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Are there any specific cards to fight the "new" Eldrazi Decks? Most of the time I have 3 tight games against them, winning only 1/3 of them :-/ Still on the UG build and looking for answers to this MU, prefering to avoid cmc1 because of Chalice ;-)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Postman
Explosives are fine they smash chalice and endless one and some cmc2 permanents it's similiar match like merfolks but they are worst i guess unfortunately silent arbiter eats warping wail and dismember or just moment's peace or bridge rules against this stupid populists
I have to imagine that show and tell is likely your best card against them. Can they actually race it if you put in titan or a legend?
Yeah, EE and Peace are already in my 75. Peace is great against them, EE is... let's say it's okay. A resolved Show and Tell is usually game, and I side in Platinum Emperion for this scenario as well :-D but Seer can easily ruin your plan, so it shouldn't be the only one...
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I've recently been testing petrified field. Good for returning eye of ugin should you lose it.
Silent Arbiter's been working well for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Postman
Hey, everyone! This is my first post at The Source; I've chatted a bit with some of you on the Legacy Reddit page about Titan Post and thought I'd start participating a little bit here.
I've been playing mono-green Titan Post for only three weeks at my LGS but I absolutely love the deck so far. I'm going to GPNY tomorrow (Sunday) and want to play in a Legacy side event. I'm moderately confident in my maindeck build but I'm not at all sure of my sideboard, which is kind of a hot mess. Can anyone offer me some quick suggestions? (I'll note that there is no Storm at my LGS, hence the lack of sideboard response to it.)
4 Primeval Titan
2 Veteran Explorer
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pithing Needle
4 Crop Rotation
4 Warping Wail
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Moment's Peace
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Thespian's Stage
6 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (on loan from an obviously awesome friend)
SIDEBOARD:
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Krosan Grip
2 Elephant Grass
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Reclamation Sage
2 Dismember
Other potential sideboard cards I already own are:
Silent Arbiter
Lodestone Golem
Spacial Contortion
What do you all think? Is there anything I should rush to a vendor to buy before round one?
Thanks so much!
Christopher
Only 8 players, 2 of whom were on Miracles. Whatever, I don't care. I won my GP Trial today so I have two byes for Columbus. Same list I posted on the previous page. I'll post a somewhat short writeup a little later.
Hey back! I'll come up with a more comprehensive response later, but at first glance I can say I'm not a huge fan of GSZ, less a fan of Veteran Explorer, and not at all a fan of no Expedition Map. Sideboard is not bad with what you currently have. Spatial Contortion is a risk without a basic Wastes, so you should probably stick with Dismember so Magus of the Moon doesn't screw you over.Quote:
Originally Posted by cwcomposer
All right. Here's my writeup. Like I said, only 8 players, and two were on Miracles, but hey. GP Trial. I'll take it. Because it was only 8 players, it was 3 rounds of Swiss essentially for seeding, then came the elimination rounds.
Round 1: Forgemaster MUD
Fortunately, I got my bad games out of the way.
Turn 1 he goes City of Traitors, Grim Monolith, Crucible of Worlds. Well, I know what my Needle is naming. Unfortunately, he plays Lightning Greaves on turn 2, Lodestone Golem on turns 3 and 4, and proceeds to pound my face in.
Game 2 was hilarious. We ended up with 14 Loci on the battlefield: 7 apiece. Unfortunately, he got an early Staff of Nin and linked up a Platinum Emperion with Batterskull: sure, he doesn't gain life, but he still ended up with a 12/12 with vigilance. Unfortunately, I mostly just topdeck lands and the occasional speed bump for the Emperion. Adding to the hilarity, I end up having to tick a Ratchet Bomb all the way up to 8 to handle both it and an Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. Karn buys me a few turns, and Silent Arbiter buys me at least a dozen, but eventually I run out of obstacles and get crushed.
0-2
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Round 2: Miracles
Miracles is a great matchup for Post. Having said that, this particular pilot is extremely skilled and has beaten me before. I take him very seriously.
Game 1 sees me play a turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer. I see Nahiri, the Harbinger. I am a simple man. I see new tech, I get rid of it. Unfortunately, a second Nahiri handles the Seer. I get another Seer and an Ulamog, but they eat a Terminus. It's okay though, because I get enough land to tutor for Emrakul and win.
Game 2 starts with land drops and a Chalice of the Void on 1. A Vendilion Clique nabs a Thought-Knot Seer, but I get down Kozilek and draw a bunch of cards. He attempts to play Jace, the Mind Sculptor, but I pitch another Seer to counter it. Next turn, he attempts to cast Terminus, but I tutor for a Sower with Eye and counter that, too. Beatdown ensues.
2-0
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Round 3: Miracles
Different player, slightly different deck, pretty much identical results.
Game 1 sees me play a Pithing Needle on turn 2. He lets it resolve, and I name his Flooded Strand. His next land is another Flooded Strand. I follow with a Karn and start munching on his hand, getting a Jace. He eventually gets Council's Judgment, but I get an Ugin. He can't counter it, and Ugin goes all the way. (Aside: let someone resolve an Ugin ult at least once before scooping. It's fun seeing someone vomit seven permanents onto the battlefield. Or so I think.)
Game 2 starts with a lot of counters. He counters Chalice. He counters Thought-Knot Seer. A Revoker meets Swords to Plowshares. Finally, I get a Seer to stick. It grabs a Terminus before getting bottomed by a second one. However, that's all he does, and I eventually tutor up Emrakul and win.
2-0
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Quarterfinals: (6) Miracles
Same opponent I just faced. 2-1 in the Swiss lands me a 3-seed, so with modified play/draw rule, I go first. Totally not complaining about playing Miracles again.
Game 1, I Revoker Sensei's Divining Top and Thought-Knot Seer grabs a Jace. I see two Counterbalance, some lands, and Entreat the Angels. Both creatures get bottomed by a Terminus, but my next Seer gets Snapcaster Mage. He bottoms an All Is Dust with Vendilion Clique, but I get to tutor Emrakul and win.
Game 2 starts with a lot of cards getting answered. Chalice gets countered by Force of Will, Oblivion Sower gets hit by Swords to Plowshares, and Ugin also eats a Force. My second Sower sticks, though, as does Kozilek. Terminus bottoms them both, and he follows with Back to Basics. Unfortunately, he's spent his whole hand, and I eventually get enough mana to cast an All Is Dust. After clearing the way, Emrakul does it again.
2-0
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Semifinals: (7) Jund
With the 7-2 upset, I go first.
Game 1 was largely non-eventful. Thought-Knot Seer demands a Toxic Deluge, his Tarmogoyf can't punch through Silent Arbiter, and a Karn and Emrakul seal the deal.
Game 2 sucked. I mulligan to 5, he gets double Wasteland and a Maelstrom Pulse for my Coercive Portal. His only life-loss is self-inflicted through fetches, Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library.
Game 3 was the most tense game I played all day. He knocks Ugin out of my hand with Thoughtseize and out of his life with Surgical Extraction. All I'm getting are Ancient Tombs, so pretty much everything I cast is painful. Coercive Portal gets Pulsed again. Silent Arbiter falls to Liliana of the Veil. My Ratchet Bomb buys me some breathing room by clearing out a Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library, and then Oblivion Sower handles Liliana. He passes with two lands and Deathrite Shaman, and me at 7 life. My hand is threat-free until I top-deck an Ulamog. I decide to go for it. I Tomb myself down to 3 life and cast Ulamog, targeting his Deathrite and his only red-producing land: a Badlands. Having missed a land drop, he needs to draw a red source and have a Lightning Bolt; otherwise I win. He has neither and I get him.
Part of why I gambled on it is that a lot of players who splash red for direct damage tend to board out some number of Lightning Bolt and/or Forked Bolt against me since most of my threats just can't be burned down. Sure enough, his Bolts were MIA.
2-1
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Finals: (4) Deathblade
The 8 seed had beaten the 1 and the 4 beat the 8, so once again, I was on the play.
Game 1 was an absolute blast. He had triple Wasteland. He Forced Coercive Portal. He Forced Thought-Knot Seer. But while all this devastation was going on, he had no tempo: his board was about as barren as mine. He eventually got down a True-Name Nemesis and an Elspeth, Knight-Errant. He got me down to 7 and played a Sword of Fire and Ice. Unfortunately, his countermagic was gone, allowing for a crushing Ugin play that left only his equipment behind. He got down a Stoneforge Mystic, but Thought-Knot Seer was able to stay in front of it and Ugin carried me the rest of the way.
Game 2, well, sucked. My seven-card hand was five lands and two Pithing Needle. Hindsight being 20/20, I should have kept that since I mulliganed all the way down to 4, eventually keeping a hand with only a Vesuva as a land drop, reasoning that at least it could copy one of his lands and with a Wasteland I would be screwed anyway. It turns out when you keep a 4 card hand, your hand usually sucks, and he didn't even take any cards off Vendilion Clique. Then I died. It was tragic.
Game 3 was also a slow start. I get Wastelanded and my first Chalice of the Void gets countered. Eventually I get down a Thought-Knot Seer and get a break. With the EtB trigger on the stack, my opponent hits it with Swords. This draws him a card, which unfortunately for him is Geist of Saint Traft, which I promptly pluck out of his hand. I follow this up with a Chalice on 1, which stops his Brainstorm. He eventually gets down both a True-Name Nemesis and a Stoneforge Mystic, but unfortunately for him I get Ulamog, taking out both of his white sources: Karakas and Tundra. All Is Dust resolves after that, and Ulamog takes it home.
2-1
Excellent report Zotmaster! I really dig the list. My longtime issue with Turbo Eldrazi has been the threat density, but it looks like you're onto something.
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All right. Here's the more comprehensive response I promised regarding your list. Let me start by saying that while I feel like I know the strategy really, really well after playing it a few years, I nonetheless prioritize differently from some of the other established players on here.Quote:
Originally Posted by cwcomposer
I think Veteran Explorer is a huge waste of X slots, where X is equal to how many you run. The problem with the card is that it essentially warps your deck: that's why Nic Fit exists. Nic Fit has ways of actually getting value from the Explorer, whether it's sacrificing it for some mana, sacrificing it to Cabal Therapy, or whatever else. In your current list, you essentially have to politely ask your opponent to kill it for you in order for it to do anything. True, you could possibly use it to speed bump something, but until you do it's a card that does absolutely nothing. You would much rather have the card actually do, well...anything. Sakura-Tribe Elder would probably also be awful, but at least you can make it hit the yard whenever you want.
That brings me to the rest of your list, and I think the problem card in your list is Green Sun's Zenith. Now, generally speaking, it is a powerful card. You want your Oracle? Great. Need a Titan? Sure. More artifact/enchantment hate out of the board? Awesome, you're covered. But look at what you're giving up in the rest of the deck. Your toolbox lands are all one-ofs. Okay, GSZ can get Dryad Arbor, but what about Maze of Ith or Cavern of Souls? You're counting on either Crop Rotation or Primeval Titan to get them...and Titan won't even get you the Cavern, because you'd want the Cavern first to make sure the Titan resolved. GSZ can get Titan, sure, but it costs you an extra mana and is also vulnerable to Spell Pierce. Adding all of this up, this is really, really bad.
This marks the difference between my colorless list and most of the classic lists. Both lists want to just make land drops every turn in order to do big, awesome things later. However, the colored lists are more reactive: make your land drops, and respond based on what your opponent does. My colorless list is proactive: make land drops and put obstacles in your opponent's way. The colorless list relies on card quality; the colored lists generally rely on card selection. You don't have enough ways to improve your hand. There's no Expedition Map to get those toolbox lands when you need them. There's no Ancient Stirrings to dig for your Candelabra of Tawnos, your planeswalkers, or even those same toolbox lands. The way you get away with one-ofs is with tutoring effects: Trinket Mage in blue works really well in this regard. Maps to find lands and Stirrings for stronger dig is the other way you get away with it.
As for your sideboard, I'd probably either go all in on Relic of Progenitus or all in on Surgical Extraction. Though they're both pieces of grave hate, they fight graveyards a little differently. Relic is stronger against anything running Deathrite Shaman, while Extraction is stronger against Lands and Storm while also giving you a bit of protection against your opponent's Surgicals. Speaking of Storm, I'd highly advise having more answers to it. Sphere effects are extremely strong and also give you play against Omni, Infect or even Eldrazi. Elephant Grass is also fine; compared to Silent Arbiter, it's a little better against Infect, Marit Lage and Griselbrand.
I hope this is helpful.
Just a few quick observations:Quote:
Originally Posted by cwcomposer
- If you're running a GSZ build, you might as well throw a Gaddock Teeg in the board. Adding a 1x Karakas and Savannah is probably enough to support it. Also, you should really prioritize getting a Karakas; it's a key toolbox land.
- I'm not a fan of Relic. Land tutors + Bojuka Bog should be ample graveyard hate.
- I highly recommend going up to the full 4x Vesuvas. They add a lot of consistency to the Post engine, plus gets extra ETB triggers with Bog/Glimmerpost.
- You need Expedition Maps.
- You don't need 4x Pithing Needles, especially all in the main. 3x is ideal, in my experience. 4x Grip also seems excessive.
- I'd run Chasm main over Tabernacle (although I run both main in my build). Tabernacle is much more narrow, and having access to an emergency line of defense is probably better game 1. That said, I'd run both main, especially if you expect a lot of Pyromancer decks.
Thanks for the replies and the advice! Some thoughts to bounce back at you, keeping in mind that I've been playing this deck (and Legacy as a format) for all of three weeks...
Veteran Explorer has been hit or miss for me. I originally tried Pyroclasm as a way to kill it myself (and hopefully take some Young Pyromancer tokens with it!) but I think Zotmaster was correct in suggesting it's not worth the red splash. It's also pretty easy to tell which matchups see Veteran Explorer boarded out for game two; maybe this is a sign. But in the times I've used it, it has been to great effect. Opponents playing any creatures at all seem to look at Veteran Explorer like a deathtouch creature; it has held back small armies because they're afraid to attack and give me extra mana. It's also been nice with Green Sun's Zenith to help ramp and provide a chump blocker in a pinch. Maybe, like most things in Legacy, it would be a local metagame decision.
If I were to take out the Veteran Explorers, I think the fill for the slot would be Expedition Map. I've seen lists that run Map and lists that don't. As a GR Tron player in Modern, I definitely understand the power and versatility of this card... maybe even more so here with all the toolbox lands. It's just a question of what I cut for it and of how many copies I run. Ditto for Ancient Stirrings.
Okay... Green Sun's Zenith. Here's the thing: this card is one of the reasons I wanted to play Legacy. My personal playstyle just lines up so well with this card and every time I cast it I get excited. (I'm obviously totally not a Spike.) I would be more interested in trying to better take advantage of it with some additional toolbox creatures than I would be with cutting it or moving the deck towards a colorless build. I know Zotmaster is against this card, but I'm not ready to cut it just yet.
Gaddock Teeg (and a Savannah to support him) is on my list of next upgrades. I like the idea of the white splash for sideboard cards but I wanted to learn the mono-green version first so I that can understand how and when those cards are an advantage. He's also nice with Green Sun's Zenith.
Serious question from a new Legacy player: what is Karakas good for other than providing white mana and looping your Emrakul? (Or is that alone enough?) Are there legendary creatures my opponent will cast that I want to bounce for protection? Regardless, I plan to add a copy once we find out if it gets an EMA reprint.
I've been thinking of going up to a third Vesuva but I've worried that four is too many. Wouldn't it be bad early game if you had nothing good to copy with it? A forest that comes into play tapped would suck.
I can see the argument for three Pithing Needle instead of four. There is just a ton of Wasteland in my local meta and in the times I've had two Needles to cast, there has always been a valid target for the second. That said, perhaps cutting one allows for an Expedition Map.
I can see playing Glacial Chasm main. I'll try it out.
As for sideboard advice, all I can do at the moment is store it away and evaluate as I get more experience. But it is very much appreciated.
Sounds like nic fit would be a better...fit for you.
(•_•)Quote:
Originally Posted by thatone
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You still have to look at it in terms of what you're giving up in that slot. True, it can stare down one creature, but something like Moment's Peace could stop an entire wave at least once (if they have Deathrite Shaman) and twice otherwise. The card works best when you have ways to give yourself value out of it, other than just kamikaze. Puns notwithstanding, Nic Fit - or more of a Nic Fit approach - is where that works best.Quote:
Originally Posted by cwcomposer
I would run Map first. Basically, if you cut GSZ, also add in Stirrings. Otherwise, fill it with Maps. I personally like at least 3 Maps, if not 4.Quote:
If i were to take out the veteran explorers, i think the fill for the slot would be expedition map. I've seen lists that run map and lists that don't. As a gr tron player in modern, i definitely understand the power and versatility of this card... Maybe even more so here with all the toolbox lands. It's just a question of what i cut for it and of how many copies i run. Ditto for ancient stirrings.
That's totally fine. I'm more against it on account of the fact that your current list didn't have enough ways to access your toolbox lands. Maps help in that regard.Quote:
Okay... Green sun's zenith. Here's the thing: This card is one of the reasons i wanted to play legacy. My personal playstyle just lines up so well with this card and every time i cast it i get excited. (i'm obviously totally not a spike.) i would be more interested in trying to better take advantage of it with some additional toolbox creatures than i would be with cutting it or moving the deck towards a colorless build. I know zotmaster is against this card, but i'm not ready to cut it just yet.
Gaddock teeg (and a savannah to support him) is on my list of next upgrades. I like the idea of the white splash for sideboard cards but i wanted to learn the mono-green version first so i that can understand how and when those cards are an advantage. He's also nice with green sun's zenith.
Here's a brief list. Your opponent's Emrakul. Griselbrand. Iona, Shield of Emeria. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. Marit Lage. Even Vendilion Clique: eventually you will draw something good, and in the mean time you aren't getting bashed for 3 damage a turn.Quote:
Serious question from a new legacy player: What is karakas good for other than providing white mana and looping your emrakul? (or is that alone enough?) are there legendary creatures my opponent will cast that i want to bounce for protection? Regardless, i plan to add a copy once we find out if it gets an ema reprint.
The occasional clunky or have-to-mulligan hand of multiple Vesuvas or other lands that don't tap for mana is mitigated somewhat by the fact that you get more consistency out of your ramp. Also, don't underestimate copying a basic Forest: now you can cast your Primeval Titan under a Moon effect.Quote:
I've been thinking of going up to a third vesuva but i've worried that four is too many. Wouldn't it be bad early game if you had nothing good to copy with it? A forest that comes into play tapped would suck.
EDIT: Mangara of Corondor is also a giant, Post-hating jerk. Just get to him while he's got summoning sickness.
It answers other legendary creatures, especially from Reanimator and Sneak & Show, who can't replay their fatties without another combo piece. Between those two archetypes, you can expect to encounter Griselbrand, Emrakul, Iona, Elesh Norn. Jin-Gitaxias used to be popular too, but I haven't seen much of him in a few years. It can also bounce Clique as a bad pseudo-Maze, which can stave off lethal while you try to topdeck an answer. It can bounce Mangara vs D&T while he's still summoning sick (although that doesn't do much if they have a Vial on 3 too).Quote:
Originally Posted by cwcomposer
It saves your Eldrazi from removal (and Gaddock Teeg, if you go that route).
But honestly, being able to rebuy Eldrazi casting triggers itself is worth it. The Emrakul + Karakas lock is usually enough to get the scoop. And so is devastating your opponent's board with Ulamog + Karakas. The card advantage from Kozilek BoT + Karakas is insane, and should also win you the game.
But I'll tell you a story. At an SCG Open about 3 years ago, I was playing against Dragon Stompy. I boarded out Karakas in game 2 to make room for something, and I ended up sitting across from two Ensnaring Bridges. I tutored up old Ulamog, but – forgetting I boarded out Karakas – decided to hit the Revoker naming Candelabra, thinking I could grab Karakas and use the newly freed mana to take out both Bridges too. Instead, I ended up having to use Eye and the legend rule to keep looping both Kozileks until I could draw two Krosan Grips. (My opponent conceded after a few turns of this, since time was a factor).
I boarded Karakas back in for game 3. We went to turns, with a Kozilek on my side stuck in front of two Bridges again.
T1: Opponent's turn. Eye finds Emrakul at EOT.
T2: Cast Emrakul. Use Map to find Karakas.
T3: Bounce Emrakul, recast Emrakul. Play another Cloudpost.
T4: Bounce Emrakul, cast Emrakul, play another Cloudpost, which brought me to enough mana to also activate Eye for Ulamog.
T5: Cast Ulamog to take out one Bridge, Karakas to bounce him so I could take out the other, swing with Kozilek and Emrakul for the win.
And that was the last time I ever boarded out Karakas.
That's why you play Expedition Maps. Then you almost always have good things to copy.Quote:
Originally Posted by cwcomposer
This is the best thing I have read on the Source in a long time. Congratulation on the Byes and thank you for the nice write up!Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
Why you won't try Phyrexian Tower ? With so many Crop Rotation/Expedition map is best tool to hardcast Titan Turn 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by cwcomposer
So this past week, someone asked my why trickbind over stifle; after I trickbinded a polluted delta. My answer was, beats me, that's what the collective says. I guess it doesn't get countered by chalice of the void set to X=1?
Any insight would be greatful so I don't sound like an idiot the next time someone asks.
I've desperately tried to flip thing in the ice with the ~22 spell build. Thing in the ice's survival rate was approximately 0%. It died countless times to lilianas, swords, terminus, block + bolt, REB.
It doesn't get countered by basically anything. That's most of it. And yes, it doesn't get defeated by Chalice on 1, but more importantly, it also allows you to force spells through that same Chalice. And then you have the occasional corner case where you can time walk a Sneak and Show player who passes priority to you while only activating Sneak once. Stifle effects are a very specific form of interaction, and at the risk of stating the obvious, that type of interaction only works if the spell resolves: it's why, say, a BUG Delver shell plays out a lot differently with Stifles as opposed to without.Quote:
Originally Posted by maCHOOga
It's also just very flexible in general. It's another Wasteland defense. It's an out against Storm. It stops Miracle triggers. It can disrupt a planeswalker. It can completely ruin a tempo deck that keeps a land-light, cantrip-heavy hand. It makes a Batterskull irrelevant. I'm sure you can think of other uses.