. I'll test and let you know how it goes. It may work. If not, I've never had a problem admitting I was wrong before, and I won't now either.
I think this is how it looks best from Emidln's variations on his first list:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Orim's Chant
1 Wipe Away
2 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor
1 Doomsday
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Meditate
1 Tendrils of Agony
I, too think that 3x Infernal Tutor are aplenty. I've been enjoying the PoN's. People say that the only time they are useful is when they're unneccessary, but that's absolutely not true. They are protection before-hand that you can tutor/top into in response to them countering your AdN. I think it's quite handy. It's also never a dead AdN card, as you can use it to up your storm count +1. A free storm count that loses you nothing in life when AdN'ing.
By the way, Emidln. Earlier you said that you need either 1/2 or a 2/1 on Infernal Tutor/IGG respectively to combo off successfully. This isn't true, it just means you need to make sure you hit a certain storm count before you IGG off.
Spell 1--Duress/BS/Ponder/Top/Petal/Whatever...
Spell 2--Chant
Spell 3--Rit
Spell 4--Rit/LED
Spell 5--IT
Spell 6--IGG
Spell 7--Rit (from 'yard)
Spell 8--Rit/LED (from 'yard)
Spell 9--IT (from 'yard)--> Tendrils
Spell 10-Tendrils
You can go the IGG route like this also:
--Top and LED in play--
Spell 1--Chant
Spell 2--LED/D. Rit/C. Rit
Spell 3--Mystical Tutor --> Infernal Tutor
Spell 4--Tap Top, (If you have, Pop Diamond (BBB)) --> Infernal Tutor
Spell 5--IT
Spell 6--IGG
Spell 7--accel (from 'yard)
Spell 8--accel (from 'yard)
Spell 9--IT (from 'yard)
Spell 10-Tendrils
Top in play, 1WUB available from lands. Obviously you can go for the D-Day kill as well with these requirements, but there are sometimes when it is necessary to go for the IGG win (burn comes to mind...as does UGr Thresh and Goyf Sligh).
Spell 1--Chant
Spell 2--LED
Spell 3--Dark Rit
Spell 4--IT--> IGG
Spell 5--IGG
Spell 6--Dark Rit
Spell 7--Dark Rit
Spell 8--IT--> Mystical Tutor
Spell 9--Mystical Tutor--> Tendrils
Spell 10-Tap SDT--> Tendrils
It's not uncommon (I know you know it's possible). I do it fairly often, and it's good to be able to IGG ftw. I play a singleton IT in my FDDT list. I just thought that I would mention it so people know it's an option. And the singleton IT isn't bad without IGG. Grabs a second Rit/LED, and in conjunction with LED acts as the 4th D-Day, and I'd rather see an IT than multiple D-Days. Personal Preference.
Further, I've been trying out Relic of Progenitus, and it does well. Here's why and how I've been using it:
1.) Acts as 5th Top. Not only that, but it gets around their Needle on Top (Ichorid does this, at least in my experience)
2.) It's good against Ichorid, being able to remove Ichorids and/or bridges slowly AND function with it's second ability while doing it. This is good for so much against Ichorid. I wish we could use Vampiric Tutor...
3.) It shrinks Goyfs and Mongeese. This can be important while trying to set up through CB. It just takes longer, and while I'm only trying one, I'm thinking of going -1 Extirpate (I run 2x) +1 Relic, upping me to a 2/1 split. However, I don't think this is the best idea, as 'Pate is good against blue control, much more so than relic would be, and therefore probably shouldn't be considered.
Anyway, Relic has been good for me in my testing. The only reason I decided to give it a shot was because it could act like a top for me. 5 tops gives me a better chance of having something to slap down turn 1 before Dragon Stompy gets Chalice down that will allow me to combo off through it.
Mentioning comboing off through chalice (which regardless of what some people believe, you just have to sometimes) reminds me that I'm doing something about that as well.
I've stopped playing K. Grip in the maindeck with 2x in the board. I'm thinking about this:
-1 Trop (Into SB)
+1 Rushing River (From the SB)
This drops me back down to 16 lands, but I'm fine with that.
Pce,
--DC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
This is for the very common situation of attempting to combo off without the benefit of additional cards in hand. This is specifically why I brought up the Mystical Tutor scenario. Obviously if you have the luxury of playing ritual effects or protection from hand, only a singleton Infernal Tutor and IGG are required, but if you have so many cards in hand, then your opponent hasn't been executing their gameplan very well and you should be winning. The point of playing Infernal Tutor and IGG in multiples is to be able to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, something exemplified by the classic Iggy Pop strategy of throwing down artifacts, letting your hand be wrecked, and knowing that you can still bring up Mystical, Infernal, or IGG to win right off the top.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
I tried your hybrid, and it's good. I like it. Balls-to-the-wall D-Day isn't that bad, but I won't be playing it as it's control aspect is weaker than possibly even TES's. I lose a lot of resilience game one to a lot of control, and I don't like that. However, I did goldfish against Ichorid 5 matches straight the other day. I was 10-0. That's sick. When you goldfish more consistantly than Ichorid, I'd say you are on to something. Once I fizzled with AdN, but I topdecked like Chuck Norris the next turn (WW Chant Ichorid's turn to timewalk--Game one) and combo'ed off. In hindsite I should have just IGG'ed that game, but I haven't played a aggro build of storm for a long time, so it took some getting used to.
It would be completely possible to play and win with in a less developed metagame. Lots of aggro and combo are easy to win against. I also played it against TES. It's matchup doesn't change much.
If you were to include a second bounce spell in the maindeck, would it be:
E. Truth
Rushing River
2nd Wipe Away
OR
Krosan Grip
I have my Trop and 2x Grips in the SB right now, with an E. Truth in the Trop Slot. I don't run Bayou, but if I ever put Grip in the maindeck (Which I would for a larger tourney), I will.
Also, against Dragon Stompy, I was advised to side out tops to make their needles hit nothing. I've been trying out Relic, and siding it in as well as all my bounce and serenity. I haven't hit it, but it's ability to be a permanent cantrip makes me think it's worth it if I ever hit it. Any thoughts?
What do I side against Thresh and Thrash, and Swan/Moon Thresh? I'm guessing just bounce and my singleton Abeyance against Thrash; Serenity, bounce and K. Grip against Thresh and S&M Thresh? (S&M Thresh--That makes me giggle...)
Thanks for the help.
Pce,
--DC
What kind of DD stack would you make if you already had ToA in hand and just needed as much storm as possible?
// Lands
1 [A] Bayou
1 [U] Tropical Island
1 [A] Badlands
1 [U] Volcanic Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [7E] Swamp (3)
1 [BD] Island (3)
1 [B] Tundra
// Spells
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
1 [OV] Meditate
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
1 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [ARE] Duress
1 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [WL] Doomsday
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [MR] Plains (3)
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [VI] Helm of Awakening
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
This is my deck. I'm thinking of dropping the Helm/Grapeshot kill from my sideboard (cause I haven't ever used it and I don't have time to actually practice it before the tournament tomorrow). Anything else that should change about the sideboard? I have no idea whatsoever of the meta.
You can use the usual brainstorm or SDT->IGG stack:
Cost: Sensei's Divining Top in play, 2 random cards in hand, 2 life, and 1U mana
Benefit: 9 storm + Tendrils
[Top]
Brainstorm
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Ill-Gotten Gains
Any card
[Bottom]
You can just have brainstorm in hand and put a SDT as first card in the stack.
This one is the most efficient in terms of mana spent/storm generated ratio.
If you don't wanna go for IGG you can use this stack:
Cost: Sensei's Divining Top in play, Tendrils in hand and B+draw4+"X" mana
Benefit: 7+"X" storm + Tendrils
[Top]
Draw4
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Sensei's Divining Top
Dark Ritual
[Bottom]
Come on now, we're more efficient than that.
Cost: 4UB + X, 4 life*, Sensei's Divining Top in play, Tendrils of Agony in hand.
Benefit: X + 17 Storm + Tendrils
// First Doomsday Pile
[Top]
Meditate
LED
LED
SDT
IGG
[Bottom]
// Second Doomsday Pile
[Top]
Meditate
LED
LED
SDT
Tendrils
[Bottom]
Procedure:
Meditate, LED, LED, Top, Top, IGG, LED, LED, Doomsday, Meditate, Top, Top, LED, LED, Top (6+X times), Tendrils
Sure, you _could_ do it with 16 life and Cruel Bargain/Infernal Contract, but both of us know you aren't going to. As a side note, 4UB should never actually equal 20 storm + Tendrils. Sensei's Divining Top is fucking broken.
Also, if you've boarded in helm of awakening,
Cost: Draw4Mana + B, 2 Life*, SDT in play, and Tendrils in hand
Benefit: infinite storm + Tendrils
[Top]
Meditate
Dark Ritual
SDT
Helm
Dark Ritual
[Bottom]
In that example, you can even use LED to get the post d-day mana, as the tendrils is just as good in the yard.
EDIT for clarity: This is referring to emidln's first stack. The LED can't get cracked in response to DDay, it has to be on the table and used in response to the first SDT activation so that Tendrils is still in the game and not removed by DDay.
Good call. I don't know if he needed 10 storm more for 3 colorless mana, but this is definetly good. Is there a more efficient way of making storm than the one I posted, that doesn't include Helm or IGG?Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
So, a short review of the tournament today. I got no notes from the games, but games never lasted long so I can give you the quick overview. On a side note, yes I do suck.
Match 1: GWB Loam
I open up slowly with Basic Island and Top with a hand that looked good for a turn 3/4 win. He drops a land on turn 1 and passes, I Brainstorm (nothing decent) and drop Underground Sea. On his turn, he drops Thorn of Amethyst. I had made the (obvious) mistake of playing before the tournament so he obviously knew I was playing combo. I drop a dual (I have Wipe Away and I could win the moment I got rid of the Thorn) and pass the turn without any plays to make. The next two turns, he drops Dark Confidants and Wastes me. So I'm stuck taking damage steadily and I don't have mana for Wipe Away. When he plays Vore and I have nothing decent in the Top3 cards, I scoop.
Side: -4 Chant, -1 Wipe Away, -1 IGG
+2 Extirpate, +2 Krosan Grip, +2 Ancient Grudge (not sure, something like this)
Game 2: He drops turn 1 Gaddock Teeg. I have no bounce, no removal and no alternate kill. I scoop.
Yes, this was stupid. However, untill this tournament, I had never heard a good word about Teeg in my meta and therefore assumed there would be only artifact based hate (and true to that, he had also sided in 4 Chalice of the Void and 4 Thoughtseize). Therefore, I thought no bounce was safe, but I guess I was just a moron for thinking so.
0-1 loss against Loam. Painful and stupid. Had I played safe here, I might've stood a chance.
Match Two: GWB Loam/Rock rogue
I start off fine and it looks like I'm heading for a safe turn 4/5 win (I knew what my friend was playing) but I never get the parts I need together as Doran is beating my face. Loss.
Sideboard: -Chant
+IT, IGG, 2 Extirpate (something like this, I'm not sure, once again)
Game 2: Turn 2: Hymn, Turn 3: Hymn, Turn 4: Hymn and Extirpate on my Tendrils of Agony. Scoop 'em up.
0-2 against two loam decks. I had checked around the hall (only 20ish people) and those were the only decks I should've won against. All the others were either (faster) combo (I have no problems with this matchup, but it scares me for some reason) or Dreadstill or ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (yes, I'm afraid of Counterbalance. You see, I'm just not good.)
Match 3: The Rock
Preboard, he has 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Hymn. Postboard, he gets Extirpate and 4 Duress. That just about tells you how the match went.
0-3, all winnable games. I swear to myself at this point, if I see one more Hymn to Tourach on the other side of the table, I'm quitting Legacy.
Match 4: Bye
Friendly guy, he saw I wasn't feeling too good so he scooped 'em up for me.
Match 5: Spanish Inquisition
Game 1 I keep him from winning with Duress and Spanish Inquisition does what it does a lot: fizzle. His Draw4's put him dangerously low and I hardly even need my Doomsday. First (and only) DD Stack I make all day.
DD
DRit
DRit
DRit
ToA
Sideboard: Wipe Away, 2Ponder and 1Brainstorm come out, I take an IGG, an IT and two 'Pates along for the ride (I seem to recall).
Game 2: Cabal Therapies keep me from winning. He does a small Tendrils to keep me from killing him the next turn(6 Storm + Tendrils) but wins off Belcher next turn.
Game 3: Duress and Chant keep him from winning. He tries to, but ends up putting himself on 5 with no danger (other than a huuuuuge bunch of Therapies). I go: D.Rit, LED, Mystical Tutor (putting ToA on top), sac Petal and Led for BBBB, draw with Top and win. Smiley face.
He would've won if he remembered that Mystical Tutor put cards on top of my library instead of my hand (I had told him earlier in the game, friendly as I am- it didn't matter anymore anyway, being at the last table) when I fetched the D.Rit. I can't recall the exact circumstances anymore.
2-3 ending, including a Bye. And it should've been 1-4, including a Bye. Hardly something to be proud of. I probably should've won my second game against Loam, but otherwise, I think I played as good as I could. Bad meta, is all I can say. Ad Nauseam scared people senseless into bringing too much combohate. I long for ye olden days around here, when decks that should scoop to combo were happy with 4 chalices or 4 Thoughtseizes for a small chance of victory.
My next tournament will probably be Faerie Stompy. I have no grudge against this deck, but it's just not right at the moment. And I'm not good enough of a player to pilot it, I feel.
I'm assuming it's Top into meditate, top, LED x2, top into top until it's 3BB floating with a top on the table, top into IGG, IGG into LED, LED, and something (is other mana in the yard assumed?), LEDx2, top into top, Tendrils, but I somehow fail to see how that's 20 storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Meditate
Top
LED
LED
Top
Top, rearrange IGG into top, grab IGG
IGG
LED
LED
Top
Top
Tendrils is only 10 storm + Tendrils. Obviously not bad, but I don't get 20 from this...
Meditate (2B)Quote:
Originally Posted by raharu
Top (1B)
Top (B)
LED
LED
IGG (BBB)
LED
LED
Doomsday (UUUBBB)
Meditate (BBB)
Top (BB)
Top (B)
LED
LED (BBBBBBB)
Top (BBBBBB)
Top (BBBBB)
Top (BBBB)
Tendrils of Agony
Okay, so I can't add. That's 17 + Tendrils. That's the second error I made with that pile actually (the first was my miscalculation of initial mana required). I'll correct this in the post. In terms of storm per mana, that's 3 storm per mana invested. This is less efficient than Brainstorm/Top+IGG piles but more efficient than the default Top+Meditate pile.
lolWhoops, I didn't see it was a Double Doomsday pile. My bad.
I'm going to apologize in advance for being a nub, but what is the most effective doomsday pile? I would assume it starts with meditate and something.
Sorry, I don't ever play combo except for elf storm in extended.
Whatever wins you the game is the most effective pile. The most common piles areQuote:
Originally Posted by rockout
Cost: 2U/BBB, 2-4 life, Sensei's Divining Top in play
Benefit: 5 Storm + Tendrils
[Top]
Meditate/Cruel Bargain/Infernal Contract
LED/Dark Ritual
LED/Dark Ritual
Lotus Petal
Tendrils of Agony
[Bottom]
Cost: 1U/UU, 2 life, Brainstorm in hand OR Sensei's Divining Top in play, 2 cards in hand
Benefit: 9 Storm + Tendrils
[Top]
Brainstorm/Sensei's Divining Top
LED
LED
Ill-Gotten Gains
Tendrils of Agony
[Bottom]
There have been many posts summarizing the piles in the preceding pages. You might look for posts by emidln.
--LOLOLOLOLOL
Does anyone else have a meta in which they have had a chance to test Relic?
I've been using it to a.) get around needle on Top (Dragon Stompy's Needles and also Ichorid's), and b.) as additional hate on Ichorid.
It works pretty well so far. It makes the Ichorid players around here all paranoid and shit. They don't know whether to name Top or Relic and normally go relic (obv. they've caught on that I run it in addition to my 2x 'Pates and E. Truth), leaving me free to use Top.
I've completely dropped the Bargain from my list. I've yet to encounter a situation where it's mattered. It doesn't hurt my control matchup as far as I can tell, either.
Pce,
--DC
Is there any way to combo through Oppression, or is it mandatory to grab an answer from the sideboard first?
I dont think so, probably just mystical tutor=>wipe/grip before combo-ing. Although AdN and IT=>IGG dodge it nicely.Quote:
Originally Posted by raharu
Well, IGG gets it's chain broken by Oppression, because the first LED makes you discard, and leaving you with two cards off of a single IGG :3
Yes, you have to play doomsday, have 3UR open, Brainstorm in hand or SDT in play and still 4 random cards in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by raharu
Then you can go for:
[Top]
SDT/Brainstorm
SDT
Helm of awakening
Grapeshot
Random card
[Bottom]
Or you can play doomsday and still have a hand of Brainstorm (or SDT in play)
+3 random cards and pass the turn. You win next turn with 3UR open with this one:
[Top]
Random card
SDT/Brainstorm
SDT
Helm of awakening
Grapeshot
[Bottom]
You can also obviously win with Brainfreeze if you sobstitute R with U.
There probably is something more efficient, this is just from the top of my head. ALso, it's very unlikely to happen.
I've recently built a Fetchland Tendrils list, and after some playtesting against friends, I wondered why people play a singleton Cabal Ritual main board.
I never get to play the Cabal Ritual for the threshold cost, and it is strictly inferior to Dark Ritual in a Doomsday stack.
It does serve the role of mana fixing every once in a while (to play DD or Bargain), but I'm not convinced it warrants the card a maindeck spot.
What do you think?
When the game goes a little later, I frequently use it as a single necessary piece of acceloration. Threshed C.Rit+1 other mana=doomsday+draw4 mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sae~
It just lets you explode with few cards in hand later on.
When I was testing I found that I wanted 5 ways to cast Doomsday. I already play 4 Dark RItual, so Cabal Ritual is the next best option. You are correct that you will rarely play it at threshold, althuogh that can happen sometimes (and I do tutor for it some in this capacity). If you can get away with running 5 Dark Rituals be my guest, but otherwise, I'm afraid you'll need to stick with Cabal Ritual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sae~
Further, I've been doing heavy playtesting using various protection packages. In the current control metagame, I've found that 4x Pyroblast, 4x Duress, 1-2 Orim's Chant is simply ridiculous. To fit these extra protection in I cut 1 black draw4 and 0-1 Ponder (obv the manabase gets switched around). My record vs blue-based control right now is ridiculous enough that I'll be called a liar for posting it (think winning 90% in matches).
Pyroblast is the best answer to Counterbalance available to the deck. Having 4 Duress, 4 Pyroblast and a KRosan Grip/Wipe Away assures us to being able to deal with CB game 1. Pyroblast is signficantly worse than Chant against Landstill and the combo mirror (and I naturally board that slot out against most aggro anyway) so I would keep 1-3 more Chant in the sideboard for those matchups (Pyroblast + Chant is particularly effective against Landstill, somewhere that Duress is less than ideal). I discussed testing Spell Snare with roodmistah and jegger and I like the idea, but haven't had time to fully test it yet. The configurations I want to look at are Pyroblast + Spell Snare, Pyroblast + Spell Snare + Chant, and Duress + Spell Snare + Chant. I've already done quite a bit of testing with Pyroblast + Duress + 2 Chant as well as 4 Duress, 4 Chant.
I actually use Cabal Ritual when I'm staring down a Chalice @ 1. There are times you just don't have the mana to wipe away//K. Grip it, and in these situations Cabal Ritual becomes very useful. Against Dragon Stompy, I Mystical Tutor in response (If I'm on the play, otherwise the match goes poorly barring god topdecking) and grab it. I can combo off with it and an LED or 2x for the win without ever needing to get rid of the Chalice.
Pce,
--DC
Which stack are you using to win with a Chalice@1 in play?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
You have to already have a SDT down to do it. Also, by the time I combo off, DS has already most of the time hurt themselves a bit with Ancient Tombs. Just what my testing has shown...Best move to make is this: Get a basic swamp down quickly.
Normally, it's this:
Top in play, 2B in mana pool.
LED, LED, C. Rit (1 floating), D-Day, pop LED's in response, 1UUUBBB floating.
Stack:
[top]
Meditate
LED
Petal
Tendrils
XXXXX
[bottom]
Tap Top into Meditate, 1BBB floating to draw Top, LED, Petal. Play LED and Petal, pop Petal for 2BBB floating, play Top (countered, but gives storm count +1), Tendrils for 18. I promise they have used Tomb at least once. Also, you are just using the LED in your stack to up your storm count. It has no purpose other than that. It still works...There should be a way to turn the XXXXX into a Wipe Away and move the stack around to actually get a storm count of 9 and remove the Chalice, but I don't remember it. I'd have to look at my notes.
Pce,
--DC
I might as well post the secrets of the trade. You actually have a number of ways to combo out while ignoring Chalice @ 1:
If you have Sensei's Divining Top, Meditate, Cruel Bargain, Street Wraith, or Predict in hand, you can always build a pile with Lotus Petals, Cabal Rituals, and/or LEDs to make the mana to play Tendrils as the 4th/5th card. If you have Street Wraith you can abuse Meditate/Cruel Bargain/Predict slightly better as it opens up access to Lion's Eye Diamond as a mana source. Here's a "secret" pass the turn stack that everyone should recognize:
Requires 1B and some combination of LED/Cabal Ritual with Threshold/Lotus Petal/Land so you can IGG twice and then IT for Tendrils. Depending on your list, you might have to be postboard too. Credit for this one goes to Colby Evenpence when we were testing Doomsday in SI several years ago:
[Top]
Infernal Tutor
Ill-Gotten Gains
Ill-Gotten Gains
Tendrils of Agony
__BLANK__
[Bottom]
Some discussion on Doomsday.
I took second at fnm last night, losing in the finals to a guy who had lost to ad nauseam last week and so was running 4 Teeg, 4 Mage, 4 True Believer, 4 Orims Chant and 2 Kataki between MD and side (teegs were MD) because he "wasn't gonna lose to that fucking deck again". I managed to squeeze a win game one because he didn't have a teeg, but the next two games I didn't have a snowball's chance in hell.
Regardless, some really interesting situations came up.
What stack do you make if you get chanted in response to Dday? (assume SDT in play, nothing in hand). I thought this was not winnable and scooped. Was I wrong to scoop? Is there a way to win this if you have something specific in hand?
What do you do if you're staring down a True Believer and a Teeg? What stack can incorporate a bounce spell and still kill the opponent? Is there a way to bounce both of these creatures and still win, or is there a stack that just needs to bounce one? I was trying to fit chain of vapor into the HoA/Brain Freeze stack, but I ended up fizzling on myself.
A Kataki is in play. You have an SDT in play and two lands. Assume you have everything needed in hand to go off minus one card. Do you keep paying for the top, limiting your cantripping and tutors, or let the top die hoping to find both a brainstorm/ponder and the card you need. I kept my top alive and topped EoT for about 4 turns, but did not have a shuffle effect. After the match, my opponent seemed to think it was stupid for me to keep my top alive. What would you do here?
One more thing, what the fuck do you do against earwig squad? I got Tendrils, IGG and a doomsday removed from my library after a third turn squad landed. Does this deck have ANY out?
Almost all of your problems are solved by boarding in grapeshot+HOA and slaughter pact. It gives you an amazing "pass the turn" stack, getting you around the whole chant thing, doesnt care about teeg or believer (just kill him with the first 1000 or so copies).
Do you play red? If so, pyroclasm would be just too broken for words here.
I'd also put in IGG+IT, it's another out in case mage names DDay, which honestly is the right call against you.
I'd always keep SDT alive, as it greatly increases what you can do with DDay and gives you way more dig power. You were just unlucky when you didn't pull a shuffle effect.
Pyroclasm in the sideboard lets you carve frosty his very own jessica alba lifesize...body pillow out of the afterlife's finest iceberg.Quote:
I took second at fnm last night, losing in the finals to a guy who had lost to ad nauseam last week and so was running 4 Teeg, 4 Mage, 4 True Believer, 4 Orims Chant and 2 Kataki between MD and side (teegs were MD) because he "wasn't gonna lose to that fucking deck again". I managed to squeeze a win game one because he didn't have a teeg, but the next two games I didn't have a snowball's chance in hell.
Depends on the hand and the exact build. You could try something like Brainstorm, Helm, Top, LED, Grapeshot/Tendrils. If you can survive two turns that works. It kinda/sorta works if you Brainstorm into Helm, Cycle tops and then have a red mana somehow (easier if you're playing Pyroblasts) or maybe Tendrils is possible. If you're playing Brain Freeze this is probably easier.Quote:
What stack do you make if you get chanted in response to Dday? (assume SDT in play, nothing in hand). I thought this was not winnable and scooped. Was I wrong to scoop? Is there a way to win this if you have something specific in hand?
[Top]Quote:
What do you do if you're staring down a True Believer and a Teeg? What stack can incorporate a bounce spell and still kill the opponent? Is there a way to bounce both of these creatures and still win, or is there a stack that just needs to bounce one? I was trying to fit chain of vapor into the HoA/Brain Freeze stack, but I ended up fizzling on myself.
Meditate
LED
LED
Pyroclasm
Tendrils of Agony
[Bottom]
If you can get Brain Freeze/Grapeshot in hand, Sensei's Top #1, and any the following 5 cards
Meditate
LED
LED
Echoing Truth/Pyroclasm/Slaughter Pact/Chain of Vapor
Sensei's Divining Top
you might be able to pull this off:
Cost: 4UB + Removal Spell's CMC floating when you play Doomsday + SDT in play + Win Condition in hand + 1 of Meditate/LED/LED/Removal Spell/Sensei's Divining Top in hand/play (+ Removal Spell's CMC (again) if you're a jackass and trying to win with Tendrils)
Benefit: Wins the Game, count the storm for yourself.
// Doomsday pile #1
[Top]
Meditate/BLANK
LED/BLANK
LED/BLANK
Sensei's Divining Top/BLANK
IGG
[Bottom]
The key to this is having mana production with a win condition in hand. The basic procedure is as so:
Use SDT#1 (already in play) to draw into Meditate. Meditate into everything except IGG. At this point you should roughly have 2x LED, Brain Freeze, Removal Spell, and 2x Sensei's Divining Tops in hand (you might have less if you had Top/LED as your extra card and therefore only have 2x LED + Removal Spell + SDT). Play both LEDs, play the removal spell (on True Believer), play both SDTs. Use the LEDs for black mana to draw into Ill-Gotten Gains. Play Ill-Gotten Gains returning LED, LED, Doomsday. Play both LEDs, play Doomsday breaking LEDs for UUU and BBB make your next pile like this:
//Doomsday pile #2
[Top]
Meditate
LED
LED
SDT/Removal Spell
Win Condition
[Bottom]
Top into Meditate, Meditate into LEDs + Top + Top/Removal Spell, play mana, win the game. In all honesty, if you're seeing annoying creatures, my first doomsday pile involving nuking the fuckers is infy easier.
Also, if you can get extra LED/Top instead of a win condition in hand, for an extra 1R (5URB I believe, but RRR can be generated with LED mana at that point) you can put Grapeshot in your initial doomsday pile as the removal spell and the win condition. How techy is that?
I would keep the Top. Your opponent is a jackass. Finding 1 combo piece is easier than 2 combo pieces. You'd want to use any Brainstorm/Ponder you found to dig deeper anyway, not to find the card you want.Quote:
A Kataki is in play. You have an SDT in play and two lands. Assume you have everything needed in hand to go off minus one card. Do you keep paying for the top, limiting your cantripping and tutors, or let the top die hoping to find both a brainstorm/ponder and the card you need. I kept my top alive and topped EoT for about 4 turns, but did not have a shuffle effect. After the match, my opponent seemed to think it was stupid for me to keep my top alive. What would you do here?
Your only out is to get Tendrils in hand asap. Mystical Tutors, Cantrips, etc. You can use Chant to slow your opponent down from prowling the Earwig Squad. Depending on your metagame, you might also try a faster build. You seem to have a ton of aggro so a build emphasizing red could be pretty good. Alternately, you could sideboard 3 win conditions. It's bad, but it means one Earwig Squad doesn't kill you. I take my chances and rawdog Tendrils/abuse Mystical Tutor + Top/Brainstorm.Quote:
One more thing, what the fuck do you do against earwig squad? I got Tendrils, IGG and a doomsday removed from my library after a third turn squad landed. Does this deck have ANY out?
@ rsaunder
Grapeshot can't kill True Believer and target the opponent. You choose targets for the storm copies while True Believe is still alive.
Alright. I was playing a straight UB build with brain freeze over grapeshot. I think I will splash red for clasm and grapeshot. My metagame has insane amounts of nonbasic hate though, so creating a four color manabase could be a problem.
This is what I played last night. Ideally that plains would be a scrubland.
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
2 Swamp
3 Island
1 Plains
So i need a 4c manabase to accommodate clasm (since grapeshot doesn't really matter since you just crack LED for RRR once you make your stack) that still doesn't scoop to wasteland, because I would then scoop to 3/4ths of my metagame, easy.
Something like this?
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Scrubland
1 Badlands
2 Swamp
2 Island
I've really had no problem with a manabase like:
8 U fetch
2 U. Sea
1 scrub
1 tundra
2 island
1 swamp
But I play the accell-heavy AdN version.
For your build, is 2x swamp, 2x island really necessary? I bet you could just outright cut one swamp and see just-as-favorable results. Being able to cast all your cantrips off almost all the land in the deck is key.
How on earth do you cast pyroclasm then? Off of lotus petals?Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
I just run one petal, so I would need at least one red dual, likely a volcanic since its easier to fetch than badlands.
I suppose I could cut a swamp. I'm not sure what I would run there though, maybe another cabal ritual since I'm just running one of those as well. I kind of like 18 lands though. I find I rarely get mana screwed or flooded, and the only times I do is because of bad mulliganing, not the deck itself.
I don't run clasm in the board, my meta rarely requires it. Besides, I can generally go off before more than one piece of creature-based disruption hits the table. It's not as consistant as DDay-only builds, but it sure is fast and fun to play*.
In my fully-DDay version of the deck, I opted to run 2 extra petals as my extra accell slots. They're far better than extra C. rits, as they manafix. This might be especially important for you in a waste-heavy meta.
*My current build of AdN+DDay FT. It's a little land-light, but I don't see much wasteland where I play. Go -1 duress, +1 island for a metaunlike mine maybe?
4 Brainstorm
4 SDT
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Chant
4 Duress
1 Wipe
1 DDay
1 Meditate
1 IGG
1 AdN
1 Tendrils
4 D.Rit
4 LED
4 Petal
3 Chrom Mox
3 C. rit
8 U fetch
2 U. Sea
1 island
1 tundra
1 scrub
1 swamp
I don't know, I'm more of the opinion that a FT deck should either be AdN or DDAY, and that a mix of the two doesn't get the best of both worlds.
AdN is faster, but also easier to hate. Doomsday only builds are slower, though more consistent and play through hate much better.
I opted for a doomsday list since my meta has a lot of wastelands and a non negligible number of chalices. I find that I don't often have problems with chalice, either going off first, or being able to play through it. However, I would not feel comfortable playing AdN in this situation, since chalice makes it much harder for them to go off.
If I were to play Ad Nauseam, I would play this list, or something very close to it, with it being no coincidence that this is a European list.
5-8) Federico Bonadè - Fetchland Tendrils w/ Ad Nauseam
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Brainstorm
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Ponder
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Orim's Chant
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Rushing River
3 Chrome Mox
1 Pact of Negation
2 Ad Nauseam
SIDE
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Serenity
3 Duress
1 Brain Freeze
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wipe Away