[Primer] Elves!

If DRS is proving as unreliable as you think he is as a mana source, which is his primary role, the answer might be to cut down on him to put in Llanowar/Fyndhorn/Mystics (Tap-Green or TG Elves) and to put the Taiga in. Producing mana is much more important than machine gunning opponents with drain effects so you go 3-4 TG Elves/1 DRS (still GSZ'able for acces to drain). I have not been experiencing this problem but I've not been playing in a meta full of opposing Deathrites. If the opponent is holding up UU and you suspect Dig is possible it would be preferable to eat a land from your own GY.

I would NOT like this solution because DRS is so versatile but if as hard as you say to produce mana with him it might be the way to go.

Ruric isn't good vs the DTT decks imo... omnitell laughs and annihilates your board at 2-8 life, and the DTT control builds are fairly winnable matchups that utilize StP (again, not good for mr.Thar)

the matchups where you want him (storm, burn, rug/ur delver) they don't play DTT...you're DRS should produce red mana. Also, if you're playing this creature and still only run 1 birchlore, you're doing it wrong (imo).

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Originally Posted by IMarques

This. The question is not whether to replace a basic land with Taiga/Badlands/whatever, it's whether to replace Pendelhaven with these things. Generally, I feel like Pendelhaven's utility far outweighs the chance to hardcast my one-of tutor target *that is only good in combo/burn matches*. In those cases, hardcasting is probably too slow.

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I strongly disagree that Ruric is only good in combo or burn matchups. If I have access to a GSZ or NO and Craterhoof is not fully lethal, I will go for Ruric no matter what the matchup and have never been disappointed. He has gotten me out of otherwise unwinnable spots against Reanimator, Delver, and Infect among other decks.
(I know a couple of those are sort of combo-like, but I also know that "combo" here meant Storm)

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Originally Posted by Snickelfritz

I strongly disagree that Ruric is only good in combo or burn matchups. If I have access to a GSZ or NO and Craterhoof is not fully lethal, I will go for Ruric no matter what the matchup and have never been disappointed. He has gotten me out of otherwise unwinnable spots against Reanimator, Delver, and Infect among other decks.
(I know a couple of those are sort of combo-like, but I also know that "combo" here meant Storm)

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Same, same! totally agree

I play with Ruric since his printing (he is my "2nd Craterhoof") and the ogre works well enough. Ok, i was born in the combo-hell of Berlin/Germany (remember Jonathan, Carsten, Kai etc.) so even with Elves i want to beat Combo if i can (dismissing Game 1 isn't the best idea, no matter how much hate you have at side).

It isn't true that Omnitell/DTT laughs about Ruric, because you should be able to do some damage before Ruric is relevant (the Show & Tell Player go into his Combo). The worst thing can be, Show & Tell into Emrakul (1off) with Counterbackup to prevent our own Combostuff the following turn. Gladly Omnitell isn't Sneak & Show, so putting in a creature isn't the common case. With Ruric and Reclamation Sage at Main, Omnitell should be a winable Matchup. Game 2 and 3 you will face Grafdigger's Cage etc, but can also bring in Discard (which isn't so good vs DTT decks) and maybe Flusterstorm (or if we talk about Red-Splash: Red Elemental Blast etc.)

With Ruric at Main, i strongly suggest the Taiga! How many "Anti-Taiga" Players have played with Ruric at Main? Hardcast is relevant and Deathrites/Rangers (i play 2!) aren't always avaible.

At worst, Taiga is one more useable land in grindy matchups. With 2 Forests, 2 Bayou, 1 Taiga you have more "real" resources if the land counts matters (against stifle/wastelands or sweepers which "affect" Arbor/Cradle etc.).

For me it is easy: without Ruric (see common builds) change Taiga to one more Fetchland, with blue Splash change Taiga with Tropical.

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Originally Posted by Snickelfritz

I strongly disagree that Ruric is only good in combo or burn matchups. If I have access to a GSZ or NO and Craterhoof is not fully lethal, I will go for Ruric no matter what the matchup and have never been disappointed. He has gotten me out of otherwise unwinnable spots against Reanimator, Delver, and Infect among other decks.
(I know a couple of those are sort of combo-like, but I also know that "combo" here meant Storm)

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Well, D&T players are glad to hear that ... lol

It's fine if you opponent needs half a dozen of spells to win, but it's far from a no-brainer to win each game. It's also not that most of those combo decks would not board bounce anyways

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Originally Posted by MD.Ghost

How many "Anti-Taiga" Players have played with Ruric at Main?

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I play him main pretty much always and have sometimes shaved the 2nd Hoof rather than cutting Main Ruric but I am strongly against Taiga unless you have a Red SB (which I have little experience with). Pendelhaven is much more useful than Taiga but that becomes Tropical if I'm running a Blue SB. I have never felt the need to run Taiga during my many matches with Main Ruric and when I tried it I felt it wasn't doing enough, it felt superfluous.

Considering splashing Brainstorm. Thinking -1 NO,-1 GSZ and a fetch. Cant decide on a elf to cut though.
Im thinking -1 Pendalhaven and maybe - 1 Bayou for 2 Trops.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Well, D&T players are glad to hear that ... lol

It's fine if you opponent needs half a dozen of spells to win, but it's far from a no-brainer to win each game. It's also not that most of those combo decks would not board bounce anyways

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D&T is already a favorable matchup, I'm not worried about that one. I would say Ruric is still better than a non-lethal Hoof there, if only because he blocks Flickerwisps and Avengers all day long. If they Swords him it's a 12-point life swing, and that's if they have it immediately.

Of course I don't expect it to win every game, but it makes a much bigger impact than just attacking for 15 would. If the opponent doesn't have the removal/bounce spell ready right away, taking one hit from Ruric (plus whatever elves are out) probably puts them in a spot where they can only cast one spell, and that spell absolutely has to be removal for Ruric, and they have to also be able to win (or wipe the whole board) that turn.
If they do have the removal ready, Craterhoof likely wouldn't be able to get through either, so damage dealt to the opponent would be comparable.

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Originally Posted by Snickelfritz

D&T is already a favorable matchup, I'm not worried about that one. I would say Ruric is still better than a non-lethal Hoof there, if only because he blocks Flickerwisps and Avengers all day long. If they Swords him it's a 12-point life swing, and that's if they have it immediately.

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Karakas #embarassment #failtarget #Ruricsacoward

/topic

Ok, I'll admit I overlooked Karakas. I stand by the rest of it, and they still have to naturally draw into that Karakas within a turn or two with no card draw or library manipulation.

Also, there's no need to be a dick about it. That's not going to help convince anyone; it's only going to lead to people not wanting to contribute anything.

Random question but if Noble Hierach was an elf, would be play it over DRS?

Also what do we need to be printed to propel us to the next level? Elves is already one of the best decks and the core is already set. Would it take another 1 CMC elf, another big green finisher? Or what?

Just hypotheticals since I feel like elves is already solved and it'll take something big to change it.

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Originally Posted by AznSeal

Random question but if Noble Hierach was an elf, would be play it over DRS?

Also what do we need to be printed to propel us to the next level? Elves is already one of the best decks and the core is already set. Would it take another 1 CMC elf, another big green finisher? Or what?

Just hypotheticals since I feel like elves is already solved and it'll take something big to change it.

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Not by a long shoot. exalted does nothing when you are attacking with more than 1 little dude and the ability to take out cards with flashback/REANIMATOR TARGETS is huge.
I have hope on Nissa from origins. A tutoreable planeswalker is no joke (unless of course, if it does nothing for our gameplan).

Hey guys, I'm new here but I'm going to play in my first major legacy tournament in a couple weeks at SCG Dallas. I've been grinding the deck on modo and basing my deck off of Julian's deck as it's currently listed on his website. Does anyone have suggestions for what to change when playing in paper vs. online? I don't have access to any Tropical Islands so I would have to be sticking with BG (I have a Taiga so I can splash for Ruric Thar if people think that is the correct choice).

Thanks for the help!

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Originally Posted by Snickelfritz

Ok, I'll admit I overlooked Karakas. I stand by the rest of it, and they still have to naturally draw into that Karakas within a turn or two with no card draw or library manipulation.

Also, there's no need to be a dick about it. That's not going to help convince anyone; it's only going to lead to people not wanting to contribute anything.

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It's a matter of redundancy to draw into Plows, Karakas, Flickerwisp for stalling, Mirran Crusader, etc. even if the matchup is sure a positive one overall.

I commented because the topic of removal via Karakas (D&T), Terminus (who cares for the 6 life lost if you have no board left?) and bounce (combo) was really too obvious to miss and follow up with a bold "I will go for Ruric no matter what the matchup and have never been disappointed". I personally don't care for contributions which are false and show clear indicators of no actual testing. Now I'm being a dick about that ;)

There's nothing false about that, and I've done plenty of testing. Getting Ruric Thar removed in those situations (besides Karakas, I already admitted I missed that one) does not leave you in any worse position than hitting for less-than-lethal with a Craterhoof would, and very possibly leaves you in a better position.
If I hit Miracles for 15 or so with Craterhoof plus elves and they Terminus, I'm not doing any better than if they tucked Ruric plus elves. If they don't have the Terminus yet, Ruric prevents them from digging for it.
If I hit any kind of combo deck for 15 or so and pass the turn, 8 or 9 times out of 10 they're just going to ignore it and kill me. If I pull out Ruric I at least force them to have an answer right away, and if they don't have one ready then they just can't go off. They have at best one more draw step before they're too low on health even to remove him.

I never suggested that Ruric Thar was my first option; obviously a Craterhoof that can get through lethal damage is the best choice, and there are situations where dropping them to 2 or 3 is just as good. But there is virtually no (common) matchup that doesn't have some way to either remove a Craterhoof and stabilize or ignore it and kill you back if they survive.
There are any number of situations where sticking an early Ruric puts you at an insane advantage when a Craterhoof would have done only 8-10 damage. I've resolved an early NO against Reanimator before they had any targets in the yard, locking them out of the game - they have to take at least 12 damage to put a creature in the yard and reanimate it, actual Reanimate is a dead card, and they can't Lotus Petal into Exhume either. Craterhoof there would have taken him to something like 11 or 12, only to end up facing down a Griselbrand next turn. I've resolved a GSZ for 6 against Delver (where getting to 8 can be rough) where Ruric saved me just because he has reach and I didn't get beat down by Delvers after my Elves got killed. I've stuck Ruric against Infect, who basically can't win while he's on the board - on top of triggers for all their pump spells, you have a 6/6 vigilance reach that they have to get through.
Sometimes you're able to cast a turn two Natural Order. When you have that, I'm pretty sure your opponent naturally drawing Karakas is the only situation where Ruric Thar is not miles better than Craterhoof.

To be clear, this is all comparing just those two NO/GSZ targets, both of which I run main deck. I also have a Progenitus in my sideboard, and against D&T specifically (as well as Lands) that is typically a pretty easy swap for Ruric Thar.

Something close to your global statement (that is, having a Ruric Thar in play puts you in a very favorable position against most of the meta) is sure true, as sure that it is false that going the Ruric road is always a good choice when hoof is non lethal, no matter the MU. And that getting a StPed Ruric does not leave you in a worst sitution after you lose a creature and a NO just for a 12-life swing.


Vs D&T, elves, Maverick, merfolk, (Sneak & Show,) ... Ruric is almost a blank. As all these decks together represent no more than 10% of the meta, I would argue that Ruric is a very good card.

But against the aforementioned decks, if hoof is non-lethal, it is often better to just wait one turn, hoping to draw into an elf/dryad/fetch to make a lethal hoof next turn. Or, if the reason hoof is non-lethal is because you have many summoned sick / tapped creatures, going the regal way if you run the force.

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Originally Posted by Snickelfritz

There's nothing false about that, and I've done plenty of testing. Getting Ruric Thar removed in those situations (besides Karakas, I already admitted I missed that one) does not leave you in any worse position than hitting for less-than-lethal with a Craterhoof would, and very possibly leaves you in a better position.

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This completely ignores every situation in which you drop your opponent to 5 or less life and put him into the struggle to stabilize as every creature you drop puts him into grave danger. There is a canyon-like gap between playing Hoof in the face of a Plowshare or a Ruric and another one as large if your opponent sweeps the board for 6 life (a turn later the relaxed way) compared to clearing the field after being slapped for 15 with haste (have terminus NOW?). That's why I'm on the fence about your bold statements which does even consider situations like this which are very real against Miracles.

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Originally Posted by Snickelfritz

If I hit Miracles for 15 or so with Craterhoof plus elves and they Terminus, I'm not doing any better than if they tucked Ruric plus elves. If they don't have the Terminus yet, Ruric prevents them from digging for it.

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You gamble for them having terminus ready or die (either leathal attack, not finding Terminus next turn or due to your follow up creatures) compared to giving them a whole freaking turn to find a Karakas, Terminus or Plow to turn your NO into a mere double-bolt. Hoof laughs at Plows, just saying. It is also news to me that Ruric messes with SDT + Fetchlands which is Miracles main trait to dig for cards. Seriously, what's your testing about if you miss Karakas from D&T and the SDT+Fetchland durdling of Miracles?

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Originally Posted by Snickelfritz

If I hit any kind of combo deck for 15 or so and pass the turn, 8 or 9 times out of 10 they're just going to ignore it and kill me. If I pull out Ruric I at least force them to have an answer right away, and if they don't have one ready then they just can't go off. They have at best one more draw step before they're too low on health even to remove him.

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Depends. Sure, combo is where Ruric shines if he comes down fast, but combo decks like the ones containing S&T can plain ignore Ruric to some degree. You can even S&T into Omniscience, Wish for Eldamri's Call and slap you with Emrakul if they didn't lost life so far. Mind, that S&T is now the most common combo deck in the metagame.

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Originally Posted by Snickelfritz

I never suggested that Ruric Thar was my first option; obviously a Craterhoof that can get through lethal damage is the best choice, and there are situations where dropping them to 2 or 3 is just as good. But there is virtually no (common) matchup that doesn't have some way to either remove a Craterhoof and stabilize or ignore it and kill you back if they survive.

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You're missing the point: Spotremoval is everywhere, Sweepers which can deal with a hasty army are limited to Terminus. Ruric is a lot more fragile than Hoof in regards to opposing countermeasures starting with Karakas to Plows to simple blocking with Skulls/Nemesis/SwordOfFire&Ice to trumping (Emrakul/Reanimator).

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Originally Posted by Snickelfritz

There are any number of situations where sticking an early Ruric puts you at an insane advantage when a Craterhoof would have done only 8-10 damage. I've resolved an early NO against Reanimator before they had any targets in the yard, locking them out of the game - they have to take at least 12 damage to put a creature in the yard and reanimate it, actual Reanimate is a dead card, and they can't Lotus Petal into Exhume either. Craterhoof there would have taken him to something like 11 or 12, only to end up facing down a Griselbrand next turn.

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Shall we do the math for the average probability to put down a Ruric before a Reanimtor plays Careful Study or Entomb depending on draw/play scenarios? You make a point for a fringe scenario in a even rarer matchup. Entomb into Exhume still wrecks your gameplan here no matter your magic turn two Ruric. 12 Life for a 7/7 lifelinking Demon is more than enough to kill you and your best case scenario.

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Originally Posted by Snickelfritz

I've resolved a GSZ for 6 against Delver (where getting to 8 can be rough) where Ruric saved me just because he has reach and I didn't get beat down by Delvers after my Elves got killed. I've stuck Ruric against Infect, who basically can't win while he's on the board - on top of triggers for all their pump spells, you have a 6/6 vigilance reach that they have to get through.
Sometimes you're able to cast a turn two Natural Order. When you have that, I'm pretty sure your opponent naturally drawing Karakas is the only situation where Ruric Thar is not miles better than Craterhoof.

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This is getting ridiculous. "I resolved a 7-mana-Sorcery against a deck with Daze, Pierce, FoW and Wasteland after my Elves got killed!". I'm honestly interrested in that exact scenario to reach 7 mana and more without Elves/Cradle-Mana. Packmaster would have dine the trick as well I guess. I don't get your point about Infect. They have unblockable attackers and can otherwise just trample over your Ruric with various pump/berserk combinations. All given that your Ruric is fast enough, of course.

As said before, Ruric is crap against ANY decks a) running more than enough spot-removal (no matter if it's Plow, Karakas or Chain of Vapor) and b) not needing to chain 3+ spells to win (S&T, Reanimator, 12-Post, etc.)

My main problem with Ruric is that he's often a turn too slow for the decks where you want him on the battlefield (ANT/TES). And the (few) times that he isn't too slow, there's still the possibility your opponent Chains the bastard back to your hand and kills you anyway.

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Originally Posted by jdc214

Hey guys, I'm new here but I'm going to play in my first major legacy tournament in a couple weeks at SCG Dallas. I've been grinding the deck on modo and basing my deck off of Julian's deck as it's currently listed on his website. Does anyone have suggestions for what to change when playing in paper vs. online? I don't have access to any Tropical Islands so I would have to be sticking with BG (I have a Taiga so I can splash for Ruric Thar if people think that is the correct choice).

Thanks for the help!

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looks like your post got lost in the battle for ruric. I got this.

As a general rule for SCG events: expect a lot less combo than on MODO. Unless there has been a crazy shift in the past months, there is generally way more delver, blade, and maverick(mother of runes decks) variants in paper. Basically, you still want combo hate because it's still our worst matchup, but dedicated combo hate isn't necessary. You need to be able to beat jittes, delvers, low cost-board wipes (pyroclasm, golgari charm, e.plague), and miracles. Cards like abrupt decay and pithing needle are popular because they provide universal generic answers to many decks. Make sure you're packing at least one ooze as well, because lands is a thing.

and yes, stick to BG...you don't need any cute stuff like teeg (altho flusterstorm isn't terrible)

oh and advice on ruric: sb him if at all. The storm decks aren't as popular in paper...and sb'ing into him and discard should be fine. He's not good enough for main deck for US/SCG meta, IMO. Games you might win with him are games you definitely win with hoof 9/10 times (since that means no countermagic is present and you're not already dead).

disclaimer: If you see a ton of people sleeving up LEDs, lava spikes, and punishing fires...then by all means...go for it.