[Primer] Elves!

Yes, you should have taken the S&T. The reason is because a.) opponent has both combo parts, and the only thing that they need to play it is also the highest concentration of card type, b.) you auto-lose to ENorn, c.) you are a green mana away from being able to deal with Needle and having a decent chance at winning the game.

At that point, opponent must waste his blue mana source digging for an enabler, buys you time to deal with Needle or go off. What was his turn 1 land drop?

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Yes, you should have taken the S&T. The reason is because a.) opponent has both combo parts, and the only thing that they need to play it is also the highest concentration of card type, b.) you auto-lose to ENorn, c.) you are a green mana away from being able to deal with Needle and having a decent chance at winning the game.

At that point, opponent must waste his blue mana source digging for an enabler, buys you time to deal with Needle or go off. What was his turn 1 land drop?

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

---

His turn 1 was pithing needle on shaman

Sure, what land did he play on turn one to cast the pithing needle?

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Sure, what land did he play on turn one to cast the pithing needle?

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

---

Sorry, didn't read correctly. He played an underground sea

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Yes, you should have taken the S&T. The reason is because a.) opponent has both combo parts, and the only thing that they need to play it is also the highest concentration of card type, b.) you auto-lose to ENorn, c.) you are a green mana away from being able to deal with Needle and having a decent chance at winning the game.

At that point, opponent must waste his blue mana source digging for an enabler, buys you time to deal with Needle or go off. What was his turn 1 land drop?

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

---

I would agree with this logic. While it is good to be proactive in these situations, I feel like you auto-lose to a lot fewer topdecks/brainstorm draws if you take the S&T. At the minimum, this play buys you a clear turn. Even if he brainstorms into another combo piece, he has at most one colored or two colorless mana from a land top-deck. This isn't enough to both send Norn to the yard and reanimate her.

That being said, it also sort of depends on the rest of your hand. What else did you have?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IMarques

I would agree with this logic. While it is good to be proactive in these situations, I feel like you auto-lose to a lot fewer topdecks/brainstorm draws if you take the S&T. At the minimum, this play buys you a clear turn. Even if he brainstorms into another combo piece, he has at most one colored or two colorless mana from a land top-deck. This isn't enough to both send Norn to the yard and reanimate her.

That being said, it also sort of depends on the rest of your hand. What else did you have?

---

I don't remember exactly, but thinking back now, i should ve took the show and tell.
It's not a mistake i'll do again.

Thanks

I am wondering, if I am running Ruric Thar in the sideboard, do I need Taiga in the main?

Not really. Your main ways of bringing out Ruric are GSZ/NO, which don't care about red mana, and you also have DRS and Birchlore Rangers to make R, in the case that Ruric ends up in your hand.

It's safer to have taiga if your shaman or ranger are dead

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chewemy

It's safer to have taiga if your shaman or ranger are dead

---

Except that Taiga is totally worthless if you want to cast Discard postboard or use DRS' lifedrain. A horrible land to open with just to have a fetchable source to hardcast Ruric rather than putting him into play via DRS/Birchlore/NO/GSZ.

edit: Pal, think about getting 6 mana "if shaman or ranger are dead" :/

just play badlands. cast drs, discard, morphs and ruric!

Brainstorm Loses a lot of value without a shuffle effect

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

Except that Taiga is totally worthless if you want to cast Discard postboard or use DRS' lifedrain. A horrible land to open with just to have a fetchable source to hardcast Ruric rather than putting him into play via DRS/Birchlore/NO/GSZ.

edit: Pal, think about getting 6 mana "if shaman or ranger are dead" :/

---

Taiga probably wouldn't be replacing a Bayou, more likely a basic Forest. My list runs 2 Bayou, 2 Forest, 1 Taiga, and 8-9 Fetches, and it seems to work out fine for me.
I have had exactly one game where I had to play the Taiga from my hand and it got Wastelanded, leaving me short on mana the next turn.
I have also had exactly one game where I used the Taiga for red along with Heritage Druid mana to cast Ruric Thar.
I know that's anecdotal, and small sample size, etc., but in my experience it has basically come down to personal preference; would you rather be greedy by running fewer basics, or by relying on creatures to provide your off-color?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snickelfritz

Taiga probably wouldn't be replacing a Bayou, more likely a basic Forest. My list runs 2 Bayou, 2 Forest, 1 Taiga, and 8-9 Fetches, and it seems to work out fine for me.
I have had exactly one game where I had to play the Taiga from my hand and it got Wastelanded, leaving me short on mana the next turn.
I have also had exactly one game where I used the Taiga for red along with Heritage Druid mana to cast Ruric Thar.
I know that's anecdotal, and small sample size, etc., but in my experience it has basically come down to personal preference; would you rather be greedy by running fewer basics, or by relying on creatures to provide your off-color?

---

You know that "personal preference/playstyle" is the MTG Forum code for "I want to run cute/cool stuff for the sake of running it!"?

Given I have no clue about your sample-size, the choice to run a land THAT limited for the sake of HARDCASTING your 1-off Tutor-target in case you draw it, isn't reasonable under aspects of colors the deck really needs to work. For your overall game Taiga is worse than a Basic Forest (Wasteland, Bloodmoon, etc.) or a Pendelhaven (protection + beatdown mode)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

You know that "personal preference/playstyle" is the MTG Forum code for "I want to run cute/cool stuff for the sake of running it!"?

Given I have no clue about your sample-size, the choice to run a land THAT limited for the sake of HARDCASTING your 1-off Tutor-target in case you draw it, isn't reasonable under aspects of colors the deck really needs to work. For your overall game Taiga is worse than a Basic Forest (Wasteland, Bloodmoon, etc.) or a Pendelhaven (protection + beatdown mode)

---

This. The question is not whether to replace a basic land with Taiga/Badlands/whatever, it's whether to replace Pendelhaven with these things. Generally, I feel like Pendelhaven's utility far outweighs the chance to hardcast my one-of tutor target *that is only good in combo/burn matches*. In those cases, hardcasting is probably too slow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IMarques

This. The question is not whether to replace a basic land with Taiga/Badlands/whatever, it's whether to replace Pendelhaven with these things. Generally, I feel like Pendelhaven's utility far outweighs the chance to hardcast my one-of tutor target *that is only good in combo/burn matches*. In those cases, hardcasting is probably too slow.

---

Another aspect I missed to mention. Thanks for that.

If you play Ruric MD, the advantages of running a Taïga by far outweight the consequences.
Last Sunday I won a tournament (and 2 byes for Lille) and tried to hardcast Ruric 3 times by fetching a Taïga. 2 out of these 3 games I would have loose without it (the third one Ruric get countered vs UR delver).

But it is a configuration where you run Ruric in around 70% of your games.

If you only play it in SB, you will play with it around 30% of the games, and an additional fetch is probably better.

As it is a fetchable source, you cannot really compare it to Pendleheaven.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dte

As it is a fetchable source, you cannot really compare it to Pendelheaven.

---

So it's fetchable as your 5th land if you don't have to cast Ruric from hand. That's not particular great in my books. Neither is drawing it in your opener or as topdeck against Wasteland compared with a basic and worse than Pendelhaven against anything which requires the beatdown plan.

It's only good if you have Ruric in hand and no GSZ/Birchlore/DRS available to get an elf to produce that damn red mana which is a damn marginal scenario in my books ;)

I play with main deck Ruric and think the Taiga is completely unnecessary for him. Having access to him with NO as early as T2 (although usually T3) against Storm, Burn or G1 against Delver where Hoof is not lethal yet is fantastic.

In cases where he is drawn he is virtually always castable off DRS or Birchlore (I prefer to run 2) which is unlikely to be until T4+. Pendelhaven is much more useful for the Beats plan against Miracles etc.

I consider Taiga for just Ruric to be greedy if not downright bad and should only really be in the deck if you are going with the Blood Moon or other Red sideboard plan which is another discussion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by QBChaz

In cases where he is drawn he is virtually always castable off DRS or Birchlore (I prefer to run 2) which is unlikely to be until T4+.

---

It is quite common to be able to cast Ruric T3. DRS does not survive that well vs Burn/delver variants (BUG, RUG, UR, URW). Vs BUG (delver or shardless), an opposing DRS prevent you to get colored mana if you do not have an untap effect available.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by QBChaz

I consider Taiga for just Ruric to be greedy if not downright bad and should only really be in the deck if you are going with the Blood Moon or other Red sideboard plan which is another discussion.

---

I tried Blood moon, but wasn't that convinced. I now prefer choke, wich have often a similar effect but is far less a problem for us. If you have any ideas of interesting red cards to put in elf SB, I'm very interested.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

So it's fetchable as your 5th land if you don't have to cast Ruric from hand. That's not particular great in my books. Neither is drawing it in your opener or as topdeck against Wasteland compared with a basic and worse than Pendelhaven against anything which requires the beatdown plan.

It's only good if you have Ruric in hand and no GSZ/Birchlore/DRS available to get an elf to produce that damn red mana which is a damn marginal scenario in my books ;)

---

I fully agree that Taïga is the worst land in the deck.
What I disagree with, is that the lack of Red is so marginal. DRS is too often not a very reliable source of mana (because of removal or DRS). Especially now with DTT everywhere, lands tend to magically disappear from grave as an answer for DRS activations.

If you have enough mana to cast GSZ into birchlore and Ruric in the same turn, you probably had some interesting things you could have done before with your GSZ (Ooze, WRP, draw engine) or you're probably very close to be able to GSZ into Regal/hoof.