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I've played 3 Swords before, but 4 is really just better.Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfThePanda
You don't need a Predict, so don't cut necessary cards just to fit it in. I agree with cutting a Jace for either a Clique of Ponder, your call. Merits to both.Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfThePanda
You'll also want 2 Plains. 5 Islands is a bit much, go to 4.
Regarding Nahiri, the Harbinger:
It's great in the sort of build popularized by Joe Lossett (essentially, Legendary Miracles -- 22 lands, Snapcaster, Clique and Venser, 2 Karakas, etc.). I don't think she would fit in a build that is running Mentor in the main deck. Builds running 20 lands and 4 ponder are too low to consistently hit 4 lands on turn 4, especially against a format with Wasteland and Stifle. If you're running her, you want to be able to land her right away.
The reality is that most of the win conditions (and Terminus) in Miracles are dead cards in your opening hand. The goal of course would be to use Brainstorm or Jace to throw back Emrakul (or Entreat or whatever) back until the opportunity arises. Emrakul does offer a nice bonus of making you resistant to Grindstone (at least in game 1). Running a bunch of late game cards that are bad in your opening hand is simply the cost of playing a deck that intends to win in the late game.
Nahiri is powerful even without the ultimate: card filter and removal in a single card... that also threatens to end the game in 3 turns. I don't think she would be worth running at all if the other abilities weren't good.
Faster decks continue to be the archetype's main problem. Decks like Burn and Delver can often manage 20 damage before Miracles can establish a lock. Cabal Therapy is especially powerful against a deck that can't empty its hand very quickly. Nahiri is not solving any problems here. But against midrange decks, she is an amazing new addition to the archetype's win condition options. I have been impressed with her in testing and would suggest people give her a chance.
From the sounds of it, she is a sideboard card. Is there any merit to that, or do you still want her main? Because if her effectiveness depends on the opponent, that's a sideboard card. The next question is: Is it going to be better against the target deck than the card you are replacing?Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I have no idea about any of this, but I figured I'd throw some input in.
Also, how are we bringing out Emrakul? There's no way we hard cast it, is there? What am I missing there?
I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, until you make that comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfThePanda
Nahiri, the Harbinger
+2: You may discard a card. If you do, draw a card.
−2: Exile target enchantment, tapped artifact, or tapped creature.
−8: Search your library for an artifact or creature card, put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library. It gains haste. Return it to your hand at the beginning of the next end step.
RTFC
I personally don't like Nahiri because she puts us into 3c G1 and I like to minimize the potential of getting blown out by inherent nonbasic hate. But I will be keeping an eye on results and if she raises our W% significantly across many/all MUs I might have to play her.
I already bought 2 off Hareruya anyway, though mostly because she's spiking and I want to get the copies I would need now rather than later when she's hit her ceiling.
To be clear - the 3 swords option was if you increased the number of Snapcasters. It's also dependant on what other sorts of removal you bring to your list. Take for example Joe's list with 3 swords. He has 2x Venser and 3x Cliques. That potentially gets rid of targets to sword or bounce while digging for that terminus.Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfThePanda
This is the list of BAZAAR OF MOXEN in Annecy, an important tournment in Europe.
WELLINGER Serafin - UW Miracles - Top 8 Legacy
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Terminus
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
8 Island
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Counterspell
2 Back to Basics
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Arid Mesa
1 Tundra
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Council's Judgment
1 Ponder
Sideboard 15
3 Flusterstorm
1 Peacekeeper
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
1 Future Sight
1 Rest in Peace
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Moat
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Phyrexian Unlife
1 Disenchant
what do you think about this?
I don't like BTB maindeck and only 1 ponder. I would ask to you about it.
(300 players..)
Gross. Congrats, but gross. I wonder what inbred meta people were expecting that they didn't feel the need to run Wear//Tear and REB.
Right... That. I have a reputation for not reading cards all the way through. For some reason, I was thinking that Miracles decks without Nahiri were running Emrakul. Lesson learned. Sorry about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Ignore your posts. Got it.Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfThePanda
Well I'm not going to learn if I don't interact and make mistakes. It's not like I'm a bad player or anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by prepare4robots
So... In that list posted, the guy is running 1 Ponder. Is Ponder that cuttable of a card? It seems like a great filter card as well as a card which allows you to manually shuffle after Top activations if you don't have a fetch.
And is it normal to run Back to Basics in the maindeck? I ACTUALLY READ THE WHOLE CARD and this one feels like a sideboard card too. The one thing that I can give it is that its CMC is low. But is the meta really filled with decks with mostly nonbasics? I mean, obviously if he won. But can that be applied in a general sense, or was that a good meta call on his part? If you look at the manabase, he is running less fetches and no Karakas, so the manabase was obviously build around Back to Basics. I'm not sure if that is something that a build can count on going blind into a meta.
There are also 2 Mentors in the Main, which is just confusing me because there are so many people telling me to run 1 Main, 2 Main, or 0 Main. It is starting to sound like it's just personal preference. I like 1 Main.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfThePanda
I feel like reading cards and knowing what they do go hand in hand with not being a bad player :P
If you look at his deck, you'll see he can run Back to Basics because he's UW only and runs a ton of basics.
So, I didn't play as great as Serafin Welling and his UW build, but anyways, here is my report.
I woke up at 6am to meet my friends at 7am, and go by car to Annecy. I planned to play RUG Lands, but as I really didn't sleep very well (my baby son screamed all night). So, before leaving home, I thought it will be easier to play Miracle Mentor instead of RUG Lands. Not because the deck is more or less complicated to play, but because I felt Miracle Mentor will leave me more time between round than Lands.
One hour of drive later, we arrived at the tournament place. I talked with other guys, smoked few cigarettes, and then noticed I was so tired than I forgot to remove the proxies in my deck since it was not supposed to be my tournament deck... So I needed to find 3 Tundra and 4 Counterbalance. I bought Counterbalance and hopefully my friends who piloted the car lend me 3 Tundra he will trading at the tournament. So lucky.
1-0 Round 1 vs Shardless BUG
This was a good match. Winning the first match is always cool. My opponent was playing Shardless BUG, and didn't have lots of luck since the only creature he had cast was Baleful Strix and Shaman. He didn't see any Tarmogoyf or Shardless to cascade, plus they Shaman were almost every time hitter the turn after by Swords or Bolt, and the Strix chump blocked my mentor.
First game was a real sin. He cast Lilianna and destroyed my hand. I scooped soon because I want to keep time for game 2 and 3. Game 2 was very fast, I was able to establish a CounterTop lock soon, and the Mentor slowly took the game with a big attack phase (loop Top into Top). Game 3 was almost a carbon copy from game 2 ;)
2-0 Round 2 vs Death & Taxes
This was a very close match, but it ended both game in my favor. Game 1 I established a fast CounterTop lock, followed by a Terminus and then cast Mentor and start looping Top into Top. Game 2 I kept a good hand with a Disenchant. Turn 1 he cast a Vial. I cast a Top. He up his Vial and drop a second land (a Rishadan Port I guess). I drop a land and Disenchant his Vial. This was a game because he just never got a 3rd land and I was soon after with Jace to be sure he won't draw one. Mentor took the game slowly.
I really apologized against my opponent because the first Terminus was cast illegally (from a mana took in upkeep off Rishadan Port activation), and we didn't notice until a turn passed. A judge was close to us and told us we cannot go back in the game because a full turn was made (my turn, his turn, my turn).
3-0 Round 3 vs Jund
Another match where CounterTop was on the table soon, and where I was able to loop Top into Top to make an army of tokens, who took the game in only one swing. Games were close, and again I was once destroyed by a fast Liliana. Damn Planeswalker ! I was a bit lucky because I drew a second Counterbalance and kept it in hand several turns (pitch to Force). Then I chose to play it, having 2 counterbalance in the game. Was a nice move because my opponent drew his Abrupt Decay right after !
3-1 Round 4 vs Show and Tell
I wasn't able to stop him and Emrakul or Griselbrand took the game. My opponent was very much better prepared than I was, and never ever forget a thing on the board. He was a good player and he played in the top tables at the end of round 8, so I guess he ended top16.
3-2 Round 5 vs Planeswalker.deck (Gideon/Sorin, Lord of Innistrad)
Curiously, I wasn't paired with anyone for this round. Judge Table told me to play again room guy, I wasn't happy because it generally means random deck. And it was : a kind of Planeswalker.deck with Gideon, Sorin, and Elspeth... I took one game with a loop Top into Top, but not the 2 others :/
3-3 Round 6 vs Eldrazi
Just too fast and too aggressive. I never was able to do something.
Overall it was a nice day, the deck is not bad but Daze was just not in the right place. Also playing only 2 Terminus was wrong. I will go to 3-4 Terminus and 1-2 more burn spell (Sudden Shock to add more cmc 2 spell for Counterbalance, or Forked Bolt).
The list I played, for reference (I dont know if it still Miracle with only 2 Terminus...)
MAINDECK
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminus
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
SIDEBOARD
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroclasm
2 Pyroblast
2 Disenchant
2 Rest in Peace
2 Blood Moon
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
I understand you're trying to go wild with Mentor + Bolt. However, I feel CMC 2 Burn works better since Chalice is at all time high. To be specific I feel there's room in exploring Lighting Helix instead of Bolt.Quote:
Originally Posted by markkugel
Instead of trying to build around Mentor, you should let adapt Mentor to your list. In other words, move it to the SB and play MD Entreat again. Mentor is a great secondary win-con, but he's not worth sinking all your resources into.Quote:
Originally Posted by markkugel
Hey guys, just started playing the Nahiri build. Do you guys board out Emrakul vs Death and Taxes?
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Nhiri, the Harbinger
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Counterspell
1 Pyroblast
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
Sideboard
3 Flusterstorm
2 Wear // Tear
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Rest in Peace
2 Blood Moon
1 Counterspell
In my opinion, Nahiri does not [yet] have a 'build'. There are a bunch of people, myself included, who are trying out Nahiri to see if she is good enough. Until she starts putting up actual results, it's nothing more than testing and we probably won't know the proper way to sideboard for each match.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
That being said, I think your real question is: Do we keep Em in against D&T given they have Karakas? If you break this question down, there are really only three possible answers, each of which likely needs to be tested.
1. Do nothing and assume your opponent won't draw Karakas - This is not a good option in my opinion, but is a perfectly reasonable approach. You're basically racing their draws.
2. Side out Em (and Nahiri?) - This is better than option 1 in my opinion, however, we need to determine what come in out of the sideboard. So, what would we replace the win-con with? Needs testing, could be Monastary Mentor or any other potential sideboard cards.
3. Side in tech to shut down Karakas - This and option 2 are tied for viability in my opinion. Lots of cards can shut off Karaks. In Joe's build he can end of turn Venser it back to the opponents hand. Pithing needle is already a good card against D&T. Blood Moon also works, I've never sided it in against D&T, but this is another option. Interesting thing about this option is some of these answers are searchable by Nahiri herself (needle and Venser for example)
All of these need testing. Please let us know what you find, and how you like Nahiri.
Holy crap, this deck is ridiculously easy to play. That was the easiest 4-1 league of my life.
BUG Control: 2-0
Shardless BUG: 2-1
Goblins: 2-0
Death and Taxes: 1-0 (then I had to go to the store and timed out) 1-2
Storm: 2-1 (punted game 2 by not leaving FoW as my draw with Top, I had 5 mana up but I was so far ahead I didn't think he could storm me out).
It feels like if you play this deck well, it is basically unstoppable. This was my first time playing the deck in a competitive setting, and I am very happy with it. I made a ton of mistakes, and was only punished for 1 of them.
Aside from maybe Shardless, I don't see how Nahiri shines in any of those MUs.
I agree. Everyone else, Reid Duke among them, are just trying to not get people to play Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Facepalm.jpg
If it's for time considerations, I can see it. Newbs will almost always be slower. But there's the catch: if new players don't get practice, they'll never get faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
What? He said miracles is super easy to pilot. He didn't talk about time considerations.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
If your opponents do not punish you, they are sub-par. It doesn't mean the deck is easy to play. If you made a ton of mistakes you would probably get blown out by someone who knew what they were doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
yeah if you made a ton of mistakes and you knew it, ur opponents aren't well versed in LegacyQuote:
Originally Posted by kentheide
It didn't feel like they were bad, their decks just lacked the capability to punish anything I did within the timeframe they were allowed.
I also make a habit of playing very quickly, and who knows, maybe I didn't play as bad as I thought. It just felt extremely high powered compared to any other deck I have played, and I was not punished for my mistakes like I tend to be with other decks.
Miracles is an inherently powerful archetype; This is the reason why its been considered the strongest deck in legacy for a long, long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
The deck has so many lines, and ending up in a spot where it doesn't matter what you do and you still win, eventually, is the hard part. The struggle is not winning, it's making sure you aren't dead before you've won. This is also why people don't scoop earlier. You know you've won, but your opponent might believe they have an out.
Did you even read the comment I was replying to?Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
Quote:
Everyone else, Reid Duke among them, are just trying to not get people to play Miracles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Quote:
Originally Posted by kentheide
These 2 posts say it best. Don't get complacent, ironclad8690. One of the drawbacks to having Legacy be more accessible via MTGO is that less experienced players will be able to buy into decks without necessarily being proficient pilots of them because the cost is less so they're more free to buy what they want. I can go on XMage and do well with Miracles, but get smacked around at an SCG event.Quote:
Originally Posted by MiraclesWizard
Alright, well I will keep playing and let you guys know what I find.
Also, would there be any interest in recorded matches on youtube or something like that? I know a ton of pretty experienced players stream, but it might be cool to go back and watch matches in playlist form, sort of like how gigapatrick does on the Lands forum.
That'd be interested, yes. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
I almost feel guilty playing this deck. So many mistakes, so few punishments. Miracles is basically "Tier 0".
I think it's due to R&D's focus on overpowered creatures; in my mind Terminus is the strongest card in the deck.
It just attacks both creature based and spell based decks on the best axes possible: Terminus/Swords/Snap/Planeswalkers vs attack decks and countertop vs spell based decks. I am thinking the most challenging and skill testing of all the matchups is the mirror.
Speaking of which, how many of each card from the board do you want in the mirror?
I was thinking from my earlier list you would want:
+3 Blast effects, +1-2 Flusterstorm, +1-2 Clique, +2 Wear// Tear
I know you would cut 4 STP and some amount of Terminus (probably want to leave some for mentor?), and maybe cut some FoW? Or does that just sound wrong?
For a mirror match, Mentor seems like the place you want to be. It's creatures that you don't have to invest too much mana into, which is ideal due to terminus. And if you think they are going to side out some Terminus, it seems like a great way to level.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
On top of Mentor, Force of Will Smith feels like a double edged sword. On one hand, you can Mentor and tap out and not have to worry about terminus. But on the other hand, you are using up precious cards. In the mirror, that feels like quite the drawback, seems as how the deck thrives on card advantage.
From what I've heard though, getting Countertop first means a win in the mirror, so maybe FoW is more important?
So, if we don't want to lose card advantage, but still want lots of counters, could Daze be a viable Sideboard card for the mirror? It doesn't seem like we care a whole bunch about having more mana than our opponent, but we do card about manipulating their card choices. Turn 1 Top, Daze their Turn 1 top feels really powerful to me. Or even they turn 1 top, you turn 1 top, they turn 2 try to Counterbalance, you Daze the counterbalance. That seems powerful too. Now they don't have a Balance, but you don't ha e a land. However, you got to keep the land and they now have to use resources to dig for another Counterbalance.
Ironclad, you're literally in every thread I follow :PQuote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
We also seem to switch decks at around the same time.. lol
Counterbalance is by far the best card in the matchup, followed by Jace. You need more than just three blasts to stop these, Force of Will is a necessity.
So is Mentor that important? I just want to see where my initial impression was of the mirror.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
Just punted like 20 times and still was able to beat Andrea Mengucci playing BUG Thing in the Ice, 2-0. I tried to record the match but my screen recorder bit the bigota. Maybe he will post the video lol.
Punts included:
accidentally clicking cancel for a terminus trigger that I wanted to cast.
playing a snapcaster into an untapped deathrite shaman and losing my only target in GY.
revealing several cards to counterbalance accidentally when I didn't need to.
and many more. Nahiri puts such a fast clock on him that there wasn't really much he could do.
I've never found Mentor to be all that valuable in the mirror, but I know a lot of people just bring him in anyway so I like to keep in at least 2 STP for him (and Clique and sometimes Snap) and some number of Terminus for when someone thinks it's safe to overextend with Mentor. It's also just a good safety card when your opponent ETAs. As for wincons in the mirror, Jace should be your priority. Protect him at all costs.
I have a lot of experience in the Miracles mirror. I personally board out all 4 STP/ Terminus, 1 plains and 1 Jace (always leave 1 in) and sometimes 1 ETA (always leaving one in). If u dont keep in ETA/Mentor boarding out both Plains is fine..You can board out all removal if you play Izzet Staticaster, as this will deal with most creatures (SCM/V. Clique/Mentor) together with REB. Also 1-2 ETA as another out to overpower a resolved Mentor or win through CB lock (preferably w fluster backup).
If they don't run Mentor its best to be on the draw if ur capable..
I recorded the last two videos of my league with a new (functional this time) screen recorder.
Here's a link to the playlist, which contains a 2-0 vs Esper Blade and a 2-1 vs Belcher.
Here were the results of this league, another pretty easy 4-1:
Eldrazi: 0-2
Infect: 2-0
BUG Thing in the Ice (like BoM top 8 list, Andrea Mengucci playing it): 2-0
Esper Stoneblade: 2-0
Belcher: 2-1
I don't think you can make the "bad player" argument about the guy who got 2nd at the most recent pro tour. Despite some epic punts I still got there without dropping a game. I love this deck, and I am going to keep farming these tickets.
I think I would have wished for some sound and maybe commentary? Probably not a huge deal thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690