[Deck] The Rock

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Originally Posted by Kich867

Lingering Souls usually accompanies Stoneforge Mystic. However, the biggest purpose for it is that it's flexible and it's a lot of dudes at once.

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So I tried to make the LSouls and Mystics work, but it failed miserably. I played a little tournament this weekend, and it sucked bad... Everytime I played Mystic it would meet removal of some sort. There was no way I could connect the equipment with LSouls. Even if Mystic would hit the board, the equipment would get discarded out of my hand. I'm planning to play the GSZ/ LSouls again, because it felt much better: it also looks much more suited in my meta (which is a weird brew of grindy- and combo-matchups)

Perhaps I'm playing it all wrong, but I just felt to slow. I do however agree LSouls can help a lot in those grindy matchups: flying tokens just are so hard to battle against (especially when you're playing discard after discard or have a Lily online). It is also my first set of cards to side out against combo. So I see the purpose and uses of LSouls, but I get more and more convinced to use it alongside GSZ.

So what's the latest consensus on the removal package now as far as StP, Abupt Decay, Pulse/Vindicate? Sounds like from the last few weeks people are maybe stepping away from StP a little and feeling like they need more from Pulse/Vindicate? I'm still running a 4/4/2 split but I do feel like it's a couple too many. Me dilemma is what would I replace them with?

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Originally Posted by dballard

So what's the latest consensus on the removal package now as far as StP, Abupt Decay, Pulse/Vindicate? Sounds like from the last few weeks people are maybe stepping away from StP a little and feeling like they need more from Pulse/Vindicate? I'm still running a 4/4/2 split but I do feel like it's a couple too many. Me dilemma is what would I replace them with?

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That's really way too many, we have Bob and Library, having a removal spell shouldn't be terribly hard to find. I'm considering going down to 7, but I currently run 8 which I feel is way too much. 3/3/1 of Plow / Decay / Pulse is what I'll likely do.

I'd rather have a little more disruption or another threat than another removal spell. Though I also run Liliana, whom should be counted as somewhat of a removal spell, I think I'm packing 3 of her so really, it's more 3/3/3/1 removal.

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

good morning guys

i thought about posting my recent list, and i would need some feedback maybe, and your thoughts on it, specially on the sideboar

SIDEBOARD

3 extirpate
2 golgari charm
1 darkblast
1 abrupt decay
1 pernicious deed
2 gaddock teeg
3 tidehollow sculler / hymn to tourach (leaning towards sculler, specially vs. combo)
2 pithing needle / kitchen finks / timely reinforcements (not sure what to pick, would probably depend on the expected meta... miracles/esperblade vs. jund/rug/burn)

so guys hammer me with your comments and critique :P, and thanks in advance

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1) With Bobs, Thoughtseizes, AND such a painful mana-base, you need maindeck lifegain somewhere in your starting 60. It's just reality. I strongly suggest Stoneforge Mystic + Jitte/Batterskull. Burn/Zoo is already a bad matchup, the shock-lands will make it nigh unwinnable. Mystic/Jitte/Batterskull will go a long ways towards evening up the odds and gaining back some life. I realize you have tried this and if I remember rightly, it didn't work well for you. If that is the case, I think you should maindeck 2+ kitchen finks. They are fantastic at combating aggro and do a lot of work defensively. Offensively, they aren't bad either. They also go really well with the next point...

2) Cabal Therapy is the clear winner over Inquisition of Kozilek if you are using Kitchen Finks maindeck. Yes it makes your Finks into a Goblin Piker, and no it isn't a big deal because you are gaining lots of value with the persist (lifegain, double up on hand disruption.) You are simply complementing Thoughtseize anyways, which you are already playing 4 of. If you somehow wanted to work in Lingering Souls AND Kitchen Finks, I think at that point you need to evaluate a possible 3rd Cabal Therapy (but don't cut any Thoughtseizes, they are just too important against combo. Wish I had 4 myself...)

3) I'm a huge fan of Tidehollow Sculler, most folks know this already. I play 2 in the main and I wish I could make it 3, but there isn't enough room. I also wish I could put 2 in the board, but again, there just isn't room. Whenever I draw it, I love it. Its one of those cards that I've been associated with at my local shop, and I've done well with it. I think playing 2 somewhere in the 75 is correct, and if you have 3 spots it's not bad to play 3. I like it better than Hymn to Tourach, but I understand where Hymn can be better (against tempo decks and burn.)

4) If you decide to go for Stoneforge Mystic + equips...Vampire Nighthawk is just straight up bad-ass, in such a good way. At that point you are teetering towards playing Deadguy Ale, which isn't a bad thing at all. I play a similar plan to Deadguy Ale, the green is just for better threats and removal. It's another source of lifegain, blocks Griselbrand, and equips like a champ.

5) Golgari Charm and Darkblast do essentially the same thing: deal with multiple little dudes. Charm is better against Maverick (moms), Darkblast is better against Lingering Souls/Snapcaster Mage/etc because it is always available (and it makes your Knights/Goyfs BETTER with the dredging.) I would play one or the other, but not both. I think the Charms, overall, are a more flexible option.

6) If you don't see any Affinity in your area, consider using Ethersworn Canonist in your sideboard. It hoses cascade (Bloodbraid Elf, Shardless Agent) and keeps Storm decks honest. It even has some value against burn, slowing them down long enough to get a lifegain plan moving. If they bolt Canonist, great. That's one less bolt to the face. It's a really great option that most folks don't think about anymore. I wouldn't leave home without them (2 in my sideboard.)

Phew...I think that's enough to be getting with, don't you think? I hope it was helpful. I've been in your shoes, playing shocklands instead of real dual lands. It's tough, but doable. I ended up using 4 maindeck Kitchen Finks and going a semi-Pox avenue with Smallpox, Life from the Loam, and Raven's Crime. It's a different deck, but potentially good.

Good luck!

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Originally Posted by Kich867

That's really way too many, we have Bob and Library, having a removal spell shouldn't be terribly hard to find. I'm considering going down to 7, but I currently run 8 which I feel is way too much. 3/3/1 of Plow / Decay / Pulse is what I'll likely do.

I'd rather have a little more disruption or another threat than another removal spell. Though I also run Liliana, whom should be counted as somewhat of a removal spell, I think I'm packing 3 of her so really, it's more 3/3/3/1 removal.

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Very similar here:

4x StP
3x Decay
2x Liliana
1x Vindicate (sideboard)

9 in the main, 10 total

StP will always be tops in my book, simply because it's easier to cast against decks using Wasteland against you and it hits *anything* that doesn't have shroud/hexproof. Decay is amazing, but I often find that it falls short because the format has shifted slightly to using more 4+ mana threats BECAUSE of Decay. Still worth 3 slots, but not 4. Vindicate is my 4th Decay placeholder because I want a way to deal with planeswalkers outside of attacking them. I traded away all of my Pulses, which I regret, but I do like that Vindicate can hit lands on occasion. It can act like a 5th Wasteland, which can be quite good against some decks. Liliana pulls so much weight that I don't mind missing the maindeck Vindicate or the 4th Decay. If I could squeeze in a 3rd, I would.

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Originally Posted by Chatto

So I tried to make the LSouls and Mystics work, but it failed miserably. I played a little tournament this weekend, and it sucked bad... Everytime I played Mystic it would meet removal of some sort. There was no way I could connect the equipment with LSouls. Even if Mystic would hit the board, the equipment would get discarded out of my hand. I'm planning to play the GSZ/ LSouls again, because it felt much better: it also looks much more suited in my meta (which is a weird brew of grindy- and combo-matchups)

Perhaps I'm playing it all wrong, but I just felt to slow. I do however agree LSouls can help a lot in those grindy matchups: flying tokens just are so hard to battle against (especially when you're playing discard after discard or have a Lily online). It is also my first set of cards to side out against combo. So I see the purpose and uses of LSouls, but I get more and more convinced to use it alongside GSZ.

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I had the same issue! I had FIVE draws on that day and never played LSouls in Junk after that.

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My removal has been 4 StP, 3 Abrupt Decay but I play a removal light build. I'm testing -1 StP, +1 Pulse.

I really want another Pulse, but with all the combo in the format, like I said, I can't really cut hand disruption.

Souls is still very good against a ton of decks. I may try Kor-Haven in the Maze slot though, it does what I want it to do and keeps them tapped. The mana might be an issue, but we'll see.

-Matt

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...7&iddeck=75967

Second place in a GPT with 43 players.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...7&iddeck=75967

Second place in a GPT with 43 players.

-Matt

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it is rather intresting that the dark horizon builds are doin pretty well right now. what do you guys think about that?

Such a random sideboard...

I think in a combo/control meta, Dark Horizons build can do very well as it's geared more toward the traditional "rip apart your hand, then lay a fatty" plan than other builds are. I think that if your meta has grindy decks, or decks that are threat-lite, Dark Horizons won't be quite as strong.

EDIT: 2nd place out of 64 players in a Euro tourney: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10421&iddeck=76001. This build opts for a GSZ-toolbox approach. I think the Dark Horizons, GSZ, and SFM/Souls builds can all do well in the right meta.

We could develop a dark horizons that shifts toward grindy matches post sb - or the opposite.
What do you think? could it be viable?

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

EDIT: 2nd place out of 64 players in a Euro tourney: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10421&iddeck=76001. This build opts for a GSZ-toolbox approach. I think the Dark Horizons, GSZ, and SFM/Souls builds can all do well in the right meta.

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Interesting: no StP in the main, something I would not consider.

Sorry I'm a little confused, what constitutes Dark Horizons, because I look at that list and see no Horizon Canopy's. It looks like a rock list to me.

Although it has since ditched Horizon Canopy, the name still applies to any deck running the classic creature suite, running Hymn to Tourach, no GSZ/SFM/Souls, and running Sensei's Divining Top; basically the way Rock was built in 2009/10.

EDIT: An example of Dark Horizons in 2011: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=5697&iddeck=41235 and http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=5481&iddeck=39679. Obviously, there was no Abrupt Decay, DRS, or Liliana of the Veil back then, but you see the basic structure of the deck. Dark Horizons 2013 lists don't vary that much from what was run years ago.

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Originally Posted by Kich867

Sorry I'm a little confused, what constitutes Dark Horizons, because I look at that list and see no Horizon Canopy's. It looks like a rock list to me.

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dark horizons is one of the many the rock variations. It's purpose is to achieve tempo advantage and resource denial (hence vindicate, hymn, gerrard's veredict and mox), and attempting to build a momentun and end the game fast with cheap but powerful creatures.

So a very good friend of mine who judges and has played U/W since Mental misstep were testing/talking about sideboards for the expected metagame of a large tournament.

My initial sideboard was this:

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Golgari Charm

We talked about his Esperblade sideboard and talked about how Humility is super good with Lingering Souls, just as Humility was with Thopterbalance back in the day. Humility also wrecks Sneak and Show.

If we're the deck playing Lingering Souls, Humility becomes a backbreaker in certain creature-based matchups, like Maverick, Jund, Tribal, etc. It also serves awesome duty against Sneak and Show. It slows out clock, but not automatically losing is a good thing.

He also noted that Gaddock Teeg was something I basically want infinite copies of. He suggested upping the slots in the board to 3. It's a card that when you want it, you want it all day long. I kind of agree with this, but with 3 GSZ, we'll see.

Golgari Charm is good against the Souls mirror and serves double duty against Helm and against Elves, Supreme Verdict, etc. Zealous is BETTER in the Souls mirror specifically, so I'll run the 1/1 split again.

Elspeth is there as the go-big slots against Esper and Jund. You need something like their Jace that sets you apart. Elspeth is bonkers, but so is Garruk Relentless. But, Elspeth is heartier against Punishing Fires.




2 Surgical Extraction is doing much against actual graveyard based decks, as much as I'd like it to. It has slim play against Combo decks, but as a graveyard slot, it's not really a thing. There's little different between T0 gravehate and T1 gravehate. We have Ooze and DRS, but those are slower, particular answers that need time to set up. You're not going to win against LED Dredge with a DRS. Grafdigger's Cage totally destroys any graveyard based deck, and Spellbomb can empty the graveyard until you have time to get an Ooze or DRS up and running.

Deed is still very relevant against a large portion of the meta, so we didn't change it.

With Pithing Needle, it was my slot against Sensei's Divining Top when Miracles was THE deck for a while. Needle shuttered their deck, but now that Esper is back and Helm sees equal-ish amounts of play, I needed a card against both decks. Needle against Esper is relatively bad, since there's too many targets to hit. So, Stony Silence mucks the Helm deck by hitting Top, EE, Helm, etc., and it hits the Equipment and EE in Esperblade, which makes it a bit better of a matchup. Also, it has marginal value against Storm's artifact-based acceleration, and if some random shows up with Affinity, welcome to value-town. Population: you.

Tracker is still great in the creature matchups.

So, here's the board I'm like to run at Seattle, assuming no meta shifts:

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Golgari Charm
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Elspeth, KE
1 Sigarda or Humility
2 Stony Silence
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Duress

It's a lot of random 1-of's, but they overlap in many, many matchups.

-Matt

Updated.

I think the rising popularity has made double golgari charm more important than the golgari/zealous split.

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Originally Posted by Claymore

I think the rising popularity has made double golgari charm more important than the golgari/zealous split.

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Popularity of RIP/Helm, you mean?

-Matt