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Dark depths/thespian stage is a real thing. Ive been using the dd/ts combo on various occasions...
stalled ground game.
A hail mary throw against a lethal turn.(outraced a projenitus in play).
Someone mentioned a few pages back that maze of it saves you 1 turn. But playing the dd combo just finishes and wins the game for you.
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Unless your Knight doesn't stick and you are stuck with one part of the combo.
Or they Waste in response to the trigger.
Or they Karakas/Jace bounce the Marit Lage.
I could go on.
Yes Stage/Depths will sometimes win you the game. And yes, it will also sometimes lose you the game.
More importantly, every time you go for Marit Lage try asking yourself the question: could I have won another way?
And the question I always asked myself when I had a combo piece in my opening hard: what other card could that have been?
For stalled boards I have equipment, Mother of Runes, Sigarda and Elspeth.
Cards that are all good on their own as well, and all improve the deck in general.
Sigarda is the worst here, but just Knight-fetch up a Cradle and Zenith for X=5 once. Trust me, it feels good.
(Edit: you shouldn't run into Progenitus when you play in a normal competitive tournament.)
I'm really not losing anything by running the Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage combo. Again, it's there for when I need to win ASAP or if the ground gets stalled. It's a 2 card investment that has a much higher rate of return than if I ran +1 Path to Exile, +1 Cavern of Souls (which is what I cut for the combo). Here's my list:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Crop Rotation
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian’s Stage
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Gaea’s Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
Also, there's no such thing as getting "stuck" with one part of the combo as the combo is just a land that taps for mana. This isn't the same as having a fatty stuck in your hand with no Show and Tell. If I draw Thespian's Stage and no Dark Depths... I just play the land and proceed to play Magic? And I'm running 4 KotR + 1 Crop Rotation as tutors should I elect to go for the 20/20... but I can just as easily not and still proceed with Maverick's normal plan of attack. It adds versatility, flexibility while taking NOTHING away from the core of the deck. For the 3-color Maverick lists, I understand not having room for the combo, but for the GW lists, I'm baffled as to why everyone isn't running this. It's been nothing but excellent for me.
Last time I heard... elves are used in a normal competitive tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
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Dark Depths doesn't, so in that case, yes it is exactly the same as a fatty in hand with no S&T. And Stage doesn't tap for G or W, so it can stop you from playing Magic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Main deck. This card is very doubtful as a main deck choice if you DON'T run the combo. So I feel you have invested 3 cards already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
I'm sure it has been for you. But for me it has been a win-more mostly. And the notion that it takes away nothing is just a misconception, as proven above. It's a trade-off, a pro's/con's analysis. You feel it has more pro's, I feel it has more con's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Comparing lists, something else caught my eye: you play Maze of Ith main. Why?
You are already playing a couple of combo lands. Don't you think you should take that thing to the sideboard?
In total the differences are:
+1 Maze of Ith, +1 Stage, +1 Depths, +1 Crop Rotation, +1 Jitte, +1 Cavern of Souls, +1 Scryb Ranger (60 cards)
-1 SoFaI, -1 SoFaF, -3 SFM, -2 Fetch lands, -1 Birds of Paradise (61 cards)
Trade-off:
My early turns run more smoothely (more stable mana base, one extra mana dork).
I have more staying power in fair matchups (SFM into equipment = card advantage).
You have the combo for more explosive kills.
(We cannot discuss sideboards yet, since you didn't post yours.)
Edit: A Il_casual: Elves shouldn't need Progenitus against you. They swarm the board and Hoof you.
You try to prevent that by using Teeg, Canonist and removal. Teeg effectively stops Zenith and Order, so getting Teeg online is the priority.
If I were an Elves player, I doubt I'd actually side in Progenitus. I would rather have ways to prevent Teeg from getting into play/removing Teeg from play.
What am I missing?
I've always disliked SFM in Maverick. It prevents us from advancing our board for a turn and we'll be receiving all of the SFM-TNN splash hate while be being not as well equipped to handle it (ie. we don't run counters or discard). I'd much rather just curve out/GSZ for 2 on turn 3 than hold up mana for SFM activation.
Maze of Ith is still pretty good. It's served as a pseudo-Karakas in the Reanimator matchup and with Thespian's Stage, having 2 Maze of Ith can just outgrind the opponent until I either (a.) overwhelm the board with dudes/Jitte or (b.) swing with a 20/20.
One card I tinkered with for a minute was Bow of Nylea. That thing was basically Jitte #3 whenever I got it on board, it literally took over games while not even needing a creature to do so. All abilities were always relevant and it made our small-ish dudes much more potent on offense. I wish I could run it, maybe I could cut the Maze of Ith for it... idk, Maze is sooooo good when it's good.
If I have an engineered plague in play.they cant use craterhoof to kill me. Hence the need for progenitus as an out for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
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Discussing GW here. Not that I'd ever consider playing that combo in a Gwb shell though. Straining the mana base waaay too much for my taste. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by IL_casual
@Arsenal: in certain metas Maze can be awesome, but where I'm from, Maze is useful maybe in 50% of the matches tops.
I do like SFM, but mostly because I like equipment a lot in this deck. I do wait with casting SFM usually. It's just lovely to have a row of guys, Knight-fetch up Cradle, cast SFM, cast a Sword, equip it to a guy and strike, all in one turn. Also, if there's other usueful stuff to do, I'll use my turn for that of course. Comparing lists, my SFMs are your Maze, Depths and Crop Rotation. those don't develop your board much either, unless you get the combo out obviously. :cool:
Right, but the difference is that my cards insta-win out of nowhere whereas SFM --> Equipment is probably the most prepared for line of play in Legacy right now. Pre-TNN, SFM never felt right in Maverick (similar to Tarmogoyf) to me. Post-TNN, with SFM/Equipment hate on the ready by every deck, I'd certainly not run it.
I'm more concerned with the TNN hate (Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution).Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Artifact hate is fine. It'll leave me a Squire up. And I board Witness against those decks usually, so I can retrieve lost swords.
Edit: I don't agree with your "instawin" by the way. There's about a million things that stop the combo, two of which are played by around 50% of the meta (StP, Wasteland).
Then you obviously haven't played with the combo. If you have, you'd know that your opponent's will rarely sit on their Wastelands versus you in the early/mid game and spot removal doesn't work when I have Mother of Runes. And if they are sitting on their Wastelands, not taking you off colors, then you're winning that battle by just playing out Maverick unmolested by mana disruption.
@Arsenal - while I typically like what you have to say, and hold no malice toward the state of Wisconsin (how happy are the Badgers to not close out the season against PSU anymore?), I keep seeing your name and it makes me want to vomit, see red. I'm a newly made Tottenham fan, and Arsenal is the devil. North London, wut?!
I hope you fall to the bottom of every table you participate in.
hahaha, I actually get that alot (I use this name on other forums too). Although to be honest, I'm not much of a soccer (football) fan, but a HUGE Metal Gear Solid fan, so... yeah. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by ahg113
[QUOTE=Asthereal;791284]
Discussing GW here. Not that I'd ever consider playing that combo in a Gwb shell though. Straining the mana base waaay too much for my taste. :wink:
No, we were discussing why progenitus is not supposed to be seen in a "normal competitive" tournament. And I just showed you the reason why they board in one. Hope I was able to help you on that.
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[QUOTE=IL_casual;791380]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
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Maze doesn't tap for mana either, so if you cut a maze for dd, then the opportunity cost of adding the combo is simply a colorless land vs not, which especially in GW isn't really that big a deal. There are ways to interact with the combo obviously, but it has in general proven strong to me. If they try to use wasteland to disrupt the combo, just get a wasteland of your own before going off. You can protect your thespian's stage by copying a basic in response to wasteland. Mom/safekeeper can protect the merit lage itself, and Most of maverick's early creatures will draw removal anyways, leaving them with hopefully few in hand. There will be games where you are forced to go for the combo or die, and they have outs to it, but those games are probably games you aren't winning, nor games where a single maze would have won you the game anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
@Il_casual: If you play GW Mav, you can only encounter Progenitus against Elves, IF they board it in.
I feel they shouldn't board it in against GW Mav, because Hoof is usually better, and you have answers to Order.
Hence my remark "You shouldn't encounter Progenitus in competitive play".
@Arsenal: Sure, if you draw the nuts and your opponent wastes his Wasteland on something else, all will work out. Note that your Knight doesn't always survive either. And if you get to use your Knight twice without getting it killed by the opponent, the Knight could usually have won by itself as well. Except for against a live Rest in Peace, but we have Pridemages for that thing.
I really feel it's very situational. Having an active Knight that doesn't get killed by the opponent is usually enough anyway. Let's agree to disagree. :smile:
I feel like bringing in progenitus against maverick is a good idea game 2 considering most of mavericks hopes of winning are etgersworn canonist and jitte. Progenitus doesn't care about either but is soft to gaddock teeg so it really depends on what hate the elves player boards against.
I'd bring in Prog vs. Maverick for sure.
[QUOTE=Asthereal;791465]@Il_casual: If you play GW Mav, you can only encounter Progenitus against Elves, IF they board it in.
I feel they shouldn't board it in against GW Mav, because Hoof is usually better, and you have answers to Order.
Hence my remark "You shouldn't encounter Progenitus in competitive play".
Maybe you should play more competitive tournaments then, as any decent maverick player with enough exposure would know that elves' gameplan against maverick is progenitus.
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