Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by Lormador

I'm in a bit of a quandary of what three cards would complement the rest of the deck best. I've tried Energy Field and I don't much like it. It's too unreliable. I'm comfortable having potentially dead cards in some matchups, however, like Rest In Peace and Blood Moon in the main. Those I've been able to get a lot of value from in game, whereas Energy Field has really delivered only against Eldrazi and Burn. Against Eldrazi I also need either a Moon or a RIP down previously in order for it to be solid enough to win.

After these changes over the previous list, I noticed a big jump in competitiveness, and reached the finals of the small event I took the deck to instead of the mediocre finishes I'd been putting up.

Right now, I've got a Mentor in the MD as the alternate win con, just to pull the basic Mountain from the board into the MD. I have a Moat, however, and don't really like how this hangs together; also I've enjoyed being a creatureless MD and killing people with Baneslayer Angel. I also like extra sideboard slots though, and possibly more than this. Having no Snapcasters weakens me against Delver decks as well as the mirror, so should I possibly invest in more than 3 blast effects from the board, or even MD?

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Long story short, it's a dead end. Soon you realize you want to play more Mentors, then you'll reach to the same conclusion about RiP and Helm, just as what you wrote about EF. If you want to keep those cards in the deck for name-sake, then you should just stop trying to get big jump in competitiveness. Accept the mediocrity of running these cards and move on. Also, Goblins cannot defeat EF + RiP game one. It might have Wear//Tear in the SB and that's it, I have seen Anarchy only once in my life.

All your likes suggest that you should just play main stream builds because these main stream Miracles cards like Mentor are competitive and they are the reason you are winning, not because of RiP and/or Helm. You should not invest in anything until you realize what's more important to you: the cool factor of the fragile combo or winning matches in competitive Legacy. Once you have made up that mind, you already know what cards you should be running.

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

maindeck mountain, which is super good.

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I would sooner play a 3rd Volc than a MD Mountain, which casts actual ZERO spells MD.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

I would sooner play a 3rd Volc than a MD Mountain, which casts actual ZERO spells MD.

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You don't play SDT?

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Originally Posted by mort-

You don't play SDT?

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***Snickers***

Mountain lets you free spin tops, and lets you have access to blasts in wasteland matchups, like not-stifle delver and shardless BUG. That reason is enough to want it's inclusion. We've had this discussion time and time again and that's always been the reason why mountain is fine for some builds, even desirable in some cases.

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

Why not a Counterspell as well as two snapcaster mages? That would make for an alternative win-condition post a hard-lock, be it Blood Moon or CB+Top.

It also makes for a slightly better combo-matchup, due to more stack-interaction.

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I tried a couple of Counterspells in the deck without Snapcaster Mage, and they were just barely OK. I haven't tried Snapcasters in the deck, feeling that this is a bit of a nonbo with Rest In Peace. I get the idea that Counterspell isn't quite good enough without SCM.

Basic mountain would be pretty good in this version of the deck, ensuring fully powered EEs, getting consistent Blood Moons through against Delver decks, and allowing for reliable blasting out of the board against a deck that's a little fiercer than it would be against the usual SCM varieties.

@twndom

Thanks for the input. I was, in fact, a big fan of those 3 Snapcaster / 4 Ponder builds back before the TC/DTT era (when I switched to Delver decks until those cards got banned, and even for awhile after). It probably is worth the experiment of going back to the mainstream build at this point to try it out once more after all this time, at least for an event or two. I do miss just killing everything with a barrage of StPs and blasts.

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Originally Posted by Minniehajj

***Snickers***

Mountain lets you free spin tops, and lets you have access to blasts in wasteland matchups, like not-stifle delver and shardless BUG. That reason is enough to want it's inclusion. We've had this discussion time and time again and that's always been the reason why mountain is fine for some builds, even desirable in some cases.

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I took issue more with the way he said it, with the implication that you actively want a basic Mountain regardless of what list you're playing. What you said is better Minniehajj, that it is fine for some builds, not all. If a list runs 2-3 REBs PB, there's no reason to devote an entire land slot for a card that comes in for g2 (and g3). Fearing Wasteland is pointless because normally you'd only cast 1, maybe 2 REBs all game so those 2 Volcs are expendable while also providing :u: when needed/if they're still around.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

I would sooner play a 3rd Volc than a MD Mountain, which casts actual ZERO spells MD.

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That's reasonable.

I like to play my basics maindeck, and mountain makes you immune to wasteland against both DnT, Shardless as well as Delver, all matchups where you want a non-wastelandable red source.

I was obviously talking about my preference in lists. I'd not devote any space to builds I don't play, as I can't really provide useful information in these scenarios. I've been playing lists with predict, where Basic Mountain is execllent.

Dear Miracle enthusiasts,

Recently, I played the BoM at Annecy with a good 3-0 start, followed by a poor 3 loses in a row. I was playing a short Terminus List (only 2 copies) with four Daze (my post was in page 500 I think). With Dig gone, the main deck wasn't optimal and Daze is definitely not a counter I will run anymore. But the red cards (Bolts) were very fine. So I updated my liste to something more robust, but I still have some interrogation about including Counterspell instead of Shock main deck and a couple of Clique in sideboard (because of UU requirement).

Here is where I am :

MAINDECK
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Sudden Shock (Fire // Ice, Counterspell, Spell Snare ??)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Terminus
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island (2 Volcanic + 1 Mountain?)
3 Island
1 Plains


SIDEBOARD
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Wear // Tear
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest

My feelings is that with this list "as is", I can shave a Volcanic for a main deck basic Mountain. But with that change, I fear that the mana base will makes some difficulties to support all the UU Spells (counterbalance, clique, Jace). Do you have any experience with a list like this ?

With the Mentors (soo strong), I was looking for a pro-active not cmc1 spells. Shock looked fine, and Split Seconde is a good point to get ride of an Ooze, Shaman, etc. I played several games with this list and while the burn package do great things, I wonder if Fire/Ice or Counterspell/Spell Snare (all of them are Force-pitch compatible) could be better than the Shocks. I'm currently in the army for few weeks and won't be able to test it deeply. I think a couple of Counterspells or a mix with Spell Snare could be much better. Candidates for Sudden Shock slot's are Fire // Ice, Counterspell, Spell Snare, Jace,... Who else ? So any advise on the 2 Sudden Shock slots are much welcome.

At this point you're no longer playing Miracles but UWR Mentor with a CounterTop package.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

At this point you're no longer playing Miracles but UWR Mentor with a CounterTop package.

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Agreed. It's almost impossible to give advice because markkugel is not really playing Miracles anymore.

I keep hearing about Miracle builds with Nahiri. Is this an accepted thing now? If so, is their a current list? If not, is this just an isolated trend at the moment?

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Originally Posted by Cire

I keep hearing about Miracle builds with Nahiri. Is this an accepted thing now? If so, is their a current list? If not, is this just an isolated trend at the moment?

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It's a pretty stock miracles list with 2 Nahiri as well as a singleton Emrakul. Like, -x Counterspell, -2 Flexslots,.

http://mtgpulse.com/event/24578#331063 This is a list that made 5-0 (in the hands of Andrea Mengucci).

Nahiri may actually be a package with staying power. Verdict is still out on her potency. I think we'll have our answer at GP Columbus.

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

It's a pretty stock miracles list with 2 Nahiri as well as a singleton Emrakul. Like, -x Counterspell, -2 Flexslots,.

http://mtgpulse.com/event/24578#331063 This is a list that made 5-0 (in the hands of Andrea Mengucci).

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From the man himself:

"I missed Top 8, but I learned a lot of things:

Nahiri, the Harbinger was not a good card outside of the Miracles, BUG Shardless, and Jund matchups. It was clunky and slow in all the matchups I faced (none were the aforementioned decks).

I faced 3 decks with main-deck Karakas, where my Nahiri, the Harbinger didn’t help me win the game. Legacy is such a wide open format that you can’t be prepared only against three of the thousands of decks.

Jace, the Mind Sculptor is perfectly fine for that because even if your opponent is beating you down, you can simply Brainstorm, put a Terminus back, it’ll soak 3 damage, and you’ll have what you wanted. In addition to that, it’s a blue card to pitch with Force of Will, which is very important against combo.

Legacy players can be afraid to try out new cards—it's easy to assume that old ones are always better. But it's valuable to try out new cards in preparation for big events to see how they behave, and to see if there’s a chance to break the format.

Nahiri, the Harbinger did not break the format, however, and I won’t be playing her going forward in Legacy."

JTMS is JTMS, no replacing there for me.

Been testing Nahiri in latest mtgo league. Running 2 Nahiri and 1 Emrakul instead of 2 Mentor and the 3rd Jace. May run it in a local legacy event this week.

Seems pretty good so far.

Won me the game versus miracles mirror where Jace would not have he showed me a red blast at the end of the game. Had to win with a Snapcaster post Emrakul swing but it basically won the game.

Was decent versus Eldrazi killing an Eldrazi and needed to attack Nahiri so that bought me a turn but still lost that game.

I like Nahiri a lot in the Jeskai control modern deck where the opponent can take damage from shock lands and you have bolts as finisher but in legacy verdict is still out in legacy you have Jace, The Mindsculptor provides card advantage which also costs 4 mana.

Key thing. You MAY discard a card to draw a card with the +2. So you don't have to discard if you like your hand.

Nahiri
Pros
Does not get Red blasted.
Can Win faster then Jace.
Gets rid of pesky enchantments.
Swinging with the spaghetti monster is awesome.
Exiles creatures instead of bouncing them.

Cons
Does not provide immediate card advantage of Jace.
Does not pitch to force of will.
Can not put miracles on top of your deck.
Ultimate does not always win since a single Emrakul swing is not always lethal. Where Jace Ultimate wins.
Can only exile tapped creatures.
You have one more card (Emrakul) in your deck you don't want in your hand along with your miracles.

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Originally Posted by Minniehajj

Hi! Mackan's decklist is based on this one that we built together some months ago:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...r-GPT-Columbus

SFM comes in almost every matchup, as a better defensive card than Mentor, and being defensive while playing for a long game was the choice for his approach

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Hey Minn I notice that in the more recent lists, specifically the one AnziD's been playing on stream, foregoes the SFM package in favor of a Mentor, a Predict, and another SCM. What are your thoughts on this? Are you still playing SFM?

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Originally Posted by prepare4robots

Hey Minn I notice that in the more recent lists, specifically the one AnziD's been playing on stream, foregoes the SFM package in favor of a Mentor, a Predict, and another SCM. What are your thoughts on this? Are you still playing SFM?

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Just chiming in, it seems more of a personal preference thing than any sort of advantage. They're both solid packages with advantages and disadvantages (though the disadvantages are mitigated since they're the SB plan so when you don't want to run them then they're not clogging up your deck). The Mentor one may be more efficient but the SFM one has more raw power. Can't really go wrong with either in any meta aside from super skewed ones (i.e. people are all running black for Dread of Night or people are all running Hushwing Griff/Torpor Orbs.)

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Originally Posted by prepare4robots

Hey Minn I notice that in the more recent lists, specifically the one AnziD's been playing on stream, foregoes the SFM package in favor of a Mentor, a Predict, and another SCM. What are your thoughts on this? Are you still playing SFM?

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

Just chiming in, it seems more of a personal preference thing than any sort of advantage. They're both solid packages with advantages and disadvantages (though the disadvantages are mitigated since they're the SB plan so when you don't want to run them then they're not clogging up your deck). The Mentor one may be more efficient but the SFM one has more raw power. Can't really go wrong with either in any meta aside from super skewed ones (i.e. people are all running black for Dread of Night or people are all running Hushwing Griff/Torpor Orbs.)

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My apologies but this is completely wrong.

The inherent difference between SFM and Mentor is threefold: 1) Mana Investment and 2) Offense vs. Defense and 3) Card Slots
SFM is a card that has a much lower mana investment overall, since it's 2 mana one time and you just hold up everything after that. It also stabilizes you more quickly than mentor does from a dangerously low life total. This makes it overall better vs. delver decks than mentor normally would be. There are also some neat tricks you can do with SFM that you can't with mentor, like utilizing top and terminus plus SFM activations to wrath the board and leave yourself with a batterskull ready to attack, etc.

The problem with SFM overall though is that it interacts with hand disruption, which mentor bypasses, and costs 3 sideboard slots (you absolutely should not play this maindeck IMO), and it dies to warping wail, which is more relevantly seen than typical mentor hate.

Mentor is the more powerful card by a lot, because it stabilizes you with dudes to block with, rather than life total, but 3 mana (realistically, more like 4 mana) is a LOT more than 2 mana, and it requires you to sometimes play your cards in a suboptimal sequence in order to maximize value quickly. It's not a high cost, but it IS a cost to playing the card, which cannot be ignored. It can be played Maindeck because it doesn't really interact with your opponent's removal much. In our build, you never play mentor unless you absolutely have to, or have counter/top/Jace/predicted your opponent into the dirt/etc already. It's never really at odds w/ terminus because the whole point is setting up a board state that kills your opponent. It's a better hedge to have in game 1's as well.

To answer the question, I am personally not playing SFM anymore, but that's mostly due to the card slot issue over anything else. We've tested many configurations with each, and I'd love to be able to fit SFM into my deck again, but I don't see anything that necessitates its usage. I also don't think you're analyzing the slots either. SFM wasn't "replaced" by anything, the entire 75 was reconfigured. You cannot analyze a slot 1 for 1 because that's now how card selection works. You have to look at the 75 as a whole, identify the problems the main deck has, and build a sideboard utilizing that. Ideally, it's "clean" meaning you take out x cards and you bring in x cards and that philosophy should apply to every matchup. We aren't bringing in predict plus snapcaster 4 plus mentor in the same matchups where we board in SFM, it's a completely different deck than when you have access to SFM.

Hope that clears things up a little! Feel free to let me know if I can clarify anything for you.

I have been playtesting a fair bit against Eldrazi lately both in paper and online, and I am having real issues beating the deck. It's pretty clear that it's a majorly unfavoured match-up, but there are still Miracles lists top8'ing so either it's beatable or getting to top8 involves not pairing against Eldrazi. When I see a t1 ancient tomb + chalice, t2 TKS and t3 Reality Smasher I just want to lay down and cry.

If I am on the play I can mostly play around a chalic for 1 if I get a t1 divining top. Counter Balance feels mostly useless in the matchup and I am not sure if I should be keeping them in post-board.

I am siding in the following cards;

+1 Moat (for obvious reasons)
+2 Back to Basics (shuts them down, but keeps my fetches open - like it better than blood moon)
+2 Wear // Tear (kills chalice, trinishere, thorn etc)
+1 Pithing Needle (for Eye of Ugin, but this is probably a debatable card to side in against this matchup since they dont have alot of targets)
+1 Monastery Mentor (to generate early blockers and survive, maybe even steal a kill)

Eldrazi is part of the reason why many of us have moved towards a MD Engineered Explosives. That's something worth considering.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

Eldrazi is part of the reason why many of us have moved towards a MD Engineered Explosives. That's something worth considering.

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I am adding that as soon as I get one in the mail. It's still just a 1-of that you have to find in time. To me, it seems like you only have a limited time window to find what you need. And thats between turn 2 and 4. In other words winning is mostly based on being a tad lucky!

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Originally Posted by kentheide

I am adding that as soon as I get one in the mail. It's still just a 1-of that you have to find in time. To me, it seems like you only have a limited time window to find what you need. And thats between turn 2 and 4. In other words winning is mostly based on being a tad lucky!

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Well the slot is a flex slot usually filled by either a Spell Pierce or Spell Snare, and usually to deal with surprise spells (i.e. MD Sylvan Library or Chalice of the Void). However, they're useless once those spells resolve, whereas EE is almost never a dead topdeck.

Played Mackan's list in my local FNM last friday to a 3-0 finish beating pyromancer-delver, maverick and stoneblade.
Switched from Joe Losset's iteration of the deck to this because I had some bad beats on a GPT earlier and I felt Mackan's list would suit my style of play better. I really like the legends version of the deck but I feel winning the mirror has become less relevant and I was very dissapointed with the performance of clique in the current meta.
What I hope to test before the GP is the Nahiri kill since I was not that happy with the entreats (although again I felt that this was more due to how I play and not because of the power level of entreat) and would probably cut both entreats and a Jace for 2 Nahiri and an Emmy.
I also played a different sideboard and 1 experimental slot was good old Keranos and that thing really made me happy. Even flipping blindly it just gave me so much advantage (either shooting the small critters of the maverick deck and otherwise digging for plow/terminus. I thought it would be too fancy and too expensive but I have to reconsider. It also helped me close out a game much faster when I had sufficient devotion and could beat for 8 (with a snap) instead of 2.

Remember what that article from Andrea: Karakas is a card you'll run into a lot to have Nahiri-kul be your only creature win con. It's good to diversify your threats but not at the expense of the deck's effectiveness.

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Originally Posted by Reagens

Played Mackan's list in my local FNM last friday to a 3-0 finish beating pyromancer-delver, maverick and stoneblade.
Switched from Joe Losset's iteration of the deck to this because I had some bad beats on a GPT earlier and I felt Mackan's list would suit my style of play better. I really like the legends version of the deck but I feel winning the mirror has become less relevant and I was very dissapointed with the performance of clique in the current meta.
What I hope to test before the GP is the Nahiri kill since I was not that happy with the entreats (although again I felt that this was more due to how I play and not because of the power level of entreat) and would probably cut both entreats and a Jace for 2 Nahiri and an Emmy.
I also played a different sideboard and 1 experimental slot was good old Keranos and that thing really made me happy. Even flipping blindly it just gave me so much advantage (either shooting the small critters of the maverick deck and otherwise digging for plow/terminus. I thought it would be too fancy and too expensive but I have to reconsider. It also helped me close out a game much faster when I had sufficient devotion and could beat for 8 (with a snap) instead of 2.

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Whats the meta like at where you play? I feel like being able to do well nowadays is extremely dependant on what match-ups you get.

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Originally Posted by kentheide

Whats the meta like at where you play? I feel like being able to do well nowadays is extremely dependant on what match-ups you get.

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Meta is pretty random in the sense that most people attending the FNM's are pretty much able to play/build any deck they want.
Match-ups are an important part of the equasion although it would seem odd to think that people like Julian Knab/Joe Losset and others do well at pretty much any event they enter so skill is very important as well.

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Originally Posted by Reagens

Meta is pretty random in the sense that most people attending the FNM's are pretty much able to play/build any deck they want.
Match-ups are an important part of the equasion although it would seem odd to think that people like Julian Knab/Joe Losset and others do well at pretty much any event they enter so skill is very important as well.

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I agree, but there hasn't been any big Legacy events (except BoM which Eldrazi won) after this new shift in the meta. BoM had a miracles list in top8, but I would be curious to know what match-ups he played through-out the day. He lost to Eldrazi in the finals. Also online more and more decks that can beat Eldrazi is turning up and the bad part about that is that those match-ups are in addition to Eldrazi not very favoured for Miracles either.

I am predicting we will see some heavy changes to the archetype in the coming months.

Do u tuya like nahiri

.?

I was testing Minniehajj's list with a buddy who was playing Shardless BUG. In the as of yet undefined SB slot I tried a From the Ashes and I had a Clique over one of the 4 REBs and a Containment Priest over a 3rd Flusterstorm because I don't own #3.

We played 2 preboard and 3 post board games. I boarded -4 FOW, -3 Counterbalance, -1 Swords to Plowshares and +3 REB, +1 From the Ashes, +2 Wear // Tear, +2 Flusterstorm.

The games went about even (which I feel is a personal victory because I had yet to beat Shardless). I noted that every time I was able to cast From the Ashes that the game was in my favor. EE was pretty good at getting rid of late lilianas and I was able to search well enough that once the game had progressed to a certain point I was advantaged.

What do you guys think? Were there better boarding options available?

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Originally Posted by Misersoneof

I was testing Minniehajj's list with a buddy who was playing Shardless BUG. In the as of yet undefined SB slot I tried a From the Ashes and I had a Clique over one of the 4 REBs and a Containment Priest over a 3rd Flusterstorm because I don't own #3.

We played 2 preboard and 3 post board games. I boarded -4 FOW, -3 Counterbalance, -1 Swords to Plowshares and +3 REB, +1 From the Ashes, +2 Wear // Tear, +2 Flusterstorm.

The games went about even (which I feel is a personal victory because I had yet to beat Shardless). I noted that every time I was able to cast From the Ashes that the game was in my favor. EE was pretty good at getting rid of late lilianas and I was able to search well enough that once the game had progressed to a certain point I was advantaged.

What do you guys think? Were there better boarding options available?

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I would never board clique vs them and neither would I board flusterstorm (too narrow). From the ashes is interesting but probably too cute. Siding out removal seems odd.
I would however keep the counterbalances and board the extra mentor and predict.

So in the end something like:

- 4 force of will
- 2 ponder
- 1 counterspell

+3 REB
+2 wear/tear
+1 predict
+1 monastery mentor


Although I might be wrong with predict/ponder.
Counterbalance should be kept in since they only have abrupt decay as a sure answer and since you are playing mentors anyway you might as well try and overload on their decays.

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Originally Posted by Misersoneof

I was testing Minniehajj's list with a buddy who was playing Shardless BUG. In the as of yet undefined SB slot I tried a From the Ashes and I had a Clique over one of the 4 REBs and a Containment Priest over a 3rd Flusterstorm because I don't own #3.

We played 2 preboard and 3 post board games. I boarded -4 FOW, -3 Counterbalance, -1 Swords to Plowshares and +3 REB, +1 From the Ashes, +2 Wear // Tear, +2 Flusterstorm.

The games went about even (which I feel is a personal victory because I had yet to beat Shardless). I noted that every time I was able to cast From the Ashes that the game was in my favor. EE was pretty good at getting rid of late lilianas and I was able to search well enough that once the game had progressed to a certain point I was advantaged.

What do you guys think? Were there better boarding options available?

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Flusterstorm feels like a bad bring-in vs a deck that is primarily creatures and planeswalkers

Your cuts feel fine. CB is not something you want to keep in this MU.

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Originally Posted by Reagens

I would never board clique vs them and neither would I board flusterstorm (too narrow). From the ashes is interesting but probably too cute. Siding out removal seems odd.
I would however keep the counterbalances and board the extra mentor and predict.

So in the end something like:

- 4 force of will
- 2 ponder
- 1 counterspell

+3 REB
+2 wear/tear
+1 predict
+1 monastery mentor


Although I might be wrong with predict/ponder.
Counterbalance should be kept in since they only have abrupt decay as a sure answer and since you are playing mentors anyway you might as well try and overload on their decays.

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Most of this is wrong. If you have clique you should usually bring it in vs shardless to act as disruption and pressure vs their planeswalkers, because that's their primary way of beating us. You shouldn't keep in CB even if you are trying to overload Decay because the monks are the real clock, along with Card Advantage from Predict being the best way to get an advantage for us.
Also, CB is awful vs the deck in general due to their flat mana curve. I wouldn't board in more than 1 wear//tear because you don't need it. If they needle top or null rod you, you can simply utilize predict in order to gain card advantage, essentially ignoring whatever nonsense hate they have. I'd also never ever ever cut Ponder vs them, Ponder is one of the primary ways of setting up Predict through any Top hate, and you absolutely need that. From the Ashes is fine and all, but you really don't need any nonbasic land hate, the main plan of your deck should be enough to make Shardless an almost easy matchup. Collectively, those in our group during the MTGO Legacy Challenge last week went 14-0 vs Shardless, and matches weren't very close. Predict is THAT good.

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Originally Posted by Misersoneof

I was testing Minniehajj's list with a buddy who was playing Shardless BUG. In the as of yet undefined SB slot I tried a From the Ashes and I had a Clique over one of the 4 REBs and a Containment Priest over a 3rd Flusterstorm because I don't own #3.

We played 2 preboard and 3 post board games. I boarded -4 FOW, -3 Counterbalance, -1 Swords to Plowshares and +3 REB, +1 From the Ashes, +2 Wear // Tear, +2 Flusterstorm.

The games went about even (which I feel is a personal victory because I had yet to beat Shardless). I noted that every time I was able to cast From the Ashes that the game was in my favor. EE was pretty good at getting rid of late lilianas and I was able to search well enough that once the game had progressed to a certain point I was advantaged.

What do you guys think? Were there better boarding options available?

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With your sideboard, I'd board out -4 FoW, -3 CB, -1 Plow, Add in +3 REB, +1 clique, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Snapcaster, +1 Mentor, +1 Predict.

Yep, I have to agree with Minniehajj - Clique is actually pretty good vs Shardless, Counterbalance is mediocre. Flusterstorm is not great, Predict lets you recover from Hymn or Thoughtseize, and you aren't really Flusterstorming anything else.

I do bring in From the Ashes at the moment, but I don't have an additional threat like a Mentor in my sideboard right now, so it serves that role which I think is fine.

Edit - I do like 1 Wear/Tear (Council's Judgment / EE are both better though depending on what you have available) to deal with Sylvan Library moreso than Top hate - we can play through / around Needle or Null Rod pretty easily.

Flusterstorm is the best answer against hymn to tourach and some versions of shardless use it. And i would never side out any creature removal.

Starting from last Cadei's list (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12187&d=270025&f=LE) i would sb in:
1 Blood Moon
0-2 Flusterstorm
1-3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear / Tear
0-1 rip

and sb out: 4 fow 4 cb and one land.

(actually, my list runs 1 pithing needle, that i also bring on).

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Originally Posted by Stefanogs

Flusterstorm is the best answer against hymn to tourach and some versions of shardless use it. And i would never side out any creature removal.

Starting from last Cadei's list (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12187&d=270025&f=LE) i would sb in:
1 Blood Moon
0-2 Flusterstorm
1-3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear / Tear
0-1 rip

and sb out: 4 fow 4 cb and one land.

(actually, my list runs 1 pithing needle, that i also bring on).

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This is all fine and dandy, but he's talking about the Predict build I posted specifically, and predict changes the matchup considerably. You no longer care about Hymn in the slightest, so you don't need to bother with bringing in Flusterstorm, you can board out 1 plow since all you're going to want to kill are Goyfs and Shamans, the rest will be dealt with incidentally.

Hey everyone, been lurking on this thread for a couple of months on and off now and have been playing miracles since January 2015. Can anyone break down the specific pros and cons of a traditional 4-ponder only builds vs. the relatively new hotness that are the predict builds?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snailster

Hey everyone, been lurking on this thread for a couple of months on and off now and have been playing miracles since January 2015. Can anyone break down the specific pros and cons of a traditional 4-ponder only builds vs. the relatively new hotness that are the predict builds?

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I'll give it a shot.

-- predictable miracles

Miracles decks are traditionally made up of two components. There are white cards and blue cards.

The blue cards are fantastic at drawing you more cards and answering your opponent on the stack. Things like countermagic, cantrips, Jace, and Snapcaster mage.
The white cards are fantastic at removing your opponent's creature-based threats, as well as giving you a way to win the game via things like Entreat the Angels, Monastery Mentor, or Stoneforge Mystic.

Whenever you approach a given matchup, a lot of the time one side of this spectrum is going to outclass the other side. Easy examples are things like the Mirror, Combo, and vs. Stompy decks like Eldrazi.

Predict allows several things with this in mind:

1) It allows us to permanently filter away cards we don't want to see in a given match-up, at instant speed, with a huge payoff of getting two new cards.
2) It allows us to clear the top of our deck to allow us to continue digging for the exact cards we want in a given matchup.
3) It allows us to gain incremental value off of a naked Counterbalance, allowing us to clear cruft and give us another shot at a blind flip
4) It allows us to continue searching through and filtering our deck in the face of a resolved Chalice of the Void
5) It allows us to clear our opponent's flipped top or otherwise known card in the mirror.

The builds I have been playing recently go as far as cutting the 21st land and running 2-3 predicts.

Doing this gives a few other benefits:

1) We see more spells over the course of a long game.
2) Our deck is slimmer, and able to interact more easily with the opponent.
3) In general, it feels like there's more consistency and less clunk.

However there are some downsides. This version is less powerful than the 21 land build. Due to the uptick in cantrips there have been games where I've died because the only cards I seem to be able to find are cantrips and lands. This deck also plays fairly differently than other versions of miracles, and a slightly different, perhaps more aggressive approach is necessary when it comes to casting your cantrips.

-- 4-ponder miracles

4 ponder miracles traditionally runs 21 lands these days. Back around GP Lille, it was run with 20 but that was because dig through time was a mainstay in the format and well... legal. Now that dig is out of the format the classic ovino list is a traditional start-point for this list.

Because of the 21st land, it is easier to get away with 2 plains plus 3 volcanic islands for red sources, whereas the 20L builds need to either run a basic mountain or a second volcanic. So, your manabase is going to be more stable. However, due to the decrease in number of filtering cards, you are bound to see a lot more of the side of the deck that you do not want to.

You do get to play the more "powerful" deck, though I'd venture that it is slightly less consistent. The addition of multiple entreat the angels, which is something that the 20L builds can't really afford to run, give your deck more inevitability vs. other midrange and control decks like Shardless BUG.

So, the benefits I see are:

1) More resilient to wasteland and port with respect to white mana
2) Gets to play more powerful cards, or more copies of powerful cards.
3) Cantrips are not as necessary to find lands in as many games.

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If I were to go to a GP tomorrow, I'd go with a Predict based build, if only due to the number of reps I've put in with them.

This has to be the newest tech... perhaps bigger than predict.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/...1918631775.png

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Originally Posted by twndomn

This has to be the newest tech... perhaps bigger than predict.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/...1918631775.png

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Horrible looking tops that only come in 3 languages, and might have the bad foiling process? Ugh.

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

Horrible looking tops that only come in 3 languages, and might have the bad foiling process? Ugh.

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They definitely have the regular pack foil process, not the FTV or MM ones.