[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

4 SDT seems excessive, 2-3 seems like the sweet spot, for me at least. I agree with painful truths being raw CA that we need in some situations.

@Echelon: I read your comment a page or so back that was thoroughly assaulting me on a personal level and I thought about it before responding. I am not sure what you thought when you felt that was ok to say but know that I wasn't personally attacking you. I was being sarcastic and don't use "Connotation isn't inherent over the internet" because I am consistently sarcastic. Then to go immediately after Rubble when he is probably one of the most positive personalities on this thread is not acceptable. Your outburst is totally uncharacteristic of the understanding culture we have cultivated in this thread. We meaning each and every person that has contributed to this deck. I understand you and others are working hard on your goal to make the deck better through the means you best understand and I would never stifle that.

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I missed the sarcasm and that's my bad. I honestly am sorry. By nature I tend to turn into a charging bull when offended and that is not cool.

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Originally Posted by Dissection

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I appreciate your post, but Ricardio is right. I read something and took that the wrong way. In turn, I performed a bullcharge. That was not OK. It's my mistake, not his. I'm in the wrong here.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Miracles needs special attention to be beatable. I'm going to set this down here, in bold, because of how important I feel this is:

Opting out of the Miracles matchup is not viable. We can throw away a lot of matchups. He can say eh, I feel like losing to Sneak/Show today. Hell, every time we set foot in a tournament room, we're acknowledge that we're basically open season for anyone who wants to play Belcher, Oops, MUD (not eldrazi), 12post, and Reanimator. Every single one of those decks preys on us super hard, and while we CAN win vs them, yes, certainly, it is not easy, it is not fun, and it is not something that we will prepare for.

Miracles is likely to be one of the most popular decks at GP's Columbus and Prague. Miracles is likely to gain a tremendous amount of people playing it following Eternal Masters -- I expect a lot of the deck to be in that set, and it requires relatively few duals compared to most decks, plus it has a lot of overlap with Modern in its staples. It's very attractive for people just getting into the format to build the deck. We simply cannot afford to dismiss the Miracles matchup -- if we were to do so, I believe it would waste all of the effort that Echelon, Navsi, Brael, and everyone else has put into rebuilding the deck from the math up over the past week.

I firmly believe that Slaughter Games is one of the best ways to attack the deck. Jace is basically the entire problem. We have no good ways of dealing with him. We can try to run Pulse/Vindicate/Unmaking, but those cards can only be run as a 2-of in some combination at most, and since all of them can be countered, it's unlikely that they will be able to punch through the counterwall and actually make it to Jace. We can try Mistcutter Hydra, but then we run into the problem of Swords, Path, Snap+spot, and Terminus -- or even just being blocked by Snap or Containment Priest and then disposed of at sorcery speed. We could try Banefire and just burning them out of the game, or fucking Gaea's Revenge them out. Tsunami, while disingenuous with Carpet of Flowers, is still lights out for them -- I don't like Choke because it dies too much. Shardless can get out of it via Decay off of Forest/Swamp (or just drawing lands), which they're worried about because Blood Moon already anyway, and Miracles is boarding in Wear/Tear vs us ANYWAY, so why give them another target.

The 8post version was originally worked on as a way to beat Miracles, but even going for a Cloudpost hypermana option is less attractive vs Mentor, because they actually have a super relevant and reasonable clock. Like, you die in two turns, max, when they have a Mentor out. I've died in one turn before. It happens -- sometimes they just play a billion Brainstorms and Ponders and Swords their last token because really do they care at that point.

Stripping their wincons and attacking their deck is still the best way to beat them, I feel. Slaughter is the best element of this, because it doesn't get countered and it doesn't use the graveyard. I am not sure how else to attack them. Gaddock Teeg did very little, I felt. Boarding in cards that beat Mentor feels awful when you can't beat Jace. Tireless Tracker lets you draw 2-3 cards on average, which is nice -- and my r6 opponent commented that Tracker and Painful Truths were very worrying to him, because it's bad for Miracles to fight a deck with a lot of raw card advantage. I'm reminded that Shardless has a positive win rate vs Miracles, so maybe we need more Ancestral Recalls...I don't feel like that beats Jace, though. We'd need to be able to pressure it somehow, and we can't really do that into Terminus.

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Damn, this thread moves fast. Anyway...

I don't think Slaughter Games is a bad solution, but it doesn't do anything against Jace on board, and I don't know if I want to bet that I'll draw my 2-of in the board before they draw their 3-4 of and stick one. If we are taking the matchup seriously, SG is clearly a must-have and good tool, but has to come with something to threaten a jace that resolves.

For this reason, I still think Sorin, Lord of Innistrad is the best card to have against Miracles in BGW. It is basically a reverse Bitterblossom that closes fast when you need it (emblem) and threatens whatever they put on the board. My build has two main, just because I'm essentially ceding combo matchups and want to dominate anything fair, including miracles, then just board into what turns out to be a different deck for games 2 & 3 against combo decks. Though I have not tried the Taiga/SG package yet, I think that's my next move because I think it just solves a ton of problems.

Also, I never would've thought Tracker had any chance of making it in Legacy until I saw it in action at the Pro Tour. Card is very good and can run away with the game a la Young Pyromancer. Looking forward to hearing how it works out for Legacy players.

Speaking of cards that take over games, I have been playing a Bant Deathblade deck with a Titania and that thing is a straight up get out of jail free card. I don't know if it's as good when you don't also have Knight and Wasteland but every time I look at my Nic Fit build I want to include the package with Safekeeper (since it also gets me access to Teeg lock vs. Miracles).

Trouble is running into a space issue with Rhinos & Meren & Titania & Sigarda.... and Dragonlord Dromoka, which is also a really good anti-Miracles card.... and Thragtusk. Seems like there might be a difference in philosophy emerging between jamrhinos.dec and a more traditional ramp/zenith deck (that may also just want Pod as an extra GSZ effect for value).

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Originally Posted by Echelon

I like your approach!

To recap everything so far:

Requirements:
- Must be able to go over the top of most opponents
- Must be able to handle/mitigate mana denial strategies
- Must be able to break through lock pieces
- Must be able to handle opposing threats on the board
- Manabase must be able to consistently produce green mana on turn 1
- Manabase must be able to consistently produce black mana on turn 1
- Manabase must be able to consistently produce white mana on turn 2
- No card may cost >6 mana
- No card may have triple mana of any 1 colour in its manacost
- GSZ'able cards must have intrinsic value
- Creatures must either provide mandatory utility effects, be very hard to kill or have a very high power/mana ratio
- Ramp slots may not cost >2 mana

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I want to add two more requirements. I mentioned this in a previous post but it probably got lost in my rambling. Every card can either be classified as a Baneslayer (the value is through remaining on the board), a Mulldrifter (the value is in casting), or a Titan (on board and cast provide value). In general, the more Baneslayers you play the better each gets because you overload removal, these are cards that make your opponents removal good like Deathrite Shaman. Mulldrifters get value by making your opponents removal bad like Eternal Witness, these are cards you can play in any amount. Titans are both, and are the most powerful option like Siege Rhino and nearly any Planeswalker. Ideally, when you play Baneslayers you want to play a lot of them, but when you play Mulldrifters/Titans any amount is good.

Rather than state GSZ'able cards need to provide intrinsic value I think we should break down what GSZ should find. For example, a high mana GSZ should get a Titan (Siege Rhino covers this if we stay in white). But we should have an assortment (say 2-3 each) of Baneslayers and Mulldrifters to find with GSZ at lower mana. Most notably, this is where our GSZ utility comes from. Courser, Tracker, DRS, Veteran, and Ooze are examples of Baneslayers, I think we're good on that front. Where we seem to be lacking is in Mulldrifter territory. Eternal Witness is one, Qasali Pridemage is one (QPM could arguably be a Titan though), we probably want one more... the only one that comes to mind is Sakura Tribe Elder, are there others? Note that in white SFM fills this role as a Mulldrifter, but it's not a GSZ target.

So to sum up the requirements:
GSZ'able cards must have intrinsic value

GSZ for 4 or more should include at least # (3?) targets that provide immediate advantage in addition to incremental advantage every turn
GSZ for 3 or less should include at least # (3?) targets that provide instant advantage and # (3?) targets that provide incremental advantage every turn.

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Originally Posted by Brael

Rather than state GSZ'able cards need to provide intrinsic value I think we should break down what GSZ should find. For example, a high mana GSZ should get a Titan (Siege Rhino covers this if we stay in white). But we should have an assortment (say 2-3 each) of Baneslayers and Mulldrifters to find with GSZ at lower mana. Most notably, this is where our GSZ utility comes from. Courser, Tracker, DRS, Veteran, and Ooze are examples of Baneslayers, I think we're good on that front. Where we seem to be lacking is in Mulldrifter territory. Eternal Witness is one, Qasali Pridemage is one (QPM could arguably be a Titan though), we probably want one more... the only one that comes to mind is Sakura Tribe Elder, are there others? Note that in white SFM fills this role as a Mulldrifter, but it's not a GSZ target.

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I think the major benefit of SFM is that she turns all of your Mulldrifters into potential Baneslayers as well. Fetching for Arbor and then suiting up the little tree can turn a game around. Any creature can start to be likewise suited up once you have landed the initial SFM. I feel that Tracker operates as a Titan if you are able to play a land or fetch right after playing him. I don't think any opponent can allow him to live for more than a turn or two or else we just gain overwhelming card advantage.

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Originally Posted by square_two

I think the major benefit of SFM is that she turns all of your Mulldrifters into potential Baneslayers as well. Fetching for Arbor and then suiting up the little tree can turn a game around. Any creature can start to be likewise suited up once you have landed the initial SFM. I feel that Tracker operates as a Titan if you are able to play a land or fetch right after playing him. I don't think any opponent can allow him to live for more than a turn or two or else we just gain overwhelming card advantage.

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In the case of Tireless Tracker, it might act like it has an ETB effect when we play it, but that's not as true when we GSZ it. By GSZ'ing it we need to already be at 4 mana, and then we need to have a 5th to play. Not only is that 5th land harder to get down than the 4th, but if you have the 5th in most situations I think you would rather just play it and GSZ Rhino rather than GSZ Tracker and then get some clues (not in every situation of course, but in many I think you would rather have a threat than CA, the exception being if you're low/out of cards and can pop several clues on the next turn)

Edit: SFM basically adds 3 more cards to the deck that potentially give incremental value. I see the power in it, but it does make other cards weaker. You lose 7 potential green slots by doing so. Note the difference in conversation between the SFM and non SFM builds. The SFM ones are compromising their slot numbers all over the place... less ramp, less removal, less threats, less land in order to accommodate those 7 slots. The biggest problem non SFM builds are having is in figuring out if you want 3 or 4 Rhinos.

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Originally Posted by Brael

In the case of Tireless Tracker, it might act like it has an ETB effect when we play it, but that's not as true when we GSZ it. By GSZ'ing it we need to already be at 4 mana, and then we need to have a 5th to play. Not only is that 5th land harder to get down than the 4th, but if you have the 5th in most situations I think you would rather just play it and GSZ Rhino rather than GSZ Tracker and then get some clues (not in every situation of course, but in many I think you would rather have a threat than CA, the exception being if you're low/out of cards and can pop several clues on the next turn)

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The trick is to only search him when you are flooded. You GSZ him followed by a fetchland and wait. Then fetch in response to the opponent's removal. In many situations this is a much better play than a Rhino in grindy matchups when the opponent most likely has removal and neither player is close to dying.

Tracker is by no means a must-play though. He is a solid mid-game option as a 1-off. I think he is much better than Courser in that role.

edit: probably not funny

Hey, finally came around to make a list:


21 Lands:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept heath
1 marsh flats
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Phyrexian Tower (+1Ramp)

16
3 Veteran Explorer (3 ramp)
3 Deathrite Shaman (3 ramp, 1.5 finisher)
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder (1 ramp)
1 Scavenging Ooze (1 Finisher, 0.5 Interaction)
1 Tireless Tracker (1 CA, 1 Finisher)
1 Eternal Witness (1 CA, 0.5 Finisher)
4 Siege Rhino (4 Finisher)
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons (1 Finisher)

1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis (1 Interaction, 1 CA, 1 Finisher)

2 Path to exile (2 Interaction)
3 Abrupt decay (3 Interaction)
1 Anguished unmaking (1 Interaction)

3 Pernicious deed (3 Interaction, 3 CA)

4 Green Sun’s Zenith (4 Ramp, 4 CA, 4 Finisher)
4 Cabal therapy (4 Interaction)
1 Thoughtseize (1 Interaction)
1 Vindicate (1 Interaction)
2 Painful Truths (2 CA)

3 Sensei’s Divining Top (3 CA)

Ramp: 12
Interaction: 16.5
Filter/CA: 15
Finisher: 14

SB:
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Krosan Grip
2 Carpet of flowers
2 Tsunami
2 Abeyance


The last card added is Scavenging Ooze, but that is more or less a meta call. If someone is worried about slaughter games on Rhino, you can take one rhino out for Thragtusk/Baneslayer or just use the slot I use For Scooze.
The land distribution is 14G/14B/13W.
The lonely Thoughtseize is in there to push the chance for a discard spell in the opener (+1 draw) to around 50%, up from around 40%. A single Gaddock Teeg was better against Storm, but against other decks he’s often a dead card, at least more often than Thoughtseize. I’m still not satisfied with this, but maybe this version just has to accept the game one concede to combo.dec. (or hit some really lucky therapies)
Tracker is awesome in my opinion. He dies to every removal, yes, but against bolt/punishing fire, you just have to play him a bit like ooze, when you can get value out of him (getting him out of bolt range is quite a mana requirement, and not always necessary. Just play him, then play a fetch. He already leaves two clue tokens in that sequence, even if he gets removed. And just think of the shenanigans with Veteran).
I actually don’t get why people think DLD is a good card against miracles. So he gets swords to plowshared in their turn, so what? They can also terminus in their turn, or just have a karakas out. Given their ability to manipulate their draws, I think DLD is absolutely not viable in that matchup.
We really need something against miracles, but the red splash for slaughtergames just feels weird for me. Maybe I'll test it again after I tested Abeyance for a bit.



Bonus: a list with sfm:

21 Lands:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept heath
1 marsh flats
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Phyrexian Tower (+1Ramp)

3 Veteran Explorer (3 ramp)
3 Deathrite Shaman (3 ramp, 1.5 finisher)
3 Stoneforge Mystic (3 CA, 3 Finisher)
1 Tireless Tracker (1 CA, 1 Finisher)
1 Eternal Witness (1 CA, 0.5 Finisher)
1 Thrun, the last troll (1 Finisher)
2 Siege Rhino (2 Finisher)
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons (1 Finisher)

2 Path to exile (2 Interaction)
2 Abrupt decay (2 Interaction)
1 Anguished unmaking (1 Interaction)

3 Pernicious deed (3 Interaction, 3 CA)

4 Green Sun’s Zenith (4 Ramp, 4 CA, 4 Finisher)
4 Cabal therapy (4 Interaction)
1 Thoughtseize (1 Interaction)
2 Painful Truths (2 CA)
1 Vindicate (1 Interaction)

3 Sensei’s Divining Top (3 CA)
1Umezawa’s Jitte (1 Interaction, 1 Finisher)
1Batterskull (1 Finisher)

Ramp: 11
Interaction: 15
Filter/CA: 17
Finisher: 16

The distribution in the categories seems better here. what do you guys think?

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Originally Posted by Tao

The trick is to only search him when you are flooded. You GSZ him followed by a fetchland and wait. Then fetch in response to the opponent's removal. In many situations this is a much better play than a Rhino in grindy matchups when the opponent most likely has removal and neither player is close to dying.

Tracker is by no means a must-play though. He is a solid mid-game option as a 1-off. I think he is much better than Courser in that role.

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But when you're flooded, assuming the opponent doesn't have an answer wouldn't you rather just GSZ for Sigarda and end the game?

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Originally Posted by Brael

Note the difference in conversation between the SFM and non SFM builds. The SFM ones are compromising their slot numbers all over the place... less ramp, less removal, less threats, less land in order to accommodate those 7 slots.

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The point in playing an SFM build are

- You need less ramp because you are playing a 2 mana 4/4 vigilance lifelink.
- You need less removal because jitte is still an amazing machine gun.
- You play much more threats because once you've played an SFM or an equipment, your fetch becomes 4 turn clock as your explorers do.
- You still play 21 land because seriously Why not?

In my actual build I play 3 SFM jitte batterskull that 5 slots. 2 slots shaved from the ramp section (less probability to draw into ramp late game = constitency ?) 2 slots shaved from the threats section (to play 5 more threats that transform our 4 explorer and our 8 fetch into threats, quite the bargain:smile:) one slots shaved form the removal section (so I can play effectively 4 reusable removal ).

Also note that SFM counts as a tutor/CA.

No I don't think SFM build are compromising their slots(I think the main problem is that we are heretics and might be burned for it , but that's religion for you :tongue:)

I have a quick rules question about Tireless Tracker.

If we cast GSZ, they let it resolve, and we get Tracker, they can't interact with it before we play a land because we are holding priority and putting a land doesn't use the stack right?

Bingo. The first chance they get to interact is when the Clue triggers goes on the stack. If you've played a fetchland, you can then crack that fetch and if it does not get Stifled you get a second Clue trigger. Your Tracker might die, but you will end up with 1/2 Clues.

I've been thinking about how to solve the 4 Tops problem. I agree that it's dead in multiples, but I also feel we need it to boost consistency. It's one of the reasons why I included 10 fetchlands - they are 1 tool to make it easier to get rid of excess Tops. Now, a couple of pages back someone mentioned KotR. Since I had a slot left in my deck, that might be an ideal fit to solve the Top problem. It's a GSZ'able reusable way to shuffle your deck turn after turn. This'd ensure you see 3 to 6 new cards every single turn. Now combine that with the fact that GSZ turns any green creature into an automatic 5-off and we have something the rest of the format can't do. There is no single deck that and runs 4 Tops and runs 4 GSZ and ramps into enough mana to abuse both! Let alone with such an extreme amount of shuffling effects! We may even have to clear our a Siege Rhino to make room for another KotR.

I might be on to something here. What do you guys think?

Also, thank you all for your lists and giving the breakdown in categories a go. It's interesting to read how others evaluate cards.

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Originally Posted by maharis

Damn, this thread moves fast. Anyway...

I don't think Slaughter Games is a bad solution, but it doesn't do anything against Jace on board, and I don't know if I want to bet that I'll draw my 2-of in the board before they draw their 3-4 of and stick one. If we are taking the matchup seriously, SG is clearly a must-have and good tool, but has to come with something to threaten a jace that resolves.

For this reason, I still think Sorin, Lord of Innistrad is the best card to have against Miracles in BGW. It is basically a reverse Bitterblossom that closes fast when you need it (emblem) and threatens whatever they put on the board. My build has two main, just because I'm essentially ceding combo matchups and want to dominate anything fair, including miracles, then just board into what turns out to be a different deck for games 2 & 3 against combo decks. Though I have not tried the Taiga/SG package yet, I think that's my next move because I think it just solves a ton of problems.

Also, I never would've thought Tracker had any chance of making it in Legacy until I saw it in action at the Pro Tour. Card is very good and can run away with the game a la Young Pyromancer. Looking forward to hearing how it works out for Legacy players.

Speaking of cards that take over games, I have been playing a Bant Deathblade deck with a Titania and that thing is a straight up get out of jail free card. I don't know if it's as good when you don't also have Knight and Wasteland but every time I look at my Nic Fit build I want to include the package with Safekeeper (since it also gets me access to Teeg lock vs. Miracles).

Trouble is running into a space issue with Rhinos & Meren & Titania & Sigarda.... and Dragonlord Dromoka, which is also a really good anti-Miracles card.... and Thragtusk. Seems like there might be a difference in philosophy emerging between jamrhinos.dec and a more traditional ramp/zenith deck (that may also just want Pod as an extra GSZ effect for value).

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To be fair Dromoka is not that good against miracles..

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Originally Posted by Plm

The point in playing an SFM build are

- You need less ramp because you are playing a 2 mana 4/4 vigilance lifelink.
- You need less removal because jitte is still an amazing machine gun.
- You play much more threats because once you've played an SFM or an equipment, your fetch becomes 4 turn clock as your explorers do.
- You still play 21 land because seriously Why not?

In my actual build I play 3 SFM jitte batterskull that 5 slots. 2 slots shaved from the ramp section (less probability to draw into ramp late game = constitency ?) 2 slots shaved from the threats section (to play 5 more threats that transform our 4 explorer and our 8 fetch into threats, quite the bargain:smile:) one slots shaved form the removal section (so I can play effectively 4 reusable removal ).

Also note that SFM counts as a tutor/CA.

No I don't think SFM build are compromising their slots(I think the main problem is that we are heretics and might be burned for it , but that's religion for you :tongue:)

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Exactly! If you compare the distribution in my two lists above, you'll see that one slot got shaved from ramp, 1.5 from interaction, but CA and Finishers both increased by 2. These numbers don't even consider the possibility of equiping your late-drawn ramp creatures to become threats as well. The only thing I'd like to add in that sfm list is maybe a dryad arbor, for a fetchable equipmentcarrier, and then maybe even a meren. Here are the distributions again:
Rhino list: SFM List:

Ramp: 12 Ramp: 11
Interaction: 16.5 Interaction: 15
Filter/CA: 15 Filter/CA: 17
Finisher: 14 Finisher: 16

Knight dies to decay and can die to bolt when hated on by a DRS, i.e. You can't cut all of the 4 CMC cards with toughness 4 or more

Whoever was talking about baneslayers, muldrifters and Titans. Siege rhino is in no way a Titan, it is a baneslayers. Courser is not a baneslayer its kind of a nothing really, but that's because I'm not at all sold on the card and have no idea why it keeps coming up in discussion. I was hoping the advent of tireless tracker would put that to rest :P

I'm on holiday at the moment and can't really contribute lengthy debate for the next two weeks unfortunately @Echelon. Though I will say I did interpret Ricardio's post to be quite rude/disappointing. Your response to it was a bit over the top, but was founded.

@Plm, sorry I haven't replied, holiday ^^ you asked me about fetching equipment, I usually fetch SoFaI more than Jitte. It's removal, card advantage, creature pump, protection from balefulstrix and is a much faster clock.

@Brael, I'd counter-argue that a lot of the builds without SFM are often wasting those slots on underpowered cute/situational stuff ;) [EDIT miss-read "non-SFM" for SFM", holiday :) ] and I actively don't care for siege rhino in an SFM build anyway, to me his main bonus is his evasion + life gain, he was much more relevant in the pyromancer/burn/true name nemesis hellscape of when treasure Cruise was legal. Now the metagame has shifted to goyf, angler, smasher, baleful strix and terminus. You don't need him in SFM builds because equipment makes all of your creature threatening, I debate between 0-1 rhinos often, not 3-4 :P

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Bingo. The first chance they get to interact is when the Clue triggers goes on the stack. If you've played a fetchland, you can then crack that fetch and if it does not get Stifled you get a second Clue trigger. Your Tracker might die, but you will end up with 1/2 Clues.

I've been thinking about how to solve the 4 Tops problem. I agree that it's dead in multiples, but I also feel we need it to boost consistency. It's one of the reasons why I included 10 fetchlands - they are 1 tool to make it easier to get rid of excess Tops. Now, a couple of pages back someone mentioned KotR. Since I had a slot left in my deck, that might be an ideal fit to solve the Top problem. It's a GSZ'able reusable way to shuffle your deck turn after turn. This'd ensure you see 3 to 6 new cards every single turn. Now combine that with the fact that GSZ turns any green creature into an automatic 5-off and we have something the rest of the format can't do. There is no single deck that and runs 4 Tops and runs 4 GSZ and ramps into enough mana to abuse both! Let alone with such an extreme amount of shuffling effects! We may even have to clear our a Siege Rhino to make room for another KotR.

I might be on to something here. What do you guys think?

Also, thank you all for your lists and giving the breakdown in categories a go. It's interesting to read how others evaluate cards.

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I also thought about a KotR package. The question is, do we use him just for the shuffle effect in a Rhino/SFM/PW Build, or do we go all in on him. Here's a list which has some utility lands and other interactions with him:

22 Lands
4 Verdant catacombs
4 Windswept heath
2 Bayou
1 Dark dephts
2 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian tower (0.5 ramp)
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Thespian’s stage
1 Volrath’s stronghold

4 Sensei’s divining top (4 Filter/CA)

1 Deathrite shaman (1 Ramp, 0.5 Finisher)
1 Sylvan safekeeper (1 Interaction?)
4 Veteran Explorer (4 Ramp)
4 Knight oft he reliquary (4 Finisher, 4 Filter/CA)
1 Tireless Tracker (1 Finisher, 1 Filter/CA)
2 Siege Rhino (2 Finisher)
1 Sigarda, Host of herons (1 Finisher)
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth (1 Finisher)

3 Pernicious deed (3 Interaction, 3 CA)

3 Abrupt decay (3 interaction)
2 Path to exile (2 interaction)

4 Green Suns zenith (4 ramp, 4 CA, 4 Finisher)
4 Cabal therapy (4 interaction)
2 Thoughtseizt (2 interaction)
2 Vindicate (2 interaction)


Ramp: 9.5
Interaction: 17
Filter/CA: 16
Finisher: 13.5

One could cut some interaction here (thoughtseize/decay/vindicate) for one or two more finishers. But this list was just a quick throw-together, maybe it would need more lands. The mana-curve seems a bit awkard too.
Curve:
1CMC: 18
2CMC: 3
3CMC: 10
4CMC: 2
5CMC: 2

@SFM builds: In theory they are great, SFM works with Therapy and BS is a Mana Sink. But for me they have not been working out. I can't even say why. That was just my experience.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Bingo. The first chance they get to interact is when the Clue triggers goes on the stack. If you've played a fetchland, you can then crack that fetch and if it does not get Stifled you get a second Clue trigger. Your Tracker might die, but you will end up with 1/2 Clues.

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That is right. To go more into detail on Fetchland cracking:


- if your opponent is tapped out, you should get as many lands as possible into play right away.
- if your opponent has BG or R or W up and you don't need the Mana right away you should not crack the fetchland because then your opponent can respond to the fetchland trigger with his removal. You can just wait it out. He will be forced to act first because otherwise you will just get your normal land drop next turn. So when he uses his removal you will respond with cracking the Fetchland.
- with Tracker in your deck you should avoid cracking Fetchlands in general until you need the Mana when you are flooded (this is already true for Top, but for Tracker even more so)

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Originally Posted by Brael

But when you're flooded, assuming the opponent doesn't have an answer wouldn't you rather just GSZ for Sigarda and end the game?

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I often have situations in which I do not want a beater but more cards or answers. But I dont want to make Tracker sound too insane. He is a solid option and the people in this thread who used or tested him (Arian, me) had good experiences. When you draw him he is a slow cantrip that eats a removal spell imediately, so it is card advantage with a slight Tempo loss, that is okay for three mana. But he has a very high upside, when for some reason he does not die or when you are low on cards and draw GSZ.

Interestingly if you have a Veteran in play, dropping Tracker followed by a Phyrexian Tower gives you the potential to make 2 clues and 4 mana off the Tower, which means Tracker survives Bolt. Seems like a nice benefit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by helvetios

I also thought about a KotR package. The question is, do we use him just for the shuffle effect in a Rhino/SFM/PW Build, or do we go all in on him.

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If you want to go all-in, then check this out.


Currently this is what the puzzling has brought me:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Painful Truths
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Path to Exile
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 2 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Choke


The previous list had a huge gap in the 2-3 CMC section. Scooze and E.Witness come back since Scooze is a good help in the combo MU and not half bad against heavy creature decks (Eldrazi and Elves), also Scooze wins the fight vs Deathrite Shaman stand-offs and is solid lifegain when low.
E.Witness has the ability to revive equipment (and the rest).
It seems that there is a debate on Tireless Tracker and everyone seems to like him. Personally i want to put my bet on KotR. I like the idea of a slight land toolbox, to fetch Stronghold or Karakas.
Siege Rhino gets shaved down a bit to straighten out the numbers. The list is now at 60 cards.

Couple things i am still thinking about:
* Should i cut down Veteran Explorer and squeeze in DRS 3/4 so i have a 3/4 split? Because on overall the curve is lower, DRS and SFM help to fight the attrition war. Presenting to much targets for removal works fine. Especially when it means drawing away bolt's from the head or decay away from Jitte.
* Painful Truths, might as well be something else. But i want something library manipulation not being SDT 4. In the past i have tried playing 4 and then they just keep flooding. 3 SDT is perfect.
* Path to Exile is currently playing a more important role then Abrupt Decay, hence the 4/2 split. Having 4 PtE felt incredibly solid.
* No Sorin, i desperately in my board, so that might mean that i will have the 3/4 VetEx/DRS split main.
* Dryad Arbor. Currently my list has the Two Towers and Karakas. Ideally i would like to see Dryad Arbor in there to. But that might also mean Meren of Clan Nel Toth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

If you want to go all-in, then check this out.



Couple things i am still thinking about:
* Should i cut down Veteran Explorer and squeeze in DRS 3/4 so i have a 3/4 split? Because on overall the curve is lower, DRS and SFM help to fight the attrition war. Presenting to much targets for removal works fine. Especially when it means drawing away bolt's from the head or decay away from Jitte.
* Painful Truths, might as well be something else. But i want something library manipulation not being SDT 4. In the past i have tried playing 4 and then they just keep flooding. 3 SDT is perfect.
* Path to Exile is currently playing a more important role then Abrupt Decay, hence the 4/2 split. Having 4 PtE felt incredibly solid.
* No Sorin, i desperately in my board, so that might mean that i will have the 3/4 VetEx/DRS split main.
* Dryad Arbor. Currently my list has the Two Towers and Karakas. Ideally i would like to see Dryad Arbor in there to. But that might also mean Meren of Clan Nel Toth.

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Thanks for the link!

about the Vet/DRS split: I think in the SFM lists, this is more a preference thing, because both can become beaters with equipment. i personally like the 3/3 split. a fourth Vet may be better if you run a six-drop like sorin.
I also think 3 tops is the perfect number, alongside truths.
about the removal package, more paths felt better yes, but i wouldn't want to go without at least one answer for a jace. so one vindicate is a must in my opinion. The 4-rhino builds could maybe pull of some number of Anguished unmaking?
I'm also struggling to find room for arbor and meren :tongue: