All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

When, please show me the Combo or Control deck which runs the full 20 cards listed. Where is your Counterbalance or Griselbrand deck with Treasure Cruise? Is it THAT hard to admit that you find these 20-card-shell ONLY in Aggro-Control variants?

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I do admit that I consider TC / DTT as similar cards, which isn't entirely correct.
Evidently the deck that runs all 20 is jeskai ascendency and omnitell, in brainstorm/ponder/force/probe/DTT or TC (+ pre-ordain for omnitell and spell pierce for ascendency combo)
Also Sneakshow runs brainstorm/ponder/force/probe/+someDTT/+some spellPierce
Also High Tide runs brainstorm/ponder/force/probe/+sometimesDTT/+sometimes spellpierce

Other combodecks don't run TC or DTT but share other blueshell cards:
Reanimator: brainstorm/ponder/force/daze
Storm: brainstorm/ponder/preordian/probe

Whereas a temposhell would consist of:
brainstorm/ponder/force/probe/TC/daze/spellPierce

Sometimes its a 16 card overlap, sometimes a 24 card overlap, with some varying cards like daze, spellpierce, preordain, and differentiation between Treasure Cruise and Dig Through time

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Can someone please close this thread? There is no end to this pointless discussion.

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That will not happen. I have spoken with a mod on this topic and without directly quoting a message sent in private, the answer was "Best to have all the talk in one place over playing wack a mole with it in other threads".

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Originally Posted by Nielsie

Other (non-blue) strategies would find themselves in a much better position to fight this cantrip engine and I think that's what this is all about.

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And I spend a serious time and several post in the last weeks to explain why this isn't the case

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

And I spend a serious time and several post in the last weeks to explain why this isn't the case

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Reason the more to ban Brainstorm + Ponder (or Treasure Cruise) because with this reasoning, blue already has fixed versions of Brainstorm and Ponder just like black has fixed versions of Demonic Tutor and green has fixed versions of Survival...

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

And I spend a serious time and several post in the last weeks to explain why this isn't the case

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You can explain all you want. That does not make you right. This vision you have that all cantrips are created equal is so misguided that it does not even bare talking about. To believe that, one would have to not understand the very basics of the game and also not have experienced it first hand. I do not know whether to laugh or get upset about all that, but seriously I have to ask...have you ever played Legacy?

I don't think he has ever said that all cantrips are created equal. Obviously, the "blue shell" is weaker if it is missing Brainstorm (and/or Ponder and/or Treasure Cruise). His point is this doesn't magically make anything else better. Jund/Maverick/Goblins/whatever gain some ground in that the "blue decks" become slightly less consistent, and likely merge into UWx Stoneblade. So, at the cost of consolidating all the blue decks in the room into roughly 1 shell and removing Miracles/Storm/SnT/A pile of fringe decks from the meta (and significantly weakening tempo decks), we get the benefit of making a bunch of tier 2-3 decks into tier 1.5-2.5 decks. From a tournament standpoint, I guess it might be preferable to only have 1-2 "blue" decks as it might make some sideboard decisions easier, but the cost of losing huge swaths of playable decks feels like too much.

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Originally Posted by Finn

You can explain all you want. That does not make you right. This vision you have that all cantrips are created equal is so misguided that it does not even bare talking about. To believe that, one would have to not understand the very basics of the game and also not have experienced it first hand. I do not know whether to laugh or get upset about all that, but seriously I have to ask...have you ever played Legacy?

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Why not stop putting words in my mouth, but adressing my argument about the "Hydras head" and potential results instead?

But you think it's worth bitching about decks and cards which became less viable because of newer printings and claim those new cards need to be banned or neutralized so 6-year-old decks are playable again, all while claiming the Legacy metagame is sooooo stagnant? I'm sure you and your brothers in mind don't get the idiocy of those contradicting ideas.

My patience to read bullshit like "back in the days, Legacy was a 5-color-rainbow-ponyland!" has come to an end. The metagame structure of Aggro-control/combo/control or the presence of Brainstorm/cantrip shells since 2006 has not changed much except that stupid turn-sideways-only doesn't cut it anymore.


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Originally Posted by LennonMarx

I don't think he has ever said that all cantrips are created equal. Obviously, the "blue shell" is weaker if it is missing Brainstorm (and/or Ponder and/or Treasure Cruise). His point is this doesn't magically make anything else better. Jund/Maverick/Goblins/whatever gain some ground in that the "blue decks" become slightly less consistent, and likely merge into UWx Stoneblade. So, at the cost of consolidating all the blue decks in the room into roughly 1 shell and removing Miracles/Storm/SnT/A pile of fringe decks from the meta (and significantly weakening tempo decks), we get the benefit of making a bunch of tier 2-3 decks into tier 1.5-2.5 decks. From a tournament standpoint, I guess it might be preferable to only have 1-2 "blue" decks as it might make some sideboard decisions easier, but the cost of losing huge swaths of playable decks feels like too much.

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Praise the lord for everyone like you who at least comprehends my arguments. It's everyones choice to agree or disagree with my conclusion, but the constant "I did not read what you wrote, but I think you said [enter nonsense created from thin air], and this feeds my counterargument!" really drives me mad.

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Originally Posted by LennonMarx

I don't think he has ever said that all cantrips are created equal. Obviously, the "blue shell" is weaker if it is missing Brainstorm (and/or Ponder and/or Treasure Cruise). His point is this doesn't magically make anything else better. Jund/Maverick/Goblins/whatever gain some ground in that the "blue decks" become slightly less consistent, and likely merge into UWx Stoneblade. So, at the cost of consolidating all the blue decks in the room into roughly 1 shell and removing Miracles/Storm/SnT/A pile of fringe decks from the meta (and significantly weakening tempo decks), we get the benefit of making a bunch of tier 2-3 decks into tier 1.5-2.5 decks. From a tournament standpoint, I guess it might be preferable to only have 1-2 "blue" decks as it might make some sideboard decisions easier, but the cost of losing huge swaths of playable decks feels like too much.

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You get dozens of playable lists back if you significantly weaken the blue shell. The only list you lose is Miracles. The other lists are all still viable they're just not head and heels above the meta due to a broken shell that invalidates almost all non-blue lists.

We wouldn't be having this conversation right now if 70% of the lists in the meta were playing 12 or more of Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Rift Bolt, Monastery Swiftspear, Young Pyromancer, Gutshot and Forked Bolt. The only question at that point would be what do you need to ban to bring the red shell back to the field so other lists can compete on a more even footing.

We wouldn't be having the conversation if that red shell meta had no blue lists at all in it because blue was too weak to do anything more than contribute a power card here and there to mainly red shell lists. People would be crying for the chance to play blue because without counter spells the meta was too predictable. That's where black is right now, btw. No black lists at all outside of the blue shell ANT and only ONE black creature that sees play in multiple lists in Deathrite Shaman, which is half-green.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

You get dozens of playable lists back if you significantly weaken the blue shell.

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And at the same time you guys want to reinstate 6+ year old decks, you complain about a stagnant metagame. Lawl

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

And at the same time you guys want to reinstate 6+ year old decks, you complain about a stagnant metagame. Lawl

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It's a horribly stagnant metagame at the moment. The only "new" lists that have entered the meta in the last two years are blue shell or MUD - a list that has been kicking around for years and has finally found the meta where it's good.

The revelation in the last SCG just concluded was "guess what? Even Kird Apes are good in the blue shell!"

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

It's a horribly stagnant metagame at the moment. The only "new" lists that have entered the meta in the last two years are blue shell or MUD - a list that has been kicking around for years and has finally found the meta where it's good.

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Because DRS, Containment Priest, Deluge, Decay, etc. had absolutely no impact...

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Why not stop putting words in my mouth, but adressing my argument about the "Hydras head" and potential results instead?

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Sure. I was hoping to avoid fundamentals, but I can do that. You are wrong. Your hydra analogy is wrong.

Try this exercise about the results of banning a card:
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When you ban the best card, another may fill its place. But that card will not be as good, and the decks it enables will not be quite as good. result: positive
When you ban the best card, no other card can fill its place because the banned card was just that much better than everything else. result: positive
When you ban a card another card fills its place just as well and the decks it enables continue to dominate because the card you banned was not actually any better than similar cards. result: negative
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Which one of these is absolutely stupid because it presumes that Brainstorm is no better than Serum Vision?

I don't care about old decks. No deck has a right to exist. I only want you to acknowledge what should be obvious: A card that is consistently present in 70% of top decks and dominates deck construction confines is a problem for the format.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

You get dozens of playable lists back if you significantly weaken the blue shell. The only list you lose is Miracles. The other lists are all still viable they're just not head and heels above the meta due to a broken shell that invalidates almost all non-blue lists.

We wouldn't be having this conversation right now if 70% of the lists in the meta were playing 12 or more of Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Rift Bolt, Monastery Swiftspear, Young Pyromancer, Gutshot and Forked Bolt. The only question at that point would be what do you need to ban to bring the red shell back to the field so other lists can compete on a more even footing.

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I am legitimately curious what decks we get back that aren't still a mile worse than a stoneblade deck that fixes its already consistent draws with Preordain and Serum Visions instead of BS and Ponder. Now, granted, there are ripple effects. Aggro gains some ground by not getting terminused, obviously, but those decks still seem poorly positioned against a format that glomps onto Esperblade. "Those other lists" are hardly head and shoulders better than anything, though certainly some of them are tier 1.

This thread has become a ridiculous discussion about colours as if they were in a way important for Legacy. I would advise you, Lemnear, to backtrack and stop throwing arguments in a burning bucket.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

You get dozens of playable lists back if you significantly weaken the blue shell. The only list you lose is Miracles. The other lists are all still viable they're just not head and heels above the meta due to a broken shell that invalidates almost all non-blue lists.

We wouldn't be having this conversation right now if 70% of the lists in the meta were playing 12 or more of Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Rift Bolt, Monastery Swiftspear, Young Pyromancer, Gutshot and Forked Bolt. The only question at that point would be what do you need to ban to bring the red shell back to the field so other lists can compete on a more even footing.

We wouldn't be having the conversation if that red shell meta had no blue lists at all in it because blue was too weak to do anything more than contribute a power card here and there to mainly red shell lists. People would be crying for the chance to play blue because without counter spells the meta was too predictable. That's where black is right now, btw. No black lists at all outside of the blue shell ANT and only ONE black creature that sees play in multiple lists in Deathrite Shaman, which is half-green.

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I don't think you understand so i'll post this in steps.

1) Right now, blue shell is stronger than random tier 2 nonblue decks by a value of X
2) As a result, people play the blue shell
3) After bannings, blue shell becomes stronger than random tier 2 nonblue decks by a value of Y, but Y is less than X
4) People who want to win will still play the blue shell, because it's still slightly better

It doesn't matter if tier 2 jank loses 8/10 times now versus 7/10 times in the future, people still won't play it.

The blue shell isn't even that much stronger, given the fact that it performed relative to its representation.

I'd even argue that random tier 2 jank decks need brainstorm to remain as competitive as they are. Why should decks like Food Chain, Hightide, and Landstill be casualties of war and give up their space for other tier 2 decks like Pox, Zoo, and Goblins just because people hate the fact that they use brainstorm?

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Originally Posted by Finn

Sure. I was hoping to avoid fundamentals, but I can do that. You are wrong. Your hydra analogy is wrong.

Try this exercise about the results of banning a card:
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When you ban the best card, another may fill its place. But that card will not be as good, and the decks it enables will not be quite as good. result: positive
When you ban the best card, no other card can fill its place because the banned card was just that much better than everything else. result: positive
When you ban a card another card fills its place just as well and the decks it enables continue to dominate because the card you banned was not actually any better than similar cards. result: negative
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Which one of these is absolutely stupid because it presumes that Brainstorm is no better than Serum Vision?

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If you would have read ANY of my previous posts on the topic, you knew I talked about the bolded only, but you obviously did not. That's why I said you should fucking stop to put words in my mouth, smartass.

I also said that the gap between Brainstorm + Ponder and Ponder + Preordain (with Brainstorm banned) is much smaller than the one between Ponder + Preordain and running no cantrips at all, which resulted into my prediction that running without cantrips (read: the blue cantrip shell) does not get more attractive in terms of consistancy and card selection. Ergo, there is no reason that the number of non-blue decks should automatically increase and the effect of the banning of a single cantrip vanishes, not to talk about the side effects on decks like Miracles and the streamlining of (aggro-)control shells and combo decks.

Edit: AznSeal already wrote down a step-by-step guide for comprehending. ;)

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Originally Posted by AznSeal

I don't think you understand so i'll post this in steps.

1) Right now, blue shell is stronger than random tier 2 nonblue decks by a value of X
2) As a result, people play the blue shell
3) After bannings, blue shell becomes stronger than random tier 2 nonblue decks by a value of Y, but Y is less than X
4) People who want to win will still play the blue shell, because it's still slightly better

It doesn't matter if tier 2 jank loses 8/10 times now versus 7/10 times in the future, people still won't plat it.

The blue shell isn't even that much stronger, given the fact that it performed relative to its representation

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Thank you for being much more eloquent than I. This is exactly what I was trying and failing to get at.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Can someone please close this thread? There is no end to this pointless discussion.

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Please no. This is hillarious to read. So many flawed arguments, and wrongfully taken lines of argumentation.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Isn't this a slippery slope to take for every colors competitive shell? White decks from D&T to Blade to Maverick start with 4 SFM and 4 Plows (even in some Miracles we see the SFM!). No one complains about that. Green/Black decks start with 4 DRS and 4 GSZ. I still hear no one complaining. I could also point to most red decks and Lightning Bolt. No competitive deck starts from the scratch with 60 undefined cards. Period.

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4 cards that go into virtually EVERY deck (which, according the Mental Misstep numbers before its ban for abundancy, is somewhere around 70-75%). Nonblue cards don't go into 70+% of all decks, unlike Brainstorm.

I could use tcdecks, but their formating is dumb.

The first nonblue spell in the format is Lightning Bolt at ~ 30%, or 32.4% for StP in Paper. That's why nobody is complaining, because they don't go into every goddamn deck, as it should be.

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Originally Posted by AznSeal

1) Right now, blue shell is stronger than random tier 2 nonblue decks by a value of X
2) As a result, people play the blue shell
3) After bannings, blue shell becomes stronger than random tier 2 nonblue decks by a value of Y, but Y is less than X
4) People who want to win will still play the blue shell, because it's still slightly better

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How do you know that value Y is positive and not negative? I am not convinced, especially if we are talking about banning Brainstorm and Ponder (or TC). Moreover, if value Y is positive this would mean we urgently need to ban Brainstorm and Ponder (or TC) because blue already has 'overpowered' cantrips, it would mean it needs Brainstorm and Ponder as much as Black needs Demonic Tutor.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

And at the same time you guys want to reinstate 6+ year old decks, you complain about a stagnant metagame. Lawl

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I much prefer the current meta + 6 year old decks than only the current meta. I think that's obvious. The more valid decks, the better the meta-game, the more fun I have in Legacy. Offcourse that is subjective, I like a wider and more open meta-game. I can understand other people prefer a small restricted meta-game, but just admit it then!

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

Please no. This is hillarious to read. So many flawed arguments, and wrongfully taken lines of argumentation.

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Also WotC R&D is totally reading right now. In fact, I think Richard Garfield himself is a regular visitor to The Source, and will probably step in and do something if we all bitch and moan enough.

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Originally Posted by LennonMarx

I am legitimately curious what decks we get back that aren't still a mile worse than a stoneblade deck that fixes its already consistent draws with Preordain and Serum Visions instead of BS and Ponder. Now, granted, there are ripple effects. Aggro gains some ground by not getting terminused, obviously, but those decks still seem poorly positioned against a format that glomps onto Esperblade. "Those other lists" are hardly head and shoulders better than anything, though certainly some of them are tier 1.

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We get Junk back, more than just Maverick. We get Suicide Bw back. We probably get Goblins back with some updates. It's insane that Goblin Rabblemaster didn't revive Goblins given the synergy. That's exactly the controlling card for the long game that Goblins has been missing. It's the card that makes Aether Vial to 3 actually a good play on the way deeper into the curve, and Goblins has always had cards deeper into the curve they were looking to cheat into play. It's the card that should have revived Goblin Lackey. We might even get some of the more control centric lists back once Miracles isn't 10x better than any of them.

The meta has been so constrained by a few lists over the last several years.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rbh59wdCEnc

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

We get Junk back, more than just Maverick. We get Suicide Bw back. We probably get Goblins back with some updates. It's insane that Goblin Rabblemaster didn't revive Goblins given the synergy. That's exactly the controlling card for the long game that Goblins has been missing. It's the card that makes Aether Vial to 3 actually a good play on the way deeper into the curve, and Goblins has always had cards deeper into the curve they were looking to cheat into play. It's the card that should have revived Goblin Lackey. We might even get some of the more control centric lists back once Miracles isn't 10x better than any of them.

The meta has been so constrained by a few lists over the last several years.

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Most all decks can answer a turn one Goblin Lackey. With all the tools to sweep small creatures in Red, White and Black, Goblins needs some serious innovation to come back, not just banning a card. Your argument makes it sound like Brainstorm kills your ability to innovate.

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Originally Posted by Nielsie

How do you know that value Y is positive and not negative? I am not convinced, especially if we are talking about banning Brainstorm and Ponder (or TC). Moreover, if value Y is positive this would mean we urgently need to ban Brainstorm and Ponder (or TC) because blue already has 'overpowered' cantrips, it would mean it needs Brainstorm and Ponder as much as Black needs Demonic Tutor.


I much prefer the current meta + 6 year old decks than only the current meta. I think that's obvious. The more valid decks, the better the meta-game, the more fun I have in Legacy. Offcourse that is subjective, I like a wider and more open meta-game. I can understand other people prefer a small restricted meta-game, but just admit it then!

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Excellent question. Let's pretend that Y becomes positive and nonblue decks become better than blue decks. We can't group ALL nonblue decks together (like what some people try to do with blue decks) but let's say Y is positive and Elves, Lands, or hell, Jund became the best deck. Then the people who played blue will migrate over to play the next best deck and the cycle will continue. Spikes will play the best deck, no matter what. Right now, the best deck just happens to be blue.

IMPORTANT: I still don't know why people group decks like storm, delver, stoneblade, and sneakNshow as the same deck......
If i remember correctly, the data last posted showed the most popular deck was UR Delver followed by Miracles. In a meta without blue, the best deck may be Death N taxes followed by Maverick. Why is it fair to group UR Delver and miracles as "blue decks" but not DnT and Maverick as "white decks"? Miracles and UR Delver share lands, ponder, force of will, and brainstorm. Maverick and DnT share stoneforge mystic, mother of runes, swords to plowshares, wastelands, thalia. Hell, if you look at junk and elves, they share deathrite shaman, abrupt decay, green sun's zenith

People here complain that they're sick of turn 1: brainstorm when storm does brainstorm to digging to comboing off and deathblade does brainstorm to digging to board control to big creature. They claim that's the same "deck". Why is that the same but a turn 1: deathrite shaman to durdling to comboing off with elves different from turn 1 deathrite shaman to board control to Tarmogoyf beats (which can apply to BUG delver and Jund...OMG IS ELVES THE SAME DECK AS BUG DELVER????)?

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

We get Junk back, more than just Maverick. We get Suicide Bw back. We probably get Goblins back with some updates. It's insane that Goblin Rabblemaster didn't revive Goblins given the synergy. That's exactly the controlling card for the long game that Goblins has been missing. It's the card that makes Aether Vial to 3 actually a good play on the way deeper into the curve, and Goblins has always had cards deeper into the curve they were looking to cheat into play. It's the card that should have revived Goblin Lackey. We might even get some of the more control centric lists back once Miracles isn't 10x better than any of them.

The meta has been so constrained by a few lists over the last several years.

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If blue became so weakened that none-blue fair decks became the best deck (despite how little the margin), many people would switch over and then you'd complain of the "good stuff shell" aka BGx shell aka Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoy, Lilliana, abrupt decay, hymn to tourach, thoughtseize, or maybe combo will be insane and you'll complain about the combo shell aka LED, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Burning Wish, Lotus Petal.

There will always be best cards, and serious players will always play them.

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Originally Posted by Hoojo

Most all decks can answer a turn one Goblin Lackey. With all the tools to sweep small creatures in Red, White and Black, Goblins needs some serious innovation to come back, not just banning a card. Your argument makes it sound like Brainstorm kills your ability to innovate.

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Brainstorm and Ponder make it too easy to find the first and second pieces of removal. Those two cards contribute more to a format where a good removal suite is 4 to 7 cards than anything else. They make thick lists with lots of redundancy weak by comparison because they find the things you need to easily. They make lists playing 4 bolts and 4 plows much too strong against creature aggro, then the sweepers or the finishers depending on the variant are too much to overcome. They make lists playing a single win-con (Ad Nauseum for example) much too strong. They make lists wanting to play a perverse combo much too strong. The competition they create is mainly between lists playing one part of the blue shell or the other. Only a small group of lists not playing the blue shell can enter that competition and survive but throw a few Kird Apes into the blue shell and you're just fine...

Just weaken the shell enough that redundancy becomes a viable game plan again. Weaken it enough that 7 targeted discard might really disrupt the opponent enough to get everything else off the ground. Weaken it enough that a fatty that hits the board early might actually go the 4 turns needed to win the game with a little more disruption behind it. The only lists that can do that now are blue shell lists playing Delver of Secrets.

It's not that there are good plays and better plays early on, it's whether you can find the play that you need to make like clockwork and that's what the blue shell does. That's why Kird Ape was relevant in Philadelphia for the first time in a long while. Not a great play early but when it's backed up by counters and removal and the ability to easily find what you need anything that is cheap that sticks will do the trick.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

It's insane that Goblin Rabblemaster didn't revive Goblins given the synergy. That's exactly the controlling card for the long game that Goblins has been missing. It's the card that makes Aether Vial to 3 actually a good play on the way deeper into the curve, and Goblins has always had cards deeper into the curve they were looking to cheat into play. It's the card that should have revived Goblin Lackey.

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For reference:
Goblin Rabblemaster

The phrase Other goblin creatures you control attack each turn if able killed Rabblemaster as a playable card in Legacy Vial Goblins.

And Goblin Matron is the good play with Vial on 3 on our way deeper into the curve. Fetch Ringleader >> Profit!

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Originally Posted by AznSeal

If blue became so weakened that none-blue fair decks became the best deck (despite how little the margin), many people would switch over and then you'd complain of the "good stuff shell" aka BGx shell aka Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoy, Lilliana, abrupt decay, hymn to tourach, thoughtseize, or maybe combo will be insane and you'll complain about the combo shell aka LED, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Burning Wish, Lotus Petal.

There will always be best cards, and serious players will always play them.

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I don't want anything to be "the" best list, although I recognize that's always likely to be the case. I do want for "the" best list not to come from a cloud of lists that all include the same GD mechanisms and that play at different tempos along a predictable path of play. I want "the" best list not just to rotate among a few lists that all include the exact same mechanisms with a minor addition or subtraction here or there. Right now we've got a meta where most of the best lists have the same engine and a very similar approach to the game. There are two outliers: Miracles is mid-range control and Elves is combo. Other than that we've got blue shell aggro control all over the place.

Nothing is going to change in that arrangement as long as the blue shell maintains it's superiority in card draw and selection as well as the best reaction cards against a wide range of threats. New power will just get plugged into the old shell and the game will speed up a little bit but play along the same lines that shell has been playing along since Threshold became a thing. That's a horrifically boring meta to play in. it's like Chess only you get randomly screwed when your Rook doesn't show up in time or your opponent pulls a turn 3 Queen out of his ass to end the game, a Queen most often provided courtesy of the King - the blue shell.

If we're fair to the "Decks you get back" stuff; Loam is much worse in the current meta as are wastelands in general (and it has a slew of archtypes, including just using it to supplement CA in things like Junk or Jund.) Fetch->Basic is everywhere and TC's ability to bounce back from waste-spam is problematic for denial strategies unless they get the coveted "you didn't draw lands and I have a Thalia" kinda start.

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

For reference:
Goblin Rabblemaster

The phrase Other goblin creatures you control attack each turn if able killed Rabblemaster as a playable card in Legacy Vial Goblins.

And Goblin Matron is the good play with Vial on 3 on our way deeper into the curve. Fetch Ringleader >> Profit!

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Goblins standing still have been losers since the dawn of time. That's why Goyf began their descent into the cellar. Rabblemaster would be a huge anti-Goyf card, assuming you could play Goblins in this meta to begin with.

So Goblin Rabblemaster is a second main phase play instead of a first main phase play. It's an EoT drop in via vial. It lands after Goblin Lackey has attacked. It's still a ridiculously good card with any Goblin haste enabler and the Goblin shell has a lot of those.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

If we're fair to the "Decks you get back" stuff; Loam is much worse in the current meta as are wastelands in general (and it has a slew of archtypes, including just using it to supplement CA in things like Junk or Jund.) Fetch->Basic is everywhere and TC's ability to bounce back from waste-spam is problematic for denial strategies unless they get the coveted "you didn't draw lands and I have a Thalia" kinda start.

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Yes, Loam lists would also come back, Aggro Loam in particular. Landstill would come back because it never relied on Brainstorm in the first place, being land heavy and having other tutor effects generally part of the plan for when it wanted to create the inflection point. The Landstill variants being played now are basically TurboStill because that's what it takes to keep up with a meta where 70% of the lists are finding their golden path reliably in the first 3 or 4 turns. Moat would be pretty godly against just about everything but Delver, Vendilion Clique and Emrakul, however you'll never get to turn 4 to cast it in this meta and if you do get there and can cast it you'll have to fight a counter war over it most of the time so why bother. If you're wanting to use it in MWC, man that's never going to happen when 65% of the meta at the top tables is rocking Force of Will, courtesy of the blue shell.

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Originally Posted by AznSeal

If blue became so weakened that none-blue fair decks became the best deck (despite how little the margin), many people would switch over and then you'd complain of the "good stuff shell" aka BGx shell aka Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoy, Lilliana, abrupt decay, hymn to tourach, thoughtseize, or maybe combo will be insane and you'll complain about the combo shell aka LED, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Burning Wish, Lotus Petal.

There will always be best cards, and serious players will always play them.

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What keeps this from being applicable is that the "good stuff" shell is vulnerable to fast combo. If the meta switches to heavy jund/lands/d&t decks, then eventually there will be an event where belcher decks destroy the world. That will prompt a rise in combo decks, and then some clever metagamer will bring such Force of Will deck is most viable, probably merfolk. The increased number of force decks set the stage for some midrange control/goodstuff deck. The big problem with the current blue shell is that it is not exhibiting a particularly big weakness to combo, control, or aggro (such as it is in the format), and thus is unlikely to be unseated from its place in the metagame.

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Originally Posted by Hoojo

... Your argument makes it sound like Brainstorm kills your ability to innovate.

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I'm quoting a little out of context, but I feel like that's almost true. It seems like all viable decks are playing for a turn 3 win, playing an anti-cantrip strategy, or playing with brainstorm.

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...It's insane that Goblin Rabblemaster didn't revive Goblins given the synergy. ...

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Goblins died to the flood of super-efficient creatures like Tarmogoyf. Rabblemaster is actively bad against those.

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Originally Posted by Slag

The problem with this is that the "good stuff" shell is vulnerable to fast combo. If the meta switches to heavy jund/lands/d&t decks, then eventually there will be an event where belcher decks destroy the world. That will prompt a rise in combo decks, and then some clever metagamer will bring such Force of Will deck is most viable, probably merfolk. The increased number of force decks set the stage for some midrange control/goodstuff deck. The big problem with the current blue shell is that it is not exhibiting a particularly big weakness to combo, control, or aggro (such as it is in the format), and thus is unlikely to be unseated from its place in the metagame.

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Right, but the different blue decks are weak to different things. UR Delver is weak to fast combo due to the lack of as many counters, SneakNShow is weak to DnT, Miracles is weak to Tron, Storm is weak to tempo/disruption. It's unfair to group them as one deck and saying it's not weak to anything. Trying to group them as one deck with no weaknesses is like saying "hmm, deathrite decks are OP because no deck is good against Junk, BUG Delver, Jund, and elves!"

People saying Brainstorm makes decks 56 cards; so does GSZ.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

Hello! There is a hyperlink->

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EDIT: TL;DR versions are in bold

My actual stance on BS: I think it's fine to keep or kill. Killing it hurts Miracles and Delver IMO, not combo
I should clarify I was speaking primarily on TC. I've never had a real stance on Brainstorm (but typically find the pro-Brainstorm arguments lacking which colors me as anti.) My vision of BS is that it doesn't keep combo in check nor does it hinder it. I feel like it could go away without consequence to combo variants while harming the decks that are most dominant (Delver, Miracles, and by association of what it's best against, Elves.) My argument about swapping to Burning Wish is actually gaining ground in the current meta if you follow Death and others in the U/R Omnitell forum (which kinda proves my point.) Whether or not that means BS should stay or go is moot to me; merely that it doesn't actually matter.

Loam vs. Blue is fine before TC. TC=>less colors and more speed in the format, causing loam to be bad. Brainstorm was never the issue with Loam.
The blue shell is fine to beat down with Loam because Raw CA is how you used to fight blue decks (which seems ironic given the color pie.) Blue decks had Snappy, SFM, or Lily/Jace for CA; but that's it. TC changed that while sturdying up the manabases making Loam undesirable until 3-color decks are in vogue again. That said, my stance on TC is more of it's ripple effect and less of the card itself. I feel like TC is a fine, balanced card; and it's BS/FoW that allow it to be run as a 4x since it's conditional-ness is compensated for easily.


I think TC and BS could stay if they'd unban Mind Twist. It's CA happens in one go and it's good against every tier'd deck IMO.
I'd hate to see TC go since it typically isn't why I lose a game; it's a fun card, and it encourages a longer game. The problem is that BS + TC + etc.. is showing itself to be a problem IMO. I'd be happy if they experimented with taking Mind Twist off the do-dad since it compensates for TC by offering black a massive CA swing in a comparable time frame. (I.E. I can also get +2 CA right now if I cast it for X=3. That seems fair.) Mind Twist additionally seems interesting in Storm since it hits for 1 on Ad Nausium (making it a safe addition) but turns into a 3 card hymn with a ritual T2 if they need time. It's weak to Teeg; and all of this combines to make it seem like a good balanced card that would help level the meta.

People think Twist sucks; but it's mainable and has interesting applications, even if it usually just neuters a TC
I realize most people think it'd have little to no impact; but if you TC T4 and have 3 cards in hand and I twist T4 and take them away; we're all good. Mind Twists' color-lightness is all the difference between the usability of Hymn and the extra mana it has. The fact Maverick could make you discard 3-5 T3 is a scary prospect that I imagine would level the playing field and allow a better, mainable solution to combo, TC, and Delver (all of which need several cards in hand to be effective.) BS is also a card that relies on hand-size to be good (you want a shuffle effect and you don't want a brain-lock) and Mind Twist neuters that.

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Originally Posted by AznSeal

Right, but the different blue decks are weak to different things. UR Delver is weak to fast combo due to the lack of as many counters, SneakNShow is weak to DnT, Miracles is weak to Tron, Storm is weak to tempo/disruption. It's unfair to group them as one deck and saying it's not weak to anything. Trying to group them as one deck with no weaknesses is like saying "hmm, deathrite decks are OP because no deck is good against Junk, BUG Delver, Jund, and elves!"

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Fair enough, although I should say I had the force/bs/cruise package specifically in mind when I referenced the "blue shell."

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Originally Posted by kanti

people saying brainstorm makes decks 56 cards; so does gsz.

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lol.

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Originally Posted by Kanti

People saying Brainstorm makes decks 56 cards; so does GSZ.

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And if GSZ was an auto-include in 70% of the lists at the top tables it would be banned at the next update. Think about it.

Also, GSZ is not an auto-include even in lists including green creatures. If the list is mainly green creatures then it's probably going to get a slot but if the list is two or three colors it probably won't. Maverick is the exception to the rule. Jund doesn't play GSZ, BUG doesn't play GSZ, RUG doesn't play GSZ, etc.

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Originally Posted by Slag

Fair enough, although I should say I had the force/bs/cruise package specifically in mind when I referenced the "blue shell."

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And that's basically only UR Delver, and I guess Jeskai stoneblade.