[Deck] Goblins

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- Oring is decent. But a good Sneakshow player will run stifles or make awsome plays like my opponent. And its bad, if you need 2 more hate cards to deal with that play. Confusion in the ranks does nearly nothing against helm-combo, wich i think is a rough matchup. You cannot play around Terminus AND race the combo. Oblivion Ring gives you some chances there but: I found as i played agains miracle-helm the right plan is punch him down as fast as you can. If this is your plan Orings are not necessary (but still very good).
I think i would change them for confusion in the ranks. Maybe playing 3 REB and 2 Confusion to have 1 mor SB card against energy field. (btw, never counter enery field, always destroy it. If your opponent counters a card goes in his grave and the field is away)

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Asgar, thanks for the great writeup. Some questions/comments:

1. vs High Tide in Round 2, do you think that Thalia and/or Rest in Peace could have helped you vs them?

2. vs SneakShow in the quarterfinals, do you think that Karakas could have helped you? Was it a card availability issue?

3. Regarding the Sneak Attack/Show and Tell matchup, I think there could be some more discussion. First of all, there are two lines of attack they have:
i. Show and Tell
ii. Sneak Attack

Then there are three cards than I think they are likely to put into play:
a. Omnipresence
b. Griselbrand
c. Emrakul

We have the following cards that can help us vs them:
Oblivion Ring: i, a, 1/2 b, c, 1/2 ii
Confusion in the Ranks: i, a, b, c
Karakas: i, ii, 1/2 b, answers c
Stingscourger: i, 1/2 b, answers c
Phantasmal Image: i, b, c, 1/2 ii
Swords to Plowshares: 1/2 b
Red Elemental Blast: i, 1/2 a

So I think it's reasonably clear that only Oblivion Ring and Confusion in the Ranks really qualify as good sideboard cards in this matchup (although Phantasmal Image looks surprisingly good vs the creature based versions), since the other options are only partial answers at best. REB and Swords seem like really marginal cards that you possibly don't even want to SB in, looking worse than cards that are already maindecked. Thoughts?

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- 3 Relic is just too good against Rug and BG as long as you dont expect a lot of dredge, its the best grave hate in my opinion. About RIP: 9 white sources is just not safe enaugh. You want the possibility of playing it always on t2 if you have it in hand and thats just not the case.

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I have 10 white sources since I run Karakas as well. Maybe I was lucky on the day, but with aggressive mulligans I am happy with those odds (60% chance of having W and RIP in opener if prepared to mull to 5). I agree that Relic is the next best option if you aren't going for RIP.

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- Storm is still evil, even with mindbreak trap. But i hate unwinnable matches, thats why i will keep running them. 2nd best are chalice and pyrostatic pillar in my opinion, but pillar is bad against belcher and ANT can win through chalice@1 as through a chalice@0

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Chalice of the Void is also the best card you can have vs RUG too.... Maybe something that is awesome in multiple matchups?

Just stumbled across a list that won 1st place during a 38 man tournament in Bologna (februari 2013). It was played by Enrico Fanciullini, here's the list:

3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Stingscourger
2 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Legion Loyalist
1 Tuktuk the Explorer
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

2 Tarfire
1 Warren Weirding

4 AEther Vial

8 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands

Sideboard:
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Earwig Squad
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
4 Rakdos Charm
3 Pyrokinesis

Thanks for the compliment :)

1. If i had Thalia instead of Mindbreak trap it wouldve helped a lot i think in my High Tide mach, RIP would've done nothing. But i have the same Problem with Thalia, that i have with RIP. You have to cast her on T2. Yes you can cast her through caverns, but in a lot of games, expecially if you fight RUG or BUG you really want to name Goblins with caverns. If you have a Vial, she comes in T3, to late against non-hightide-storm. Plus she's absolutely useless against belcher.

2. a: I don't own any Karakas :/
b: I wouldve played instead of Port and I didn't draw my Port in these 3 Games.

3. Vs Oldshool-Omnitell you're right. Vs New Omnitell he could put dream halls into play, but that doesnt change the use of the named cards.
Vs Sneakshow Omnicience = Sneak attack into Grisel or Emmy

Oblivion Ring answers Sneak Attack --> go. But as i said, good playes don't make that move.
When I boarded against him i simply asked myself: Wich 60 cards are best against him? And I came to the conclusuion, that 2 swords are better then MWM and 1 Gempalm. Discussable, but its around 50:50 that he puts a Griselbrand through his Sneakattack, so a card thats good against 50% of his wincons is worth boarding, in my opinion.

If youre happy with 60% RIP, that's cool. But having Relic + 2 Random lands (against Graveyard.dec or with a vial in hand even 1 random land) is just a lot higher. I think if you play tight you don't loose games in wich you have Relic instead of RIP.

Chalice is awesome against RUG, but i think RUG is a better matchup and i don't want to put too many non-goblin cards in my deck. As long as you have lands: With Relic, Tarfire, Gempalm and MWM you survive, with Caverns and Vial you blank their counters, with Ringleader you win. I don't see a need for Chalices in that Matchup.

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Originally Posted by Asgar

Thanks for the compliment :)

1. If i had Thalia instead of Mindbreak trap it wouldve helped a lot i think in my High Tide mach, RIP would've done nothing. But i have the same Problem with Thalia, that i have with RIP. You have to cast her on T2. Yes you can cast her through caverns, but in a lot of games, expecially if you fight RUG or BUG you really want to name Goblins with caverns. If you have a Vial, she comes in T3, to late against non-hightide-storm. Plus she's absolutely useless against belcher.

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She's ideal on T2. But you can get her in later, with 10 sources of W, as well as Cavern/Vial. High Tide doesn't go off T3 every game.

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Originally Posted by Asgar

2. a: I don't own any Karakas :/
b: I wouldve played instead of Port and I didn't draw my Port in these 3 Games.

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Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by Asgar

3. Vs Oldshool-Omnitell you're right. Vs New Omnitell he could put dream halls into play, but that doesnt change the use of the named cards.
Vs Sneakshow Omnicience = Sneak attack into Grisel or Emmy

Oblivion Ring answers Sneak Attack --> go. But as i said, good playes don't make that move.
When I boarded against him i simply asked myself: Wich 60 cards are best against him? And I came to the conclusuion, that 2 swords are better then MWM and 1 Gempalm. Discussable, but its around 50:50 that he puts a Griselbrand through his Sneakattack, so a card thats good against 50% of his wincons is worth boarding, in my opinion.

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Yes, I completely agree that Swords are better than those cards. Although really, aren't they better than SGC and Krenko? Isn't it your top end you cut when sideboarding?

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Originally Posted by Asgar

If youre happy with 60% RIP, that's cool. But having Relic + 2 Random lands (against Graveyard.dec or with a vial in hand even 1 random land) is just a lot higher. I think if you play tight you don't loose games in wich you have Relic instead of RIP.

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Fair enough. The decision about which graveyard hate to run or which spot removals to run is a bit immaterial anyway.

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Originally Posted by Asgar

Chalice is awesome against RUG, but i think RUG is a better matchup and i don't want to put too many non-goblin cards in my deck. As long as you have lands: With Relic, Tarfire, Gempalm and MWM you survive, with Caverns and Vial you blank their counters, with Ringleader you win. I don't see a need for Chalices in that Matchup.

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Yeah, I don't run MWM or Tarfire, so I guess that makes the matchup harder for me. I think I might try out a switch of Piledriver/Warchief -> MWM/Chieftain.

Perhaps my build is weak to them, or maybe I just drew badly vs him.

This is my current Sideboard of 18 cards:
3 Thalia
4 RIP
4 CotV
3 StP
3 ORing
1 Jitte

As i wanted to say, against High Tide she is best. But the other Storm decks are faster, so possibly turn 2, probably turn 3 is just not, what i want against Combo.

I wouldn't ever board out krenko and SGC. Your best play against this deck is Lackey into something big. At least both give you permanents to survive an emrakul attack and alpha-strike back.

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Originally Posted by Asgar

3 Relic is just too good against Rug and BG as long as you dont expect a lot of dredge, its the best grave hate in my opinion. About RIP: 9 white sources is just not safe enaugh. You want the possibility of playing it always on t2 if you have it in hand and thats just not the case.

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As a dredge player myself, Relic is only a threat if you can land it on turn one and activate immediately when relevant, and if the dredge player has no acceleration (Street Wraith, Phantasmagorian in manaless for example) in hand.
The card draw is relevant, but I find it's lack of "target" a reason not to run it, when so many decks are running lotsa fetches for DRS.
DRS in the other hand, IS quite difficult to play through because it'll target the best dredger's, spells you need etc.
Manaless doesn't fear the mana-denial package, whilst LED-dredge with all their Sol-lands could be in trouble.
I've played against Goblins quite a few times to see them mull for grave hate, and then not draw a single mountain/fetch for turn after turn after they play Wasteland, Graf/Relic > go.
So I do agree that RiP could potentially be a risk as you may not get the mana-source you need.

If you're in the situation where your opposing player can play an instant (eg reanimator) to negate your Relic, tap or pop, than why run it?

I guess it comes down to how likely you are to face Dredge, Reanimator or Snapcatser et etc, cos I think Leyline of the Void, RiP & Grafdiggers are more effective than Relic.
RiP & LotV are far more effective against BUG/Deathrite Shitman too......

I guess it comes down to how likely you are to face Dredge, Reanimator or Snapcatser et etc, cos I think Leyline of the Void, RiP & Grafdiggers are more effective than Relic.
RiP & LotV are far more effective against BUG/Deathrite Shitman too......[/QUOTE]

But relic is most effective against Goyfs, plus cantrips!

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Originally Posted by orcanmail

But relic is most effective against Goyfs, plus cantrips!

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How is Relic better than Rest In Peace, under the context of goyf?
Relic can't target, so the Goyf player gets to choose whichever card is going to effect them the least, unless of course you pop it.

RE: Cantrips, are you implying Snapcaster?
If not, please correct me, but if you are, wouldn't RiP, LotV and Grafdiggers perform better here too?

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Originally Posted by slave

How is Relic better than Rest In Peace, under the context of goyf?
Relic can't target, so the Goyf player gets to choose whichever card is going to effect them the least, unless of course you pop it.

RE: Cantrips, are you implying Snapcaster?
If not, please correct me, but if you are, wouldn't RiP, LotV and Grafdiggers perform better here too?

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First of all, when making a decision about wether RIP or Relic "is better vs Goyfs" you have to take into to account several factors.
#1 How difficult is it to get the one or the other to hit the battlefield. You could argue that RIP is slightly more vulerable since it can get caught by Spell Snare (RUG Thresh/Team America) and is slightly more vulerable to discard effects (since it costs 2 mana opposed to 1) and manascrew (White vs colorless)
#2 The topic of which one is better is a totally different story when you compare them while being on the battlefield.

RE:RE: Cantrips.
I read his message as
"Relic is better vs. Goyfs.
And
"Relic "cantrips" (used as a verb, thereby saying that: "Relic is a cantrip")."

Thalia + Warchief makes Tarfire cost R, right? Thalia makes it +1 to cast, Warchief makes it -1 to cast, they cancel each other out, right?

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

Thalia + Warchief makes Tarfire cost R, right? Thalia makes it +1 to cast, Warchief makes it -1 to cast, they cancel each other out, right?

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Edit: Apparently, yes.

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Originally Posted by orcanmail

But relic is most effective against Goyfs, plus cantrips!

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Uh, no. RIP is much more effective vs Goyfs as well, since with Relic you can make their Goyf an 0/1, but they can immediately start growing it again. With RIP they are screwed until they find and cast Abrupt Decay.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

First of all, when making a decision about wether RIP or Relic "is better vs Goyfs" you have to take into to account several factors.
#1 How difficult is it to get the one or the other to hit the battlefield. You could argue that RIP is slightly more vulerable since it can get caught by Spell Snare (RUG Thresh/Team America) and is slightly more vulerable to discard effects (since it costs 2 mana opposed to 1) and manascrew (White vs colorless)
#2 The topic of which one is better is a totally different story when you compare them while being on the battlefield.

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Yep. I don't think that Spell Snare is really applicable since we don't really want RIP vs RUG anyway and they are likely to side it out. But being more vulnerable to discard, plus just generally being a whole turn slower, as well as requiring white mana are all valid drawbacks to RIP which make the comparison to Relic more fair.

However, I have not found white mana to be a significant problem and in general I want to err on the side of having the more powerful card in my deck. The 'main plan' Goblins is hardly the most powerful thing you can do in legacy. In the recent tournament I was in, I think I would have struggled to win ANY of my matches if I had a poor SB. The SB was what won me most of my games. And most of those cards were white.

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Originally Posted by magicmerl

Unfortunately not. Warchief doesn't do anything, then Thalia makes it cost 1R.

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So this a rule about layering these effects? If so, how are the effects applied? What is saying Warchief's effect is applied first?

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Originally Posted by magicmerl

Yep. I don't think that Spell Snare is really applicable since we don't really want RIP vs RUG anyway and they are likely to side it out. But being more vulnerable to discard, plus just generally being a whole turn slower, as well as requiring white mana are all valid drawbacks to RIP which make the comparison to Relic more fair.

However, I have not found white mana to be a significant problem and in general I want to err on the side of having the more powerful card in my deck. The 'main plan' Goblins is hardly the most powerful thing you can do in legacy. In the recent tournament I was in, I think I would have struggled to win ANY of my matches if I had a poor SB. The SB was what won me most of my games. And most of those cards were white.

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Wow, I never thought anyone would NOT side in RIP against RUG. We gotta talk about this. In my oppinion a card that turns off 8/12 of their threads FOR THE REST OF THE GAME if it resolves is absolutely what we want. I would bring in Relic any time, so would I bring RIP, which is imo worth taking the risks that I mentioned above (being screwed on W, being Snare'd). I dont like to overestimate things but I think resolving a RIP against RUG Thresh is basically GG. Maybe an expert on RUG can shae his views with us.

Second, I dont think that RUG Thresh is likely to side out spellsnare, since it catches some quite relevant cards like Mogg War Marshal and Thalia (and RIP of course). Well, this is debateable of course, but I wouldn't go so far to assume that RUG Thresh is likely to side them out (even less so all of them).

Third, so far I didn't experience any problems with W splash or "not resolving RIP when needed". My colorfixing was like 6 fetchlands, 2 Plateau or even 6 fetchlands, 1 Plateau, 1 Karakas. So: no, splashing white, or being easily screwed isn't necessarily a problem, since RUG will target Cavern of Souls (and not Plateau) whenever they have the choice.

Some comments in bold.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Wow, I never thought anyone would NOT side in RIP against RUG. We gotta talk about this. In my oppinion a card that turns off 8/12 of their threads FOR THE REST OF THE GAME if it resolves is absolutely what we want. I would bring in Relic any time, so would I bring RIP, which is imo worth taking the risks that I mentioned above (being screwed on W, being Snare'd). I dont like to overestimate things but I think resolving a RIP against RUG Thresh is basically GG. Maybe an expert on RUG can shae his views with us.
They have Tarmogoyf and Force of Will as cards that are not 1CC. I think that generally Chalice of the Void is a better card vs their deck.

Second, I dont think that RUG Thresh is likely to side out spellsnare, since it catches some quite relevant cards like Mogg War Marshal and Thalia (and RIP of course). Well, this is debateable of course, but I wouldn't go so far to assume that RUG Thresh is likely to side them out (even less so all of them).
Maybe, although if you have Aether Vial and Caverns how good are counters for them generally?

Third, so far I didn't experience any problems with W splash or "not resolving RIP when needed". My colorfixing was like 6 fetchlands, 2 Plateau or even 6 fetchlands, 1 Plateau, 1 Karakas. So: no, splashing white, or being easily screwed isn't necessarily a problem, since RUG will target Cavern of Souls (and not Plateau) whenever they have the choice.
I Agree.

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In addition to CotV you have Thalia and Rest in Peace. How many goblins can you SB out without diluting your deck too much? Put another way, here's my list:

4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin-Street hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
1 Karakas
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Plateau
1 Taiga

Sideboard
4 Rest in Peace
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

In the Top8 I went
+ 4 Chalice of the Void
- 1 Skirk Prospector
- 1 Tin-Street hooligan
- 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
- 1 Krenko

Should I also have swapped Aether Vial for RIP?

How would you SB vs RUG with this?

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

So this a rule about layering these effects? If so, how are the effects applied? What is saying Warchief's effect is applied first?

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So, decided to look it up. Bolded the imp

"601.2e. The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can't be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes "locked in." If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect."
To Thalia applies first, then Warchief, applies later, but all in the same layer. The cost should be just R for a Tarfire under those circumstances. Anyone found anything different?

@magicmerl: Knowing GobboLord, he would probably sideboard out as you did, but bring in RiPs instead of CotVs, and I agree (actually, I'd take the Chieftain out to leave Krenko in, but well...).
Also, NEVER take Aether Vial out against Canadian. It is one of our best cards against them (comment based on a LOT of testing. Jon can back it up).

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

So, decided to look it up. Bolded the imp

"601.2e. The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can't be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes "locked in." If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect."
To Thalia applies first, then Warchief, applies later, but all in the same layer. The cost should be just R for a Tarfire under those circumstances. Anyone found anything different?

@magicmerl: Knowing GobboLord, he would probably sideboard out as you did, but bring in RiPs instead of CotVs, and I agree (actually, I'd take the Chieftain out to leave Krenko in, but well...).
Also, NEVER take Aether Vial out against Canadian. It is one of our best cards against them (comment based on a LOT of testing. Jon can back it up).

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Fuck Yes! It costs R (unless I don't understand how words work).

Go figure. Please excuse me while I go over there and correct another incorrect ruling I made recently regarding Thalia and Thoughtcast.... :eek:

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@magicmerl: Knowing GobboLord, he would probably sideboard out as you did, but bring in RiPs instead of CotVs, and I agree (actually, I'd take the Chieftain out to leave Krenko in, but well...).
Also, NEVER take Aether Vial out against Canadian. It is one of our best cards against them (comment based on a LOT of testing. Jon can back it up).

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But if 30 cards in their deck cost 1, then surely CotV is just as big a blowout?

Should I have also taken out 3 Piledrivers and an Incinerator for RIP?

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

First of all, when making a decision about wether RIP or Relic "is better vs Goyfs" you have to take into to account several factors.
#1 How difficult is it to get the one or the other to hit the battlefield. You could argue that RIP is slightly more vulerable since it can get caught by Spell Snare (RUG Thresh/Team America) and is slightly more vulerable to discard effects (since it costs 2 mana opposed to 1) and manascrew (White vs colorless)
#2 The topic of which one is better is a totally different story when you compare them while being on the battlefield.

RE:RE: Cantrips.
I read his message as
"Relic is better vs. Goyfs.
And
"Relic "cantrips" (used as a verb, thereby saying that: "Relic is a cantrip")."

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Thankyou Christian, you have explained it clearly. I would just like to add that relic also allows you to stay mono red, so is obviously better for mono red lists than RIP.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

@magicmerl: Knowing GobboLord, he would probably sideboard out as you did, but bring in RiPs instead of CotVs, and I agree (actually, I'd take the Chieftain out to leave Krenko in, but well...).

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Exactly.
-1 TSH, -1 Shooter, -1 Chieftain, -1 Krenko (leaving in Skirk to random-ly disable Daze. But this really depends on wether you go first or not. I'm not saying it is right or wrong to side out the one or ther other, but when you have to side out 4 cards, you should decide between those 5.
+ 4 RIP

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Also, NEVER take Aether Vial out against Canadian. It is one of our best cards against them (comment based on a LOT of testing. Jon can back it up).

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Backup #2

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Originally Posted by magicmerl

But if 30 cards in their deck cost 1, then surely CotV is just as big a blowout?

Should I have also taken out 3 Piledrivers and an Incinerator for RIP?

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Well, Chalice of the Void IS a blowout for them, but only if you manage to land it on a relatively early gamestate. RIP directly catapults you from an unfavorable boardstate to a very favorable one. When in their turn they had like 2 Tarmo-walls being 4/5, backed up by say, 1 Mongoose (3/3) and a Delver (3/2) RIP would leave them with 0/1, 0/1, 1/1 and 3/2 after it resolves. This makes RIP effectivey a REMOVAL spell to 2/3 of their creatures. So, Chalice IS a good choice, but it doesnt change the boardstate. RIP is literally ALWAYS good when you draw it, while Chalice can be a dead draw when you are already behind on lifepoints and boardposition.
This is also backed up by testing: RIP is stupidly good vs RUG Thresh.
Also, I wouldn't go so far to side out Drivers and Incinerators. When you are on the "RIP-train", the only 2 cards you have to worry about are Pyroclasm (or his retarded twin-brother whose name I forgot) and Delver of Secrets. Both Piley and Incinerator take care of Delver.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

(or his retarded twin-brother whose name I forgot)

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Rough/Tumble

Finally, i choose to play this list, i played goblins like a control deck before (black splash) and this list is not really control anymore :laugh::

2 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
12 Mountain

1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
3/4 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4/3 Goblin Warchief

4 Æther Vial
3 Lightning bolt

SB: 1 Tuktuk Scrapper
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Boartusk Liege
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Confusion in the Ranks
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void

Tarfire just disappeared from the MD for bolt (it was fun tutoring a burn spell with matron but against tarmo based deck, when you got a 0/1 tarmo on board and a tarfire in hand (my opp knows the list i run :cool:), it's just frustrating...
My last commander just blow out from the list coz he wasn't in my game plan anymore, to put dudes with haste on the board and run in a straight line.
Maybe should I just swap Krenko and a loyalist to make driver stronger.

I was testing with my mate his list (a Pod deck with a combo kill, disruption, abrupt decay, shaman, a pack of tarmo and some kitchen finks, pretty annoying stuff xD)

Some things came up :

-Chieftain was my best choice on a linking lackey coz he is super aggro with MwM and Driver. Warchief was like 1000 times weaker (matron and ringleader are not that strong when you try to be lethal at turn 3) but he's an haste provider and a strong mid game weapon. I'll just swap 1 for 1 (4 chieftain 3 warchief).
-Krenko is a strong weapon, he is rarely useless and gave me all games he pop's in.
-SGC also suffers a bad story, a lackey t1, linking t2 after a bolt on deathrite, t2 phantasmal image on SGC. And a few turns later, eternal witness on image naming sgc again :( . More seriously, i feel that he is just bad on this metagame. Anyone else feels that way?
-Bolt is not that bad in gob and a way ahead from Tarfire
-I just cut all the 1 off (krenko and sharpshooter remain coz they are always good)
-Stingscourger is definitely worth his slots
-I'll surely splash G (4 fetch +2 taiga) for tin street coz Tuktuk if so fucking slow (hey wizbro, need a goblin manic vandal)

I tried RIP, it's just > relic against *****. Relic is just fine too but not that powerful (coz you have to get rid of his tarmo before he refill his GY)