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I was planning on dropping it earlier, but no one seemed interested, so I reckoned it could be a bad choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ-JKidd
I've been working without green for some weeks now and I don't miss the colout at all.
The deck runs more smoothely, which compensates for the loss of Decay and Swarm.
Additionally, Red Elemental Blast often is good enough as well to force through the combo.
Lately there has been a blossoming of the UB Tezzeret deck (aka Tezzerator). That deck runs 4x Chalice of the Void in the main deck. Goblins is another deck that can easily adapt 4 chalice in their board against a combo heavy meta. I'd be very uncomfortable playing against any deck rolling with chalices without Abrupt Decay. Perhaps I just need to lose the training Wheels, I dunno. We can go off with one chalice on the board, but it's difficult. It feels close to as oppressive as a top/balance lock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Maybe it's also because I don't feel that my mana base suffers much from the splash of green. Meh, I dunno.
it's really strange to me. people says that burning wish in ant is awful, but still, the last winning list of storm on a gp was tnt (gp ghent)
Timo isn't playing BW in Ant anymore. BW was seen as necessary evil at this time. He is now playing a version with 16 cantrips and redsplash only for PiF (and green in the board for Decay and Carpets).Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberTooth
Decay and shaman were printed at the same time...Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ-JKidd
Decay answers way more than just counter balance. With hatebears including Meddling Mage coming out of blue deck's board more often I'm certainly keeping all three regardless of what build I play.
There is a lot of crap you will lose against if you don't run Decay in the SB, not just counterbalance. I don't see why you can't run a non-green maindeck and run green in the SB for the good SB cards?? I have never run a green dual in the main, but the green SB cards are borderline necessary. I never used to run Xantid Swarm, but after testing a lot of S+T (which will bring in Leylines 95% of the time) you really need it.
Some other people hit on this, but just to make sure it's clear - he wasn't playing 4 colors! Adding a fourth color does impact the mana in a real way when you're trying to do a fetch/dual manabase. Obviously it's workable, but no one claims that TinFins has a consistent manabase and that's I think the only other fetch/dual 4 color combo manabase people play.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberTooth
Seconded. I'd third if I could. Silence effects are incredibly necessary against Show and Tell, and Abrupt Decay is just insanely versatile. Think about all the cards you have to play in the sideboard without Decay - Hurkyl's Recall for Chalice, Slaughter Pact/Virtue's Ruin for bears, Wipe Away for Counterbalance...there's just not enough slots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
You have REB...in your LED combo deck? Uhhhh. Ok. Also good luck resolving a 1-drop with Counterbalance in play. It happens, but they do play like 15 1s for a reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
But more than that, that whole line of thinking doesn't make sense to me. Why would you concede the Miracles matchup instead of building your deck to be able to have game against the field? You're not really giving up a whole lot to do it, either.
Thirded just because I can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
Aluren is another 4c-Fetch-/Dual-Manabase-Deck ... just for the sake of completion. If you've ever tested Aluren you'll notice the mess
You can counter Counterbalance with it, or discard it with Duress/Therapy/Thoughtseize (whatever you have).Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
Additionally, you can bait a card, and respond to their Top activation. You can do a million things.
But like I said, I almost never see Counterbalance anyway, so I don't think I should tune my list against it too much.
Against Show and Tell you can also just let them Leyline their ass off, and then proceed to make 12 Goblin tokens, after discarding their combo piece. Then you cantrip into more discard or a Red Elemental Blast to disrupt them further. Especially the Mono-U OmniShow is rather vulnerable to this kind of stuff. It needs many cards to be able to go off itself, so it's pretty slow, which makes Empty a very valid kill. In addition, Empty improves our discard package (flashback Therapy). I don't feel we NEED green there.
The difference being that we have petals and LEDs and usually only need to use green or red mana once in any given game if at allQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
LED's don't pay for Abrupt Decays, Xantids, Wishes, Carpets and such. To invest Petal + Decay/xyz to get rid of 1 Card (aka 2-1 yourself in a Deck without a pre-combo cardadvantage engine) is questionable at best to comment the existing issue. Havin to cast Xantid or Carpet off a Petal rather than a land is torture. Countless times i'm forced to imprint a Wish or a Rite of Flame to Chrome mox to bridge the Color-gap in TES and it's even worse without the Mox or the Rainbows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Gatz
I was mostly just talking about decay. If I were to play carpets or bees I would rethink my mana base.
How do you plan on discarding their combo pieces with a leyline in play?Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Fair point. Which also advocates for REB by the way.
That's the ENTIRE point to be honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
One REB is not going to do anything against them. It's super awkward and not even that powerful even if you get some weird hand where you are able to successfully cast it. What are you going to do against their Flusterstorms if they have Leyline in play? Most importantly, I don't see how you can ever resolve a relevant Infernal and still have a REB in your hand... This is a classic example of "in theory" arguing, because if you actually played the matchup, you would know that you can't cast discard through a Leyline of Sanctity.
Well like I said, to each his own. In place of AD, I have Pyroclasm in the side, which I can 'Wish, to deal with multiple hatebears. I dont really see a lot of Chalice and CB in my meta so that is one of the reason why I dont run AD's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Gatz
I don't have to know the matchup to know that. And I do know that. I just forgot for a sec.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
What you do is worse: you pretend that the opponent always has all the dangerous stuff against you.
If you would actually play the matchup, you would know what to expect. And them having Leyline AND Flusterstorm AND they start so you cannot go for x Goblins turn 1 is a very rare situation. The situation where they have Leyline AND Force of Will for your Xantid Swarm actually happens more often. Let's look at what they have:
Leyline (3-4): he has 40% chance of getting his Leyline. If he doesn't have it in his opener, he can never cast it. People in the OmniShow thread sometimes advocate against playing Leyline in the first place because of this problem. Mathematically it is just more often bad than good.
Flusterstorm (max. 3): Yes, you are cold to Flusterstorm, but only IF he has Leyline. Otherwise you just Duress it away.
Force of Will (3-4): This is the most dangerous one, because it can stop almost all we have. It is bad against an in hand Empty the Warrens though, and it messes up their plan topo. They need a lot of cards cards to go off: S&T + Omni + EtI/Wish/Intuition, or Halls + EtI + blue card + four lands, or Halls + Omni + Wish + blue card + four lands. I could go on. Force costs them a card, which can often stop them from going off themselves, which buys us time.
In the off chance they draw all their disruption, they can pretty much lock us out of the game regardless of what we play. If we play with Swarms plus a bounce spell, we lose to double Leyline, or to Leyline + Force. If we play Empty the Warrens, we lose to Leyline + Fluster on the draw.
But if they don't have Leyline, which we have 60% chance to happen, our disruption is better and we are likely to win, regardless of what disruption package we play. Discard is just very good against them. It's a game of chance.
Show and Tell wants to have a word with you. Doesn't happen often, but killed me at least once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
I never saw that happening. That's a pretty creative play.
Not something we should count on all the time, but it's an interesting play nonetheless.