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Sooo i went a step back from the things and tombs to a version of this list. I like this list a lot but I’ve been losing to the grixis delver menace – a lot. They seem to have the answer for everything I manage to throw at them… I mean between gitaxian / cabal, wasteland, counters and a fast clock I feel my hands are tied.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Any tips for this match up?
If you can resolve an elephant grass and maintain for a few turns it's likely your best post board plan. Otherwise early wail or show and tell can do a lot in that match up to stabilize a boardQuote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
I don't know if this is relevant for you or not but in my testing I've found one of my keys to success is to attacking their graveyard to limit their ability to drop early Gurmags on the board. I've got Relics on my board which come in, in addition to Bojuka Bog.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
It's still a rough matchup and you really have to navigate it well, but I've found the deck does have the tools to get through it. Pithing Needle is important. I don't know how Rock Lee gets by without them or with low quantities of them, but I never run less than 3, that shores up vs Wasteland.
agreed on pithing needle. this is one of the reasons i like the multiple trinket plan you can go down to 1-2.
this is exactly what i was pondering about. should i leave bojuka in? okay i'll try it.
wail hmm.. I exile their creatures early on but somehow they just keep coming...
what else? which SB cards are in your respected opinions the best for this matchup?
maybe a couple of BEBs couldn't hurt right? i was thinking of trying 2 in the board since i'm usually weak against red anyhow...
do you board in flusters?
Hi, as ug build player for me flusters what i'm playing three in main i side out against everything what have deathrite shamans and discard except elves it just longer death i just changed plan to have more permanents in board and carefuly get empty my hand asap i'm testing now couple of relics with two blight Herders and seems to be nice and successful plan 4/5body and three scion guys when you casting you get more time ussualy when it resolved i won a game last few tournaments in my meta full of shardless agents maybe i put another one :) and especialy against grixis delver i side also gut shots thats nice too..Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
cau
maybe not a bad idea. i'll test it. not sure about gut shot without the thing though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drixx
wait you are boarding flusters out against hymn, thoughtseize? i'm boarding them in because of discard? am i boarding wrong here? though with WW mainboard i've been having doubts lately about bringing in flusters in these situations... on the other hand if u want to kill their DRS with WW u are defenceless against their discard?
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i've been finding mox diamond to be amazing in this build. it has contributed to several wins that would be impossible without it. Namely painter and nonbasic land hate in general - back to basics, blood moon, magus, wasteland,... even PoP - to some extent. In addition it ramps & mana fixes. Numerous times it has powered up my key spells in these tight situations enabling a win through SnT, crop rotation or titan. the same is true for other spells especially SB cards. This is just a brilliant addition and i love it.
I've been thinking i'd like to be a tad heavy on lands maybe 26 instead of 25 (2 islands seem like the right choice)? also contemplating 4x cropR, since it allows you to crop more aggressively and not get mana screwed so easily? it has some downsides like not playing well with WW or being dead late in the game, but that's acceptable for me... Has anyone else been playing with it?
off topic:
So naturally I wanted to go buy one for myself and it has F spiked ! i was looking to buy a playset of moxD a few months ago when i was contemplating a wacky 12post / lands list. it was around 20 EUR back then (around 80 for a play-set). now its like triple that price :cry:
does anyone know if this trend will continue? should i buy it now or will the price drop??? i want to play it so i'm buying either way. I just want to make the right decision for a change...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
i just don't expect that my three flusters save my hand in right moment because i don't run ww but two engineered ex. instead and i'm trying better manage my brainstorms,ponder and sensei's against discard i like now more creatures in side and your opponent bring in more flusters/pyroblasts/discards/pierces/lili etc... and sometimes they simply can pay with thoughsize in third or fourth round i like flusters to keep my crop rotations or brainstorm resolved in first round also fluster are not so good when you are on draw anyway opp will starts with thoughtsize maybe i'm wrong against some grixis and 4c delvers in this matchup for me seems to me also very bad ..
Well, it's on the reserved list, sees a reasonable amount of play in Legacy and we're about to get a set of reprints that will at least theoretically build interest in Legacy. How much it goes up depends on how many people get inspired to build Loam/Lands/etc. from EMA, but I don't really see it going down any time soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
Dude thanks for the feedback i feel better now. i went and bought one moxD right after i posted that whiny off topic question. Once a sinner always a sinner :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by thelastbeast
Coming from a C/g perspective, I've found Tabernacle and Wail to be very effective weapons against Grixis Delver. I doubt they'd be any less effective for UG builds, despite the lower number of Crop Rotations. As long as you can keep Pyromancer under control, it's not too difficult to beat.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
Moments peace goes a fair ways here too. Agree with Tabernacle and maze.
Pretty solid performance tonight at my LGS: stumbled against Infect when he top-decked his single Wasteland on his second draw and I drew no more lands while staring at a handful of hate. Other than that, the deck did what I needed it to do. I may very well stick with colorless, or close to it, for the GPT in my area on Saturday.
Here's my current list.
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
2 Coercive Portal
4 Pithing Needle
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Trinisphere
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
3 Oblivion Sower
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Silent Arbiter
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Karn Liberated
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 All Is Dust
SIDEBOARD
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Cursed Totem
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Sphere of Resistance
Although it's obviously a slave to its topdecks, the deck has a lot of very proactive hate. Most decks can get around a single Sphere effect, a piece of graveyard hate, or a Needle effect, but they often run into problems when there's more than one. As much as I like the card, cutting Wurmcoil Engine allowed me to slot in Silent Arbiter, which is another answer to idiot swarms that some - BoozeCube, I think - have employed to some success. I would like to employ more card draw but am also hesitant to cut any protection or hate for a deck that is pretty much entirely sorcery-speed.
I probably had some bad luck and bad plays on my part. I agree that this match-up is manageable. I probably played against experienced players with good draws. It's also very bad when they hit multiples with cabal. These types of decks can have a devastating sequence of plays that wreck you b4 u even start playing... even a brainstorm can go a long way in salvaging a bad start.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
I would love to play tabernacle but... $$$ i don't want to thinking about it. You know how sinful my soul is :laugh:
I'm playing a pair in the SB but I don't use them against them because of DRS. I'll give it a go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponders
Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
Most of the time you're going to die from creature damage or combos. The DRS is a thing, but usually you can cast it at least once. Also, the monoG list I've been playing with runs 3 O-stones, and I quite like them, although not necc in this abrupt decay wondercard matchup.
yes i'll give MP a go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponders
i wasn't impressed with o-stone. not only abrupt decay: stifle, pithing needle and phyrexian revoker wreck your day. Happened to me several times and i decided to drop o-stone.
abrupt decay is just sick and should be banned probably. alternatively they could print a card to hose it. Cost U: exile target instant spell :tongue:
You explain your choices inside?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
Okay, I'll explain some of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by caprino
The deck is, and plays like, a mashup of Eldrazi Aggro and classic 12-Post. It's quicker to the ground than 12-Post generally is without sacrificing inevitability. It's not as fast as Eldrazi, but it has more staying power. It does not have the turbo that 12-Post can have with Candelabra of Tawnos, but again, it still has a much better early game.
The biggest weakness of the deck is its inability to improve card selection. There's no tutoring, shuffle effects, or library manipulation. Because of this, the deck needs to be proactive about putting up defenses and advancing its board state via card quality. Almost every single deck has a problem with Sphere effects: there is a reasonable chance of landing a Trinisphere on turn 2. The deck has seven maindeck Needle effects to combat combo and Wasteland. The other 1-drop is Relic of Progenitus, which fights Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf and Gurmag Angler as well as the more obvious graveyard-based combo decks. It also has play with one of the deck's main threats, which I'll outline below. The last "hate bear" is Silent Arbiter, which is tough to kill in combat, can't be answered by Abrupt Decay, and stops one of the things Post often has problems with: creature swarms.
The deck has ten creatures which qualify as threats. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is obvious, as is Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. Since this deck has to be proactive, it tends to dump its hand fairly quickly, which is why I think Kozilek, the Great Distortion makes slightly more sense than Butcher of Truth. I average about five cards drawn per activation. In addition, Kozilek can protect the rest of the board, and with a Silent Arbiter on the board he can't be blocked. Thought-Knot Seer is also an awesome threat. This deck has a reasonable chance of dropping one on turn 2, and in addition to just being a solid body, it also can pre-emptively answer combo or sideboard answers. Lastly is Oblivion Sower. He's, well, interesting. At 5/8, there is pretty much no Legacy creature that can actually kill him in combat without deathtouch or friends. The cast trigger is also huge. Taking out four cards can lead to sideboard answers getting removed. Grabbing a Wasteland or Karakas is awesome. Anything that taps for mana ramps you. Also, it is a slight hedge against Blood Moon effects: Sower can be cast under Moon, and even if you grab a fetchland or something, under a Moon you can tap it for mana.
All is Dust makes sense as a sweeper here as you can get it to 5 mana under Eye of Ugin and it doesn't touch your board. Lastly, this deck has room for both Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and Karn Liberated. Both make sense in this list. Both can win the game by themselves. Ugin can sweep, and Karn functions as spot removal, which the deck otherwise lacks. With a slightly higher creature density, the deck is more likely to be able to protect them: especially with an Arbiter out.
The deck also wants to draw more cards. Coercive Portal helps with that, although it would be nice to run more than two.
The sideboard is mostly self-explanatory. Ratchet Bomb can answer tokens, Needle effects, or Chalice of the Void on one. If you can board out some of your own 1-drops, Chalice becomes excellent for us. Cursed Totem answers any creatures with abilities that matter: Qasali Pridemage, Knight of the Reliquary, Elves, or whatever else. There's more grave hate with Grafdigger's Cage and more Sphere effects to give you a better chance against most combo decks.
Nice..side in and side out Vs miracle, ant, d&t, elf, shardless bug, team America, rug delver, burn, dredge, eldrazi aggro, sneak attack, omnitell,agro loam, land, jund. I write you side in and side out for next tournament ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
Very interesting list. Why no Expedition Maps or Warping Wail?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
There isn't much argument for Map in this list and it was one of the first things I cut. With a lack of ways to improve card selection, a toolbox approach is much less practical. Most of the tutorable lands Post runs are covered by different cards, so all Map can really do in this list is guarantee your next land drop. While it's always important to make them, the fact that the deck still needs to be proactive means that I would have to sacrifice proactive cards in order to run Map.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
Wail sort of works in the same way, with the caveat being that Wail can be much more powerful. Still, though, I've tried to cover its utility with other cards in the deck. Most of the cards - the threats included - play more than one role. Relic is graveyard hate and can also combine with Oblivion Sower to accelerate or give me redemption if my opponent Wastelands me. Thought-Knot Seer is a good body with combo hate. The titans are self-explanatory. Even Silent Arbiter arguably makes this deck's threats deadlier in that they become even harder to kill since the opponent almost always has to rely on spells to take them out. Wail is the one card I sort of go back and forth on, but I mostly feel that between the Sphere effects, the Needle effects, and the fact that most of the threats serve more than one purpose, its power is largely compensated for in the deck.
I have a GPT tomorrow and I think I am going to try this 75 - or very close to it - at that event. Hopefully it will give me the best indication as to whether this configuration is viable: otherwise I will probably just go back to monogreen.