[Deck] Goblins

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Actually I came once across a situation where ReB costed me the game where Pyroblast would have won. I was on the draw against Merfolk. He played land, I played Lackey. He played Phantasmal Image and copied Lackey. Since it was Red, Red Elemental Blast could not target it. Pyroblast would have killed the red Phantasmal Image lackey, and I'd have won.
Nevertheless, there are decks that play Cabal Therapy, so splitting them is a good idea.

I think the discussion about Caverns is valid. Do you mind posting where I can find the list, and f there is, matchups and comments? Thanks.
Edit: Got it. Nevermind. 20 lands sounds awfully low for the deck with the splash, even without Caverns....

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This occurred for me as well at a SCG: Open, but the Image was Vialed in and able to block my Goblin Piledriver.

Pyroblast can kill Phantasmal Image if it's not blue, whereas Red Elemental Blast cannot. But I still split them up for these reasons:

1) Cabal Therapy (very unlikely)

2) Meddling Mage (I can see decks wanting to get around Cavern of Souls by making you unable to cast your Goblin Ringleaders.)

3) Surgical Extraction (very unlikely)

There are more reasons I can't recall, but suffice to say that the reasons for splitting are rare, but may add up to help someday. Then again, I've already had my Red Elemental Blast almost cost me an important match by not being Pyroblast...

Does anyone have a good reason why Red Elemental Blast does something Pyroblast doesn't?!

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Originally Posted by superspaceshooter

Does anyone have a good reason why Red Elemental Blast does something Pyroblast doesn't?!

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There's a whole article about it! :) http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l..._Town_REB.html

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Originally Posted by Avatara

@Geeksire you could start by explaining why you made the changes to Enrico Fanciullini (1st out of 38) list that I posted two pages ago. Rakdos Charm allows you to connect lackey through DRS (which is very relevant right now), cleans graveyards and destroys artifacts. I think we can argue if Cavern of Souls is being over hyped.. the meta game has adjusted to it and goblin is now tier (2-)3; decks run more removal and stuff like DRS or even sweepers. Before decks adjusted it gave us an edge, but I dunno if that still outweighs the disadvantages (Wastelands not being able to cast non goblin splash cards). Enrico Fanciullini placed 1st place (which is as far as I know the only list that did so recently) without it so there might be some truth to the argument.

There is no difference for Goblins; only for Storm combo decks. Since Red Elemental Blast can target non blue spells while pyroblast can't.

/edit: in the past opponents often had to two (Force + pitch) for one our lackey.. now they often can't counter it because of CoS; so they just one for one it with a removal spell (or simply block it with DRS 0-1). We kinda lost early game card advantage there. I dunno if it's always the best choice to play an uncountable first turn lackey versus aggro-control.

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Regarding the changes I made to Enrico was mostly the inspiration I got from his deck since it did great in tournament style, but in no way did I change it to be a replica of Enrico Fanciullini. (I should have gave credit to him, but was late at night when I posted this.) The only things I made "changes" to "my" deck are the Earwig Squad (which I never knew about until you posted it--works great,) the amount of lands he had, and the Lightning Crafter. The Lightning Crafter was a card I had never put in my deck since it was not fast enough but when I saw Enrico achieve 1st place, somebody who used this specific card, I thought it could do great things in my deck as well as Earwig Squad--both worked wonders in my deck!

Nonetheless, I have always loved splashing black in my deck and for somebody to say that I made changes to Enrico Fanciullini's deck should know that I am not a person that comes on this forum to make a copy and change a wee-bit of someones work to be mine. Be respectful the next time you say something like that and as for myself, I should make sure to give credit where it is due.

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Originally Posted by Sandro95

There's a whole article about it! :) http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l..._Town_REB.html

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Thank you! These things actually matter a lot to me...when you are constantly grinding a deck (especially in Legacy), you want to know the perfect cards. Here's the rundown:

Red Elemental Blast is better against cards like Misdirection and Spellskite.

Pyroblast is better against Phantasmal Image.

Postboard, I don't expect too many Misdirections and Spellskites, but certainly could see Phantasmal Image, particularly against Merfolk (where you are boarding in these types of cards.)

In Goblins, Pyroblast is better than Red Elemental Blast. If I'm using up 4 sideboard slots for Blasts, 3/1 in favor of Pyroblast might be perfect (since it's better but you don't want to get COMPLETELY stonewalled by "name a card" effects. If you even slightly expect anyone to play one against you in a tournament, go to 2/2. In the dark, maybe 3/1 as mentioned in favor of Pyroblast.

Pyroblast can be misdirected to itself where red blast cannot be

How often are you gonna see Misdirection though? :P I haven't seen it in AGES :P

EDIT: I run a 4/0 split in favor of Pyroblast, actually. I like them quite a lot.

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Originally Posted by B-rad

Pyroblast can be misdirected to itself where red blast cannot be

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This is also not the case. A spell cannot target itself. Of course, it can be misdirected to any permanent, so it's true that Red Elemental Blast is better against Misdirection. I would even wager Misdirection a fine card for Legacy because of Abrupt Decay and Hymn to Tourach being decently popular. I'm just not sure there's a matchup that would want to board in Misdirection against you (as the Goblins player.)

I just realized that Misdirection works against both Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast (since you can redirect them to Misdirection upon its resolution, thus countering them in a sense), so that's not even a good reason for Red Elemental Blast over Pyroblast. Spellskite is still a reason though.

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Originally Posted by superspaceshooter

I just realized that Misdirection works against both Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast (since you can redirect them to Misdirection upon its resolution, thus countering them in a sense), so that's not even a good reason for Red Elemental Blast over Pyroblast. Spellskite is still a reason though.

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It can be yes but a REB can only be redirected to another blue spell. This means one way or another something is going away. With P'blast you can have it target something that is not blue and fizzle.

Alright, that discussion is startiung get out of hand :-D
I add the link to the OP (Sideboard > Others > Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast).

@ B-rad:
I would like how your decklist (whatever it looked like) treated you at the last SCG toruney, which was - last weekend if I'm not mistaken?

I just want to make sure people know how Misdirection effects work. Basically, Misdirection can redirect a spell's target to itself if it itself (Misdirection) is a legal target. Since Misdirection is blue, it can redirect both Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast to itself upon its resolution. When the spell it redirected goes to resolve, it fizzles due to not having a target (since Misdirection is no longer on the stack). If we're talking about a Misdirection effect that isn't blue, like Ricochet Trap, then it wouldn't be able to redirect Red Elemental Blast, but of course could redirect Pyroblast. So a rundown of what Misdirection can and can't redirect:

Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast: Yes, it can redirect these to itself since it's blue.
Abrupt Decay: No, because Misdirection isn't a nonland permanent.
Essence Scatter: No, because Misdirection isn't a creature spell.

I hope this helps!

I finally understand how it works now. :)

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Originally Posted by B-rad

Pyroblast can be misdirected to itself where red blast cannot be

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Incorrect: both spells can be misdirected to Misdirection, which has the effect of countering them (when you're choosing the counterspell mode).

REB is better against Misdirection when you're choosing the Vindicate Mode.

This Misdirection thread is badass.


On a serious note, anyone tried out any stupid/fun tech lately?

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

This Misdirection thread is badass.


On a serious note, anyone tried out any stupid/fun tech lately?

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The last "funny" thing I tried out was Boros Charm. It was worth the slot, but then again it's....too cute. It sometimes is a blank draw, where conventional spotremoval isn't.
If I wanted to have some fun with Goblins, I'd be toying around with
* Warren Instigator
* Kiki-Jiki, TMB
* Lightning Crafter
* Krenko, MB
Those guys are always fun to play with.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

The last "funny" thing I tried out was Boros Charm. It was worth the slot, but then again it's....too cute. It sometimes is a blank draw, where conventional spotremoval isn't.
If I wanted to have some fun with Goblins, I'd be toying around with
* Warren Instigator
* Kiki-Jiki, TMB
* Lightning Crafter
* Krenko, MB
Those guys are always fun to play with.

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I'd try to have Kiki, Crafter, Prospector and Shooter on my deck, and try to combo-kill my opponent every game.

You could also use Bolts and Goblins Grenades. Always had fun when did that. Nothing better than taking 13 life from someone just like that.

The solution to Deathrite shaman's, I say start running Tarfires, make those lackey's connect, on top of that, it kills Stoneforge Mystic, Grim lavamancer, etc etc etc, still kills enough relevant stuff.

I'm currently toying with
10 mountain
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
4 cavern of souls
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4 aether vial
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4 goblin lackey
4 mogg war marshal
4 goblin piledriver
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 goblin ringleader
4 tarfire
4 gempalm incinerator
1 krenko, mob boss
1 stingscourger
[Stingscourger mostly because of opposing Show and Tell]

Other targets are in the sideboard, like:
tuktuk scrapper
goblin sharpshooter
vexing shusher
siege-gang commander
goblin chieftain
[against Engineered Plague]

(talkin' about tech) Those of you still running the green splash should considering running a singleton Pendelhaven. I think it's worth it now that DRS is big in legacy.

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Originally Posted by Avatara

(talkin' about tech) Those of you still running the green splash should considering running a singleton Pendelhaven. I think it's worth it now that DRS is big in legacy.

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I have considered that before. The thing is that a single Pendelhaven is just too random. You don't have it in hand when you need it and with 4 Caverns and Wastelands, I wanna have more red sources to be able to cast Incinerator and or P.Fire (my solution to DRS). Espeiclally since we agree that Chieftain is good right now, Pendelhaven has a big dissynergy...

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Originally Posted by BigBopper

I have considered that before. The thing is that a single Pendelhaven is just too random. You don't have it in hand when you need it and with 4 Caverns and Wastelands, I wanna have more red sources to be able to cast Incinerator and or P.Fire (my solution to DRS). Espeiclally since we agree that Chieftain is good right now, Pendelhaven has a big dissynergy...

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It's no more random than a single off Karakas. Btw Cavern of Souls is also anti synergistic with every colored sideboard card (and even some in the main deck) and makes you lose card advantage early game (2 for 1 Lackey) yet people still run it as a four off.. Despite a deck placing 1st (out of 38) without Cavern of Souls. I'm not saying to replace a red producing land with mountain. And btw it's not generally agreed upon that Chieftain is better than Warchief.

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Originally Posted by Avatara

It's no more random than a single off Karakas. Btw Cavern of Souls is also anti synergistic with every colored sideboard card (and even some in the main deck) and makes you lose card advantage early game (2 for 1 Lackey) yet people still run it as a four off.. Despite a deck placing 1st (out of 38) without Cavern of Souls. I'm not saying to replace a red producing land with mountain. And btw it's not generally agreed upon that Chieftain is better than Warchief.

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I can see your point, although a Karakas can do more for me in late game drawn off deck than the Pendelhaven, can it not? Cavern of Souls makes half of the meta having dead hands and draws against goblins-there is no point not to run it, but that's a different story.
I also did not say to play Chieftain over Warchief, but that there is a general consensus in here to have a MD chieftain, other than a card like Sharpshooter, for instance. But I can see me ripping Pendelhaven from the top of my daeck, having my singleton Chieftain in play or post-board even a Boartusk liege...