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I've been putting lots of thought and testing into a progressive LS build, lately.
[stressing the black splash, cutting Wrath and Humility etc..]
My first notable reward with it was a top8 finish at the Mercadiade, Hamburg, Germany (118 players).
Here's my REPORT, including an explanation of those not so common choices.
Discuss!
@Klaus: First off, congratulations on the finish. I love how everyone seems to quote Konsultant in their tournament reports on how to optimally side board and play various matches. Why did you board out a single vindicate in the goyf sligh match up? From my testing, keeping vindicate and going into LD mode when I can is the best strategy. That and stringing CA off multiple standstills.
Do you miss runed halo out of the board in some match ups? How was Tidehollow Sculler? I didn't notice if you boarded him in at all.
It looks like Jace took your Eternal dragon slot. I definitely am going to have to test that. I feel Eternal Dragon is just a little too clunky sometimes. Jace seemed to run really well in your build.
My general opinion is run the 4 blast effects and drop the scullers. Sculler isn't as good as meddling mage and you seemed to face a lot of aggro loam where blast effects are pretty good. Have you tested chainer's edict in the smother/edict slot. I know instant speed is tech, but CA later in the game is sometimes better. Also, the random one wrath out of the board doesn't seem worth it. You have more than enough removal to make a random wrath almost overkill.
Other than that, it looks pretty solid. It seems like a lot of builds are shifting away from counterspell and going with more spell snare action which is definitely better.
That list looks completely baller, and the pseudo-transformational sideboard (Meddling Magi, Scullers -> Fish) is awesome. I really can't say there's anything about that list that seems weak. Maybe 2 Wraths in the sideboard just in case (Goblins, other Big Scary Aggro, maybe could help the Aggro Loam match), but aside from that, it looks great.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
He boarded them in quite a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
Would you think that Runed Halos would have helped at all? Naming Terravore is tech :3 Thoughts?
Well played, sir! I love the list and theory!Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
I may be off-base here, because I've never actually played with a Landstill deck, but I was wondering if anyone uses a green splash in this deck? The reason is the card Knight of the Reliquary, which is coming out in Conflux.
Here's a link: http://cdn1.libsyn.com/themagicsock/...906a7b210e6a34
I seem to remember seeing someone who ran green for Life from the Loam, and I was thinking that KotR could work pretty well in a Landstill deck, as long as there were enough cards to sac to him. KotR provides land tutoring, and this seems like a deck that could abuse that... Also, he doubles as a finisher, and seems to me like he could do this well enough to provide the main win condition for a UWg version of this deck...
Let me know if anyone has any thoughts about this. I'm prepared to believe I'm a little off-base, but I'm trying to find a good home to use that card in, so I thought I'd see what folks thought of it.:wink:
My opinion is that you can't really run creatures in Landstill unless it's a late game win condition, mana source or a threat that ends the game in 3 turns/swings. So the only creatures I would ever consider for this deck are Exalted Angel, Tarmogoyf and Ajani Goldmane (Avatar token).Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght
I wouldn't say that card is bad, but in Landstill, it is. In Landstill, having creatures in the deck is bad because it makes removal good against you. I have always found the point of Landstill to be able to make your part of your opponent's deck dead against yours. This is why removing Nevinyrral's Disk, Crucible of Worlds, and boarding out Humilities makes sense. But that's Artifact/Enchantment hate; creature is always in the maindeck as long as that deck is a non-combo deck.
So if you were to run Green, Tarmogoyf is the way to go. Nantuko Monastery, Krosan Grips and Pernicious Deed should also be heavily considered.
Although a good deck for the Knight would be Death and Taxes. Being able to Tutor up Wastelands, Dust Bowls, Outposts, Maze of Ith and Monasteries just seems really cool.
@rockout:
The only worthy target to hit would've been Vortex. Cutting down on BW spells allowed me to fetch for basic Islands with a smaller chance to get color screwed, while being less vulnerable to PoP.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
I didn't miss Halo a bit, even though I used to be a fan back in the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
Sculler performs better against combo (Thoughtseize w/o lifeloss +clock!), better against control (Halo isn't too super here anyway) and he supports the fishy transformational plan that can catch an opponent off guard.
Also, don't forget that other than in the case of Halo, you actually get to see the opponent's hand, creating a neat synergy with following Mages.
As a matter of fact, Sculler is the addition I'm most fond of.
For me, Jace used to be subpar in too many games when I still ran the Wrath+Humility package. With all that spot removal though, he tends to win the game almost 50% of the time, if he sticks. I even considered the 3rd copy but dropped the idea for more speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
Speed rules. Many games get decided by turn 3-4, which is the general theory behind Speedstill. This is why I'm hesitant to add cards that focus more on the lategame and are subpar in the early game.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
I don't worry too much about the lategame anyway. Else wins if she sticks, period.
That being said, I might still try it as a random one off in one D. Edict slot. Heh.
The "random" SB Wrath was a last minute decision. A friend informed me there were tons of Faeries, Merfolk at the Extended event the day before so I figured it might be worth the inclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
Being a one-off doesn't make it random however it's simply the dedicated creature hate slot #11.
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Klaus
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@Klaus: All solid points, thank you. I definitely understand wanting to be proactive with Sculler. It seems like a good plan. To the testing field I go. In my own list, I've been looking for a halo replacement and a eternal dragon replacement. What other match ups would you board in sculler? I know we have to be proactive against decks that have a better late game than list like survival and aggro loam. He also seems to house combo because once you know their hand there's a really good chance you can pull the W.
"I didn't miss Halo a bit, even though I used to be a fan back in the day.
Sculler performs better against combo (Thoughtseize w/o lifeloss +clock!), better against control (Halo isn't too super here anyway) and he supports the fishy transformational plan that can catch an opponent off guard. Also, don't forget that other than in the case of Halo, you actually get to see the opponent's hand, creating a neat synergy with following Mages."
Not really sure if your correct on this. Probably Runed Halo is as good as Runed Halo against control, because both can easily be taken away. Knowing your hand of your opponent maybe one reason to play Sculler and the synenergy with Meddling Mage might be good, I agree on that. But both cards can be taken away easily. Control will have enough cards to get rid of one of the two and destroy the other one.
Will you never get problems casting Sculler removing a card hoping that your opponent does not get a good topdeck? Your only counter having 0 mana is Force of Will.
Thoughtseize means that you have probably more mana open for counters cannot be removed to gain back the card and it's drawback does not really matter against ToA, because most of the times Storm 9-10 does not make a real difference.
It's just my opinion.
Klaus..
Your deck is close to my decklist in some respects. Even the card counts. Your counter package of 4 fow, 3 stifle, 2 Cs, is exactly what I use. The sideboard choices are also VERY similar. But looking it over, there are some big differences in strategy.
Do you ever miss crucible for the recurring wasteland?
Looking through it, it is clear that you are running Jace in place of where I use fact.. I have not yet really played much with Jace. So I want to ask a broad a question among Landstill players...
Jace or Fact ???? I'm kinda thinking Jace. I mean, its a planeswalker. And I agree with Klaus. Planeswalkers are BROKEN. Plus it costs one mana less. Any opinions? Jace may not be as good in my deck. I run city of traitors and mox diamond which drop elspeth and facts very quickly. The double blue on Jace could be an issue, as sometimes I struggle with counterspell.
Screw it, I'm going to post my decklist for discussion.
To be blatantly honest. I don't like Jace a whole lot. When I FoF, I want the answer right then and there. And FoFing in response to a spell is a good way to get 4 cards if you flip a force. I don't like my opponent to be able to kill my draw engine by killing Jace. However, like I said many pages ago, being comfortable with Jace is a playstyle choice. If you want to constantly draw cards versus draw them all at once, it's up to the player. One isn't necessarily better than the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viscosity
The soup nazi says,"no deck for you!"
Why is jace better if you dont run humility?
Klaus will you add path to exile instead of diabolic edict or smother?
Why 2 elspeth? why is your purpose runing 2, win condition or protection?
Perhaps it isn't better I haven't really thought about it much. I'll proxy Jace for my FoF and find out. I think FoF will win out though, in my build.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frid
have you played with Elspeth? It it more than just a kill condition you hope to draw eventually. It is a bomb early game too. Elspeth is always good and once in play, the focus of your opponent is to remove it or die. I've even considered running 3. It serves as a very strong stabilizer and also as a kill condition. It is nice sometimes for landstill games not to last forever. Elspeth can be a control card, or a very fast clock. I often begin swinging in with a 5/5 flying mishra immediately. It is the most powerful single card in the deck and quite difficult to remove. Plus it is fun to play.
Just read Klaus and my tournament reports. They often read like this:
"My elspeth stays in play and carries to quick win."
"he manages to get his own elspeth into play, I lose"
"we spend the majority of the game focused around him trying to remove my Elspeth"
It wasn't until I played against Elspeth that I realized how annoying she is.
@Frid:
Path to Exile will be tested as a 2-of. Most likely in the Edict Slot. Who knows, I might replace the remaining D. Edict with a "Cruel" one.
@"Sculler":
To everyone who plays a heavy black splash: Test that dude. He's so good, he's almost maindeckable. You're correct when you say he's easily removable (at least in theory), but:
G2 your smart opponents will have boarded out most of their creature hate. AND: the only Artifacts they got to see G1 should be activated Factories and EE (even Grip sucks against those). Hell even IF they remove Sculler, they invested mana and a spell, while you may have beaten for 2 or more AND had them play with fewer cards in the meantime.
I don't defend that choice, because I feel I need to prove anything, it's just that I think he's heavily underrated. Heck. Mesmeric Fiend saw serious Vintage play for a long time and he's 1/1!
@FoF VS Jace. Imo it doesn't depend on your play style at all, which one's better. It's a matter of the environment you play him in (deck configuration and meta).
In regards to Jace vs. FOF, it really depends on the build of your deck and what you are trying to accomplish. Like in my build, with the Scepters and Chants, FOF is strictly better because I'm usually looking for one card in the top 5, whereas it would take me several turns with Jace to find the other pair of my Scepter combo. I also like FOF due to the fact that it gives a test to you opponent, which they usually fail because they have no knowledge of your hand. FOFing in response to things gives your opponent the biggest chances to screw up the piles and to overload you with cards because they don't know you already have the answer you need.
However, I personally haven't tested with Jace, but I don't know how comfortable I would be with tapping out on turn 3 to draw one card. I agree with the post above that he is pretty dependent on the metagame you expect to see. I play in a very aggressive metagame with all sorts of crap aggro and Thresh that always sneak in a Mongoose turn 1 to kill a would be Jace. I will not say that he is incorrect because I haven't played with him, but I would just stick with what I am positive works, which is FOF.
That is exactly what I noticed. My co-worker has been playing around with various landstill decks but by and large I still have been able to beat him by outplaying him. Whether it was baiting a cb flip, slow playing creatures with him quickly using wrath or even the mis-assessment of what is or is not overly relevant to counter.Quote:
It wasn't until I played against Elspeth that I realized how annoying she is.
However, now that he is playing with 2 Elspeth the decks power is minimizing his play mistakes. She protects herself and creates win conditions via an army or pumping a token up. Even making a factory fly with moat out and no blockers. When she lands on the table at first it seems annoying but that quickly evaporates into a threat with a tangible time line to be answered.
I did a lot of playtesting tonight and I can give another solid reason why I like FoF.... Counterbalance. I played a lot of games vs a deck similar to Its the Fear. He would drop CB and I'd let it hit. Then start playing into it with WoG, Elspeth, Decree, FoF. And eventually I'd drop an EE for 2 (spending 4 mana to do so). GG counterbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiiMagic
It is actually staggering how many people do not understand that you can manipulate EE in this fashion... I crush a lot of threshold players just b/c they cannot hit EE w/ cc of 3+ consistently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viscosity
Well i havent played elspeth yet thats true i have to give her a chance.
How is it suposed to be played? Agains aggro i would play her fast and start creating one or two creatures and try to race them with it + counters and removal. Agains control wait a bit more with a counter backup i supose.
I have tested a bit the vindicates and i love them, i never played them becouse i used to play UW cunning landstill with light B splash (extirpate and slaughter pact). I stopped playing it becouse i felt like i needed more non creature removal, that is when you miss pernicious, seems like vindicate is what the deck needed.
Can i ask why did you remove humility when you add vindicate? it was a card i wanted to see agains every aggro and aggro control matchup
The problem with Humility isn't that Humility isn't good enough, in fact i've won tournaments because of it, the problem is Krosan Grip. You can't afford to have Grip target's it give's anybody running Grip a huge advantage over you. I've even given up on Crucible whitch was a long time staple of mine just because of Krosan Grip. Crucible is still feasable but I wouldn't run it without Academy Ruins at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frid
It wasn't Vindicate that replaced Humility it was the Plainswalkers that replaced Humility. The Vindicate's replaced Disenchant/Wish as a more versatile removal spell.
Humility is still viable but I would run it in the SB and only board it in if you don't think your opponent has Grip. Perhaps if you go to game 3 I might try sneaking them in against Thresh.
Can you post an updated list of your deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by konsultant
I won the last 2 events I entered with the exact list that is posted a few pages back. Even with only losing one round in 2 events I have a couple tweaks in mind but I'm saving them for the GP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish_Mafia
That s exactly why I don't run Humility. A Gripped crucible is one thing, but a gripped humility means they now swing at you with their critters.. ouch! Humility is very strong against some matches, but you become dependent on it sticking in play. I'd much rather clear the board and spot remove subsequent threats. I also agree that vindicate is just better than cunning wish. I played a lot of cunning with LS and it is just too damn slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by konsultant
On the crucible; I love them. My deck has more synergy with crucible though, due to mox diamond, city of traitors, and academy. 2nd turn crucible is just good, especially with a wasteland...
They grip crucible -- I use academy to get it back. They must kill both academy and crucible at once, but often by the time that can be pulled off, I draw into another crucible, and pull academy back into play. Krosan grip has a hard time handling it.
yes. I actually didn't even think about it until someone pointed it out in a tournament a while back. now it is my favorite removal. I find casting cost to be quite significant in the current meta. The ability to manipulate EEs casting cost while keeping the removal targets what you want, is VERY powerful. Plus the X makes you able to grab it with tolaria west, etc..Quote:
Originally Posted by thefreakaccident
EE is extremely useful.
For anyone who didn't get it: if you cast EE using 2 blue, one white, and one colorless.. The converted casting cost is "4" but it blows up everything that costs "2". GG counterbalance
:-( >sniff< >sniff<Quote:
Originally Posted by konsultant
My tweak was running tombstalker as another win condition. Cats out of the bag.
Does the deck really need more win conditions? I feel like with 3-4 Factory, 1-3 DoJ, 0-2 Eternal Dragon and 0-2 Elspeth, there's alot of good options that all add something in addition to being threats (ie the ability to produce mana, cycle when not needed as threats or in addition). I guess Espeth doesn't really do much other than be a threat, it can draw attention away from damaging the LS player though, I suppose people aiming burn at Tombstalker does this too though.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
It would just seem like the more win cons you add to the deck the more it moves toward being agro-control, rather than a mid-late game, control deck.
Ever since grip was printed I never seem to really like Humility all that much either. I mean aggro-control players can just time walk you right out of the game if they nail your Humility with Krosan Grip in response to you playing standstill. Especially when they already have active threats on the field. Humility is only a proactive sweeper when you have manlands and decree of justice at the forefront. Unfortunately, this proactive sweeper strategy via Humility is on a thin rope when Krosan Grip suddenly becomes involved.
You won't fall into the same trap as easily with Vindicates opening more avenues for you to play standstill. Vindicates is quite good against just about anything including aggro-control variants.
You can always play Humilities maindeck and then board them out post board. Humilities are only in the maindeck to steal games, so boarding them out makes sense.
It's ok Bardo. I knew it was going to get deleted. I just had to go for it.
When I used to play Humility, I was too focused on sticking it then starting my game. I would dig, dig, dig solely to find and resolve Humility because it was the end all game breaker that I wanted. I remember going back to the drawing board when my Humility got EOT'd gripped with a dreadnought on the board. Now that I've played with vindicate, I can't see myself going back to Humility unless it's out of the board as a two of.
I guess ive never had the krosan grip time walk problem. I usually solve the threats in play then play the soft lock on creatures if you will.
Yea I tend to do the same with Humility. After resolution I still work on controlling the board as much as possible, Humility just makes controlling it alot easier, making DoJs into instant speed Wrath of Gods + cantrip, and with Factorys owning the red zone. It seems like a mistake to rely on it too much though, like to drop a Standstill if my opponent has Humilitied 1/1s and 2G available, post board that seems like asking for trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Some of the match ups that its especially good against don't even have Krosan Grip, like Merfolk or Rb Goblins. Or like in Rgb Goblins, post board they have Engineered Plague in addition to Humility to worry about so that's 5-6 threats to deal with with 3-4 answers; and their draw engine sends their Grips to the bottom of the library, while mine will be getting them to hand.
I admit though that Humility may be a crutch of sorts that with more time playing the deck I will find its not really a card that's pulling its weight, but so far I've always been pleased with a UWb Humility build.
I'm playing Vindicate as well though, I agree that most of the time I was Wishing for a Disenchant effect, so Vindicate covers that and much more, it seems like a very good replacement.
Played a 4 round swiss legacy event tonight and split for first with UW landstill again.
Round one: Aggro Loam 2-1
Round two: Survival madness 2-0
Round three: Vial Goblins 2-1
Round four: Its The Fear - split for first (favor to my deck but we were tired)
Both losses were due to bad mana draws that I should have mulled. Live and learn. So far in the events, the deck has placed 1st, 4th, 1st. With the 4th place being directly related to player error.
Ok guys, first time poster, but long time reader on this thread. I've been playing U/W or U/W/b Landstill for about 8 months now, and have competed in several small (15-20 ppl), but very competitive tourneys (NoVa crowd). I've done as best as third, and here is my current list.
Land:
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted delta
4x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
3x Island
2x Plains
1x Dustbowl
1x Tolaria West
1x Academy Ruins
4x Mishra's Factory
Body:
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
4x Counterspell
3x Fact or Fiction
2x Humility
2x Wrath of God
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Sensei's Diving Top
Win:
2x Decree of Justice
2x Elspeth, Knight Errant
Sideboard:
4x Counterbalance
4x Meddling Mage
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Hydroblast
2x Engineered Plague
Card choices worth noting: I agree with a lot of the discussion in the 4-color Landstill forum about the strengths of running Top maindeck and CB in the board. As a first turn drop Top makes Standstill so much better. It ensures land drops, and along with fetches, helps your early draws. Counterbalance makes our best matchups worse and or worst matchups better. Sounds like it deserves a sideboard slot to me.
Questions: How good is Vindicate? Is it necessary to play Vindicate if I run Counter-Top? Is Wasteland just more powerful than Dust Bowl? If so, should I play Crucible?
Also, do you think that it is worth playing Divert in the sideboard? It destroys both Team America and ANT. It also helps against burn.
nice list!
I tested vindicate tonight and prefered to keep it out of MY deck. I love crucible.. I play two and it seems just right. I also like EE. If you raised the EE count to 3, and crucible to 2, you'd be seeing alot more recurring EEs.
As far as vinidicate to go with counterbalance, just think about what decks you put the Cb in against, do they have bombs that cost 3 or is it more about countering 1s and 2s?
Divert is nice. I played 2 on my board for a while. I don't think it deserves a slot though as it is very condtional, both on the decks that it playss against as well as pulling it off. You are diverting chant/duress right? because it does not work against tendrils.
Duress can't be diverted either, except in a game with 3+ people, its target opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viscosity
Know that Thoughtseize can, though, and some combo builds will be playing it over Duress still (even ANT) because it can pull Hate-Bears.Quote:
Originally Posted by from Cairo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viscosity
In the combo matchup I would hit Chant. Divert is also very good against Team America. Misdirecting a Thoughtseize or Sinkhole can pretty much be game over for them.
I board in Counterbalance against ANT, Burn, Goyf-Sligh, and Threshold. It almost single handedly fixes those match-ups without me having to devote space to cards that are more limited in scope (read: Ajani).
good point :eek: . The divert is very MEh against ANT then. They can simply duress your FoW, cast AN, and win. I've used it on my board, and I had a couple spectacular plays with it, BUt I felt that spellsnare would of come in more often and been just as useful. And I don't even like spellsnare that much on my board.Quote:
Originally Posted by from Cairo
Divert shines in the matchup vs black. Sinkhole or Hymn can be GG. also, it is useful in counter wars. I think that it is a reasonable choice and that each person should decide to use it or not depending on their meta.
I have trouble with the 15 card sideboard slots not being enough, haha. In fact, that is where my deck needs the most improvement. I'm leaning toward my third color being black. It was red for a while, but I'm liking the engineered plagues on my board right now; Merfolk, Gobby, Elf, Sliver, Ichorid.
The other option is using green for grip, arg! i can't figure out my board!
It changes daily...
What do you guys think of this list? I'm squeezing 2 tops into the MD.
Card----------------------Opponent Deck
3 Counterbalance----------combo, burn, loam, etc.
3 tormod's crypt-----------loam, ichorid, survival, etc.
3 Chalice------------------combo, burn, etc.
3 Meddling Mage-----------combo, loam, LOTS of DECKS
3 Krosan Grip--------------Counterbalance.deck, Pithing Needle, dreadnought, survival
I think that's a solid board. The only thing missing is blue blasts. Even in 3 color, blood moon effects can cripple you and being able to fetch an island with a blast in hand is very strong.