All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Show and Tell requires you have both Show and Tell and a card to show your opponent (and tell him about it). That means you need to load up both on SnTs and stuff to SnT in, which eats up a lot of slots in your deck with cards of which you really only want to ever see one. Oath, by contrast, needs itself and the opponent having a creature, and it's not picky how they get that creature - which means an aggro deck's game plan of putting guys into play and then turning them sideways naturally enables your one-card Emrakul Making Machine. But in case the opponent isn't so obliging, you can run a land (so, see, no spell slots are taken) and maybe some Beast Withins if you want to go deep. Then the rest of your deck is dig and protection and control cards and bam, you have a deck that is very difficult to answer barring luck.

So yeah, Oath is on a whole 'nother level above Show and Tell.

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The nice thing about these threads is you get to see who understands the format, and who doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Adryan

Maybe we need something to come off the banlist that hurts Delver decks. I would suggest Vampiric Tutor.

Maybe i'm wrong and the format will be utterly broken with 4 Vampiric Tutor, but we can at least think about it.

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So yeah, you're wrong. I suggest you reread the bottom part of my post. Learn.

If WotC really wanted to fix Legacy they'd do all of the following:

1. Ban the blue shell.

That means Brainstorm, Force of Will and Ponder. That leaves all the blue power in the format still available but at only slightly more consistency than non-blue shells. Yes, people will put Preordain in for Ponder and Serum Visions as the second cantrip but the overall power of the blue shell will be much lower with no Brainstorm and no Force of Will.

Daze, Spell Pierce and Stifle will still be there to stop combo from going berserk on turn 1 and 2 and there are a few lists that will play all 3 alongside other synergistic assets. You'll have like a 5% turn 0 win rate with a lot of combo lists and that just is what it is. Combo has that 5% turn 0 win against non-blue lists now as it is.

2. Ban Vengevine and unban Survival of the Fittest.

One card breaks SotF right now and makes it grindingly hard to compete with and that's Vengevine. Lots of other things become better with SoTF in play but isn't that a good thing? Birds of Paradise might even see a comeback and that would definitely be a good thing.

3. Ban Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Griselband.

There are a bunch of really cool things to reanimate and show and tell but the two creatures above are so much better than all of them that the others never see play. Both were mistakes when they were printed and neither is necessary for a healthy meta. They're both extreme overkill for cheating into play in a format where cheating into play isn't exactly hard.

4. Ban either Sensei's Divining Top or Terminus.

Doesn't have to be both, just one or the other. The combo sits on all creature aggro strategies so heavily that it's almost impossible to play creature aggro in Legacy. SDT might be the logical ban because it causes time issues in tournaments.

You do those 4 things and we're back to a healthy varied meta overnight. The number of playable archetypes will probably triple.

If you're gonna do all that you have to take out Wirewood Symbiote or Nettle Sentinel also, otherwise your "healthier more diverse" meta will just be elves and decks trying to beat elves.

Actually, why don't we just play Modern with dual lands grandfathered in?

The results also depend on what you consider different "archetypes," because apparently some people feel that every deck with Brainstorm, Ponder, and 8 fetchlands is the same archetype.

I totally disagree on banning Force of Will. Combo gets way better without Force running around. Oddly enough, fast combo decks got better with Treasure Cruise around since those decks often cut Stifles and Spell Pierces.

I never thought of Force being an oppressive card. A card that is card disadvantage and is often sided out vs fair decks.


Cruise is stupid. A 1 mana draw three card. wtf. As mentioned before, you'd think after seeing Tombstalker for a while that they may be more careful with Delve. Nope. Dig Through Time is pretty insane too but I wouldn't ban that quite yet. Not sure if they are going to ban Cruise though. Power level is up there but it doesn't saturate top 8's, the way cards like Mental Misstep or Survival of the Fittest were. I find it so annoying that not only blue gets the best card selection, they now have the best card draw too.

Cruise is the only card I would ban. And for unbans maybe Black Vise.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

If WotC really wanted to fix Legacy they'd do all of the following:

1. Ban the blue shell.

That means Brainstorm, Force of Will and Ponder. That leaves all the blue power in the format still available but at only slightly more consistency than non-blue shells. Yes, people will put Preordain in for Ponder and Serum Visions as the second cantrip but the overall power of the blue shell will be much lower with no Brainstorm and no Force of Will.

Daze, Spell Pierce and Stifle will still be there to stop combo from going berserk on turn 1 and 2 and there are a few lists that will play all 3 alongside other synergistic assets. You'll have like a 5% turn 0 win rate with a lot of combo lists and that just is what it is. Combo has that 5% turn 0 win against non-blue lists now as it is.

2. Ban Vengevine and unban Survival of the Fittest.

One card breaks SotF right now and makes it grindingly hard to compete with and that's Vengevine. Lots of other things become better with SoTF in play but isn't that a good thing? Birds of Paradise might even see a comeback and that would definitely be a good thing.

3. Ban Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Griselband.

There are a bunch of really cool things to reanimate and show and tell but the two creatures above are so much better than all of them that the others never see play. Both were mistakes when they were printed and neither is necessary for a healthy meta. They're both extreme overkill for cheating into play in a format where cheating into play isn't exactly hard.

4. Ban either Sensei's Divining Top or Terminus.

Doesn't have to be both, just one or the other. The combo sits on all creature aggro strategies so heavily that it's almost impossible to play creature aggro in Legacy. SDT might be the logical ban because it causes time issues in tournaments.

You do those 4 things and we're back to a healthy varied meta overnight. The number of playable archetypes will probably triple.

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I imagine your favorite deck is maverick, and are really pissed, because you don't think it's super viable right now?

So many flawed arguments in one post (and this entire thread, tbh). I can always come here and get amused, when I'm bored. Thank you all.

Personal request:

Can we all agree banning Force would be bad and just leave it out of future discussions?

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

Combo has that 5% turn 0 win against non-blue lists now as it is.

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Hilarious post. My personal favourite is the part above. I guess you never heard of Belcher or Spanish Inquisition. Pact SI has a 50% Turn 1 kill rate.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Personal request:

Can we all agree banning Force would be bad and just leave it out of future discussions?

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Personal request:

Can we all agree banning Force would be bad and just leave it out of future discussions?

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One would think.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Personal request:

Can we all agree banning Force would be bad and just leave it out of future discussions?

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Let's hope so.

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Originally Posted by H

https://adayintheloucks.wordpress.co...avingthedream/

Didn't read like that to me, but it was a while ago, so maybe I just don't remember it well...

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Yeah, I definitely don't read this as "a blog entry of some MODO guy who quit Wizards because he tried to be productive, but they wouldn't let him and moved him to DotP instead." They were letting him be productive and were apparently happy with what he was doing, but his supervisor (correctly) noted he wasn't happy and tried moving him to Duels of the Planeswalkers to see if that would improve things for him.

If I were to take any criticism for Wizards of the Coast from that blog post, it would be that the work environment isn't very good (at least in the digital development portion he worked in), and that causes people who actually do want to go in and legitimately fix problems to become discouraged and burn out.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Personal request:

Can we all agree banning Force would be bad and just leave it out of future discussions?

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I'm a total non-blue player, do think that something should be done supporting non-blue cards, hope that treasure cruise (or tnn, maybe delver?) will feel the axe and I still fully agree with this.

Force of Will is very much encouraged by me. It is brilliant design, card disadvantage, powerful enough but not oppressive. I just wish there were fantastic pitch spells in other colors, but that's beside the point.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

If WotC really wanted to fix Legacy they'd do all of the following:

1. Ban the blue shell.

That means Brainstorm, Force of Will and Ponder. That leaves all the blue power in the format still available but at only slightly more consistency than non-blue shells. Yes, people will put Preordain in for Ponder and Serum Visions as the second cantrip but the overall power of the blue shell will be much lower with no Brainstorm and no Force of Will.

Daze, Spell Pierce and Stifle will still be there to stop combo from going berserk on turn 1 and 2 and there are a few lists that will play all 3 alongside other synergistic assets. You'll have like a 5% turn 0 win rate with a lot of combo lists and that just is what it is. Combo has that 5% turn 0 win against non-blue lists now as it is.

2. Ban Vengevine and unban Survival of the Fittest.

One card breaks SotF right now and makes it grindingly hard to compete with and that's Vengevine. Lots of other things become better with SoTF in play but isn't that a good thing? Birds of Paradise might even see a comeback and that would definitely be a good thing.

3. Ban Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Griselband.

There are a bunch of really cool things to reanimate and show and tell but the two creatures above are so much better than all of them that the others never see play. Both were mistakes when they were printed and neither is necessary for a healthy meta. They're both extreme overkill for cheating into play in a format where cheating into play isn't exactly hard.

4. Ban either Sensei's Divining Top or Terminus.

Doesn't have to be both, just one or the other. The combo sits on all creature aggro strategies so heavily that it's almost impossible to play creature aggro in Legacy. SDT might be the logical ban because it causes time issues in tournaments.

You do those 4 things and we're back to a healthy varied meta overnight. The number of playable archetypes will probably triple.

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no thanks, I would rather not play modern.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

You've set three wonderful reasons into this world to not waste your spare time and energy as a nightshift-worker (afaik at least; sorry if I took you wrong reading about it in another thread) in this forum or, god forbid, on a stranger like me, rather than your family.

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Sorry for my bad English, but I'm not sure if I get the message; I hope that you're not equating the life necessity of nightshift overtimes with Magic events.
Even if I'd be a worker by the belt conveyor, still the tourneys brought me very little pleasure with their 135% man-hours production of Ponder after Ponder after Ponder in a five-year plan for cantrips.

http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com...er-300x204.jpg
довольно Размышления

Ban Force, unban Frantic Search and Mind's Desire WOOOO!

Ban force, unban MANA DRAIN.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

If WotC really wanted to fix Legacy they'd do all of the following:

1. Ban the blue shell.

(...)

2. Ban Vengevine and unban Survival of the Fittest.

(...)

3. Ban Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Griselband.

(...)

4. Ban either Sensei's Divining Top or Terminus.

(...)

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LMAO, you can't be serious right? I played a blue-based deck once, and it wasn't for me, but these examples just don't make sense (no offence btw). I do however agree something must be done about blue-dominance, but not by banning the blue shell or the other aformentioned cards!

I hope other colors will get some power back in future releases, or even by unbanning some cards. To me the main problem would be: which cards to unban? A lot of cards were banned before I got 'seriously' into the game. I never saw them in action, never played in that meta, so I only know the stories.

Power cards are named power cards for a reason, but unban some of them for, let's say, a brief period (call it a paroll-time) and see how the meta reacts to it. Surely a lot have changed since some of those cards were banned. Perhaps the powerlevels have changed, even dropped. It is possible. (as a Goblin-fanatic, my personal favorite would be Goblin Recruiter; t2-kills aren't that spectaculair these days, but stacking your deck is - so unbanning RC will probably never happen-)

Just my two cents

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Sorry for my bad English, but I'm not sure if I get the message; I hope that you're not equating the life necessity of nightshift overtimes with Magic events.
Even if I'd be a worker by the belt conveyor, still the tourneys brought me very little pleasure with their 135% man-hours production of Ponder after Ponder after Ponder in a five-year plan for cantrips.

http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com...er-300x204.jpg
довольно Размышления

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I did not. I said that your remaining freetime with nightshift overtimes and 135% manhours is probably too precious to waste it here and on a format you do not enjoy.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

If WotC really wanted to fix Legacy they'd do all of the following:

1. Ban the blue shell.

That means Brainstorm, Force of Will and Ponder. That leaves all the blue power in the format still available but at only slightly more consistency than non-blue shells. Yes, people will put Preordain in for Ponder and Serum Visions as the second cantrip but the overall power of the blue shell will be much lower with no Brainstorm and no Force of Will.

Daze, Spell Pierce and Stifle will still be there to stop combo from going berserk on turn 1 and 2 and there are a few lists that will play all 3 alongside other synergistic assets. You'll have like a 5% turn 0 win rate with a lot of combo lists and that just is what it is. Combo has that 5% turn 0 win against non-blue lists now as it is.

2. Ban Vengevine and unban Survival of the Fittest.

One card breaks SotF right now and makes it grindingly hard to compete with and that's Vengevine. Lots of other things become better with SoTF in play but isn't that a good thing? Birds of Paradise might even see a comeback and that would definitely be a good thing.

3. Ban Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Griselband.

There are a bunch of really cool things to reanimate and show and tell but the two creatures above are so much better than all of them that the others never see play. Both were mistakes when they were printed and neither is necessary for a healthy meta. They're both extreme overkill for cheating into play in a format where cheating into play isn't exactly hard.

4. Ban either Sensei's Divining Top or Terminus.

Doesn't have to be both, just one or the other. The combo sits on all creature aggro strategies so heavily that it's almost impossible to play creature aggro in Legacy. SDT might be the logical ban because it causes time issues in tournaments.

You do those 4 things and we're back to a healthy varied meta overnight. The number of playable archetypes will probably triple.

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You're just trolling at this point lol.

For what it's worth, there's a Day 2 breakdown of the SCG Open:

Let's see how this plays out

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Originally Posted by Barook

For what it's worth, there's a Day 2 breakdown of the SCG Open:

Let's see how this plays out

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Thanks for posting. Sad we don't know the relation between Starters with deck x and the number of them making day two to see how decks perform with a wider skill gap between their pilots (some decks carry bad pilots to day 2 on sheer power; some Masters pilot tier. 2 decks to day 2; etc.). According to that data we need to see at least 2 URx decks in the Top 8 with more than 25% of the field being on it. Looking forward to the result

Edit: Looks like slightly more than 70% blue decks on first sight

Today's outcome *might* change the face of legacy in the coming week and to that effect, SCG Indy meta as well.

Day 2 in a nutshell: Treasure_Cruise.dec is dominating, followed by hate_bears.dec and Elves. Brainstorm being the most played, Ponder second.

So 118 players.
55 decks running URx.
29 "different" archetypes.
Although the format is very varied, the numbers are not spread.
If the top8 has a similar spread then there should not to be worried to much.
But what makes that theres so many UR Delver decks anyway.
I mean, i own the deck, but i never want to bother bringing it to a tournament.

If only the brainstorm haters knew just how many people think this format is perfectly fine and very enjoyable. You're the minority, guys.

the only relevant information from that data is the person with angel prison going day 2! :wink:

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Originally Posted by Norm

If only the brainstorm haters knew just how many people think this format is perfectly fine and very enjoyable. You're the minority, guys.

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Oh, I know you guys like it... And if I'm the minority: I like diversity, not just people following the hype. Just imagine this goes on and on: all the same decks every tournament... How dumb is that?

Don't ban BS, FoW or what not, just give the other colors some power back... Clean up the ban-list. That could do a lot for the meta :smile:

No Death & Taxes in the top 8, but there's Lands and Elves paired unfavorably against 2 S&T decks (Sneak Attack and UR Omni-Tell). Lol

It looks like a very diverse top 8.

For those complaining about data, we now have a complete set of decklists for ALL day 2 decklists including pairings for each round.

Click here

So out of top 10, 7 decks were "blue" and 3 decks were not, which is expected when 70% of the field is blue.

In other words, the metgame is fine and decks are placing proportionally to popularity (in terms of blue vs nonblue I guess). If anything, this shows Lands.dec is fucking strong.

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Originally Posted by AznSeal

So out of top 10, 7 decks were "blue" and 3 decks were not, which is expected when 70% of the field is blue.

In other words, the metgame is fine and decks are placing proportionally to popularity (in terms of blue vs nonblue I guess). If anything, this shows Lands.dec is fucking strong.

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It tells is that blue is NOT over-/outperforming non-blue decks, but if blue which is so fucking present (and maybe even overplayed) and streamlines into one strategy, we need to take a close look.

Thankfully we already know what combo decks gained steam thanks to the UR delver penetration and is about to Balance the metagame and punish the linear aggro strategies as the Legacy cardpool is able to

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Originally Posted by Barook

For those complaining about data, we now have a complete set of decklists for ALL day 2 decklists including pairings for each round.

Click here

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Top 16 actually looks pretty diverse. You got aggro, mid-range aggro, spell-combo, creature combo, control, and a graveyard deck.

Seems fine to me.

Edit/PS: it also seems to demonstrate that in TreasureCruise.meta, the decline of tempo decks packing Wastelands has positioned combo and Lands really well in the current meta. Chaining mana into Tendrils seems really good right now.

It's 2015 and I-don't-die-to-Forked-Bolt Kird Ape wins an SCG Open! LAWL

As expected and predicted, decks that prey on the URx circlejerk, that made up to 30% of the metagame this Open, achieved excellent results, even if I'm sure did not see Lands and Apes coming lol

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I did not. I said that your remaining freetime with nightshift overtimes and 135% manhours is probably too precious to waste it here and on a format you do not enjoy.

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Oops, sorry, then I did not understand you well, but it shouldn't really matter now. However you hit the nail on head and I sold the RUG lands and Forces yesterday.

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Originally Posted by mlschuma

Top 16 actually looks pretty diverse. You got aggro, mid-range aggro, spell-combo, creature combo, control, and a graveyard deck.

Seems fine to me.

Edit/PS: it also seems to demonstrate that in TreasureCruise.meta, the decline of tempo decks packing Wastelands has positioned combo and Lands really well in the current meta. Chaining mana into Tendrils seems really good right now.

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Right. Genius determination. As long as you don't mind facing cantrip.dec every single round, it is quite diverse. Same shell. Different wincon.

You got Spaceballs-the T-shirt, Spaceballs-the Coloring Book, Spaceballs-the Lunch box, Spaceballs-the Breakfast Cereal, Spaceballs-the Flame Thrower, and Spaceballs the doll.

To completely misquote Henry Ford, you can successfully play any color in Legacy so long as it is blue.

I mean, I guess 3/4 of the top finishing decks isn't bad, really.

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Originally Posted by Finn

Right. Genius determination. As long as you don't mind facing cantrip.dec every single round, it is quite diverse. Same shell. Different wincon.

You got Spaceballs-the T-shirt, Spaceballs-the Coloring Book, Spaceballs-the Lunch box, Spaceballs-the Breakfast Cereal, Spaceballs-the Flame Thrower, and Spaceballs the doll.

To completely misquote Henry Ford, you can successfully play any color in Legacy so long as it is blue.

I mean, I guess 3/4 of the top finishing decks isn't bad, really.

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Different wincon? With all respect, but Storm, Miracles and URx Delver differ A BIT more than just "the wincon". They share Brainstorm + Ponder, which is quite less than people claimed being the case this week naming a full 20 cards "the blue shell"

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Originally Posted by Finn

Right. Genius determination. As long as you don't mind facing cantrip.dec every single round, it is quite diverse. Same shell. Different wincon.

You got Spaceballs-the T-shirt, Spaceballs-the Coloring Book, Spaceballs-the Lunch box, Spaceballs-the Breakfast Cereal, Spaceballs-the Flame Thrower, and Spaceballs the doll.

To completely misquote Henry Ford, you can successfully play any color in Legacy so long as it is blue.

I mean, I guess 3/4 of the top finishing decks isn't bad, really.

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Because let's pretend the return of Shardless, Tarmogoyf, Kird Ape etc. don't represent a meta shift. Not to mention Storm, S&T, and the Delver/Blade variants being completely different decks from a strategic standpoint. And Miracles doesn't even make a top 20 mention.

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Originally Posted by Finn

Right. Genius determination. As long as you don't mind facing cantrip.dec every single round, it is quite diverse. Same shell. Different wincon.

You got Spaceballs-the T-shirt, Spaceballs-the Coloring Book, Spaceballs-the Lunch box, Spaceballs-the Breakfast Cereal, Spaceballs-the Flame Thrower, and Spaceballs the doll.

To completely misquote Henry Ford, you can successfully play any color in Legacy so long as it is blue.

I mean, I guess 3/4 of the top finishing decks isn't bad, really.

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That can be said "i'm sick of facing Deathrite Shaman, it's just the same elf with a different win con" when referring to elves vs jund vs BUG delver

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Originally Posted by AznSeal

That can be said "i'm sick of facing Deathrite Shaman, it's just the same elf with a different win con" when referring to elves vs jund vs BUG delver

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Deathrite Shaman never surpassed ~35% meta penetration even during its heydays.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Deathrite Shaman never surpassed ~35% meta penetration even during its heydays.

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That wasn't his point and you know that.

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Originally Posted by mlschuma

Because let's pretend the return of Shardless, Tarmogoyf, Kird Ape etc. don't represent a meta shift. Not to mention Storm, S&T, and the Delver/Blade variants being completely different decks from a strategic standpoint. And Miracles doesn't even make a top 20 mention.

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Oh, it's a shift. From blue to blue. Well done, mate. Well done.