Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I was very, very quickly inducted into the opinion that Sorin is unplayable, because I played against it like 4 times at the prerelease and then again in standard a couple days later, and the card literally never did a single goddamn thing. People just kept flipping lands and Duresses and shit off of it and I was like, wow, why the hell would you ever pay 6 mana for that.
Admittedly that changes a bit when you have Top, Library, Volraths, etc to help set it up -- but my initial impressions of the card were highly unfavorable.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I've played two matches against burn since Sorin has been added to my sideboard and he has come down and won me the match two times already :) @Arianrhod, He has wide applications against midrange, control and some aggro. Limited/Standard are creature fests compared to Legacy, probably why he is worse there. I wouldn't run him maindeck though as games tend to go slower post board which is where he shines.
@Navsi, I wouldn't cut Jitte against miracles if you aren't running SoFaI. Having 3 SFM just for a BSK isn't great. Jitte IS still a card that makes your weenies into threats, and it picks off random Snapcasters, Vind Cliques and more importantly Mentors. I don't cut it even when I have SoFaI as well. I wouldn't cut STE against them either... probably cut Vet in its place, you'd rather have the mana then both of you have the mana.
@Navsi/rubblekill, how is the surgical extraction plan working for you against miracles? Do you manage to get the card you want that often? How many do you board in? 3 seems like a hell of a lot...
@rubblekill, why does anguished unmaking get the nod over pulse/vindicate because of JTMS? Is it because you get him before they brainstorm looking for a FoW? It doesn't work with your surgical extraction plan though.. (kill jace, extract him)
@AtticusBlaqk, welcome to the fold! However, I don't think I've seen a sultai podlist in here recently. You are in the right place (because for some reason Nic fit has a thread for all its variants regardless of deck colours..) Gitrog was discussed quite a bit maybe 10+ page ago (just check the dates for spoiler season!) With regards for sultai pod.. Maybe search the thread using the "search thread" function above for "pod" and have a scroll through. I'm sure someone posted something this year haha.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
SFM, Kotr, Teeg... I must have clicked the maverick thread accidentally....
Seriously tho, a lot of positive work going on here and I'll toss my $0.02 in on a few things.
Mainly the deck fairs well against meta.durdley but has issues with miracles and combo.
KotR, nice, tons of interactions available, but really shines with tech lands like wastelands, karakas, etc. (That we don't want to run with VE). Also, with no evasion I don't think it's worth it as a 4x.
SFM, doesn't help significantly against combo and I think has more drawbacks against miracles than positives. First, he's 2cmc, right in line for counterbalance. Second, equipment is inherinetly conditional. Against a deck loaded with removal, especially instant speed in response to equip attempts, why flood the deck? It helps any threat that sticks be more significant, but how does it help a threat stick? And it adds cards that miracles can ignore to the deck (the actual equipment). They have plenty of anti creature hate. Part of the beauty of NIC fit is that jamming 4+ cmc threats isn't something most legacy decks are designed to cope with. SFM just brings the curve down and starts playing "fair" format creatures. How does any creature with a jitte or on batterskull present more of a problem to miracles than say sigarda, siege rhino, baneslayer, etc. None of the equipment even gets in the air to match entreat or get around a goyf (other decks). I just don't think this is the deck for SFM, there are better things to do.
61 cards is bad, this deck or any other deck.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
We are in fact in the middle of an identity crisis nic fit as a whole right now can't decide if its big maverick, tiny turbo eldrazi, super rock, shardlessless shardless, or abzan angel control.... its almost like trying to follow ten recipes to make one soup
Which leads me to my next statement. The exercise in rebuilding from the ground up has shown me one thing very clearly. We started from scratch and ended up in almost exactly the same place. Wardens assement on the core of the deck based on whats been presented mathmatically is essentially where we were before, the only difference is we can see numerically why these cards tested into the slots they have long since been locked into.
Im wondering if maybe we need to take the sylvan plug appoarch and compile a list of cards that each teir deck absolutely dreads playing against and attempt to troll/next level the rest of the metagame by playing a functional mash up of tier one hate.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
uncletiggy
Im wondering if maybe we need to take the sylvan plug appoarch and compile a list of cards that each teir deck absolutely dreads playing against and attempt to troll/next level the rest of the metagame by playing a functional mash up of tier one hate.
Let's make the identity crisis even worse! I like the idea though. Let's do this!
A last thing on KotR (which is now already a couple of pages back, lol) - it never was ment as a replacement of the entire 4 CMC package - it was ment to take up the last free slot that build had (leaving the CMC 4 package intact entirely) and maybe trade in for 1 CMC 4 card. Secondly, running a KotR shouldn't mean we start to tinker with silly lands. The main plan of this deck doesn't need to be diluted. Smashing face with a Goyf-size Knight that also fixes your draws fits the plan, no need to get cute. Trying to also use it for some combo is admitting to The Danger Of Cool Stuff.
You know what, I'm very disappointed in this thread. We come to the conclusion that being more consistent would help the deck quite a great deal, but as soon as we produce a build that is about as consistent as theoretically is possible we start cutting exactly those cards that were added specifically to pad consistency. And the reasoning behind it? "I feel that ...". No testing, no quantification, no particular reasoning, nothing. Just "Meh, less card X is fine".
To take Arianrhod's example concerning Big Sorin: He initially thought "Meh", was willing to try it out and after that concluded that it's a viable option. I would appreciate it if the rest can take the same approach.
@Jain: Thank you for letting me know I wasn't the only one that thought that. Still doesn't justify my response, but that's not the point.
Finishing note on "I don't want to play DRS b/c I tend to blow them up with my own Deeds" and yes, this is directed at you rubble: If you're not willing to blow up your own stuff every now and again, Pernicious Deed is not the card for you. If you find that it "just happens to you" too often, you should really evaluate your playstyle.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
I'd cut myself before I cut Sigarda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
14 threats
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
17 staples/removal
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Painful Truths
1 Sylvan Library
6 Filter and Draw
2 Sorin, Grim Vampire-Person
2 Control Walkers
22 Lands
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
61 total. I'd consider cutting a Heath for another Painful Truths, or Vindicate.
Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons or Garruk Relentless (I feel like Sigarda #2, Tao may disagree, but I'd just want to increase my frequency).
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Tsunami
1 From the Ashes
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pithing Needle
1 Vindicate/Sorin
1 Open (combo hate, likely)
My reasoning is as follows:
Maindeck isn't very different. Whatever. Vindicate could take the place of a Sorin, but whatever works for ya. Safekeeper is something to try to help Rhinos get through the STP.decks. Is it amazing? No, but it is hard to beat. Plus, it games well against Combo with Teeg.
Sideboard is for the following reasons:
Thoughtseize for Combo. Need dat interaction and to give you time. Let's be real - we're slow as fuck.
Teeg for Miracles, Combo, assorted flavours of bullshit. I agree, shutting down GSZ is a pain in the ass, but sometimes, you need him.
Control piece - Sigarda #2 is there for Miracles and the Liliana.deck. She's gameover against all the midrangey bullshit in the format, and does wonders against Miracles. I don't see a second copy as a problem, especially if one gets countered. Could also just be a Relentless, that's for testing to decide. Relentless is far less fragile, but worse against stuff like Jace/Liliana. Sigarda can break you being behind against onboard Jace AND Liliana. Garruk cannot.
Sweep - I foresee a Port reprinting in Eternal Masters, so every person who wanted to get into Legacy might try DnT. Toxic is never bad, and Charm has a little bit more use and a bit faster against, say, Elves. It's two cards to shore up matchups that are probably still favourable, but I'd never want to lose.
Tsunami as the control breaker.
From the Ashes as your trump to Eldrazi. I split this with Tsunami since From the Ashes is only meh against Miracles. Ruination might be better so you have two options, but whatever.
Needles for Jace, Sneak, Grizzle, Batterskull, or whatever. I don't care. Needle good.
Didn't get room for the Vindicate main, so here it is. Could be main instead of a Sorin, we'll see.
Open slot for either combo hate, or a Grip or something.
A little late to seeing this, but could you elaborate on what control walkers you're running/considering?
And also, for the Sigarda slot that you have in your SB, have you thought about running a Titania? Obviously Sigarda is nuts, but in a deck that is running a Sylvan Safekeeper it seems nuts to be able to recur and also protect the 5/3 token generation not to mention that if you have a fetch in hand the turn she comes down she generates 15 power which is certainly something that makes me think of the "going over the top" qualifier being discussed as a goal for the deck.
Thanks for your thoughts! I've been loving this thread
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Unfortunately Titania is a 5 mana card that dies from Lightning Bolt and is bad at blocking. Also doesn't play well with our own Deeds.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I agree the boltability is a drawback, but I was referring to her being in the SB in Matt's slot for Sigarda #2. Obviously you wouldn't bring Titania in for a MU where you might see bolts, but I think she would also do well against the "midrangey bullshit" Matt mentions and assuming you play her in a fashion like Tracker, you don't play her unless you can get value so at the worst if she does get Swords'd, you still get at least one token that can block a middle sized goyf profitably and at the best, kindof like Tracker, if left unchecked demands an answer pretty quickly. I agree that deed is awkward, but again as with Tracker, ideally you can sequence things so that the nonbo doesn't come up or even if so, that you get some swings in for free as you might cash in some but not all clues. The nice thing with deed on Titania too is that we are highly unlikely to deed for 5+ generally speaking so if she survives even a turn after a board wipe, fetchland topdecks are insane and put the pressure right back on. Lastly, and I know this is a niche case, she has inherent recursion(/ramp technically) if you have 6 lands including a karakas - every turn you can bounce/replay to grab a fetchland (ostensibly in our GY by that stage of the game) and generate a token. You can also bounce her to your hand in response to a Terminus and then if the next turn you brick or don't have other action in hand, you can start playing/bouncing her again. Just a thought - I like Titania but have not played her since I started playing junk nic fit from other variants and have been thinking about trying her out again.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emesyu
A little late to seeing this, but could you elaborate on what control walkers you're running/considering?
You misread his post, he talks about the two Sorins right above there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AtticusBlaqk
Is the Gitrog Monster a considerable 5 drop Pod Target in Nic Fit? If this has been discussed already, can someone direct me to the right page range?
I would say no. Pod creatures should have an EtB / LtB effect unless you plan to end your curve at 5. But really with Pod you should go up to 6 to get to a Titan and then a 5-drop like Tusk or Shriekmaw seems better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emesyu
I agree the boltability is a drawback, but I was referring to her being in the SB in Matt's slot for Sigarda #2. Obviously you wouldn't bring Titania in for a MU where you might see bolts, but I think she would also do well against the "midrangey bullshit" Matt mentions and assuming you play her in a fashion like Tracker, you don't play her unless you can get value so at the worst if she does get Swords'd, you still get at least one token that can block a middle sized goyf profitably and at the best, kindof like Tracker, if left unchecked demands an answer pretty quickly.
That makes a lot of sense if your version needs another big drop, could be tried. Also in general I need to try this Sylvan Safekeeper tech, I dismissed it too quickly.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Simple - Titania requires shenanigans and more specific circumstances to be really good, Sigarda just says "Turn me sideways 4 times and you're done", no strings attached and has a form of evasion, on top of blanking 90% of all removal known to man.
Opponents also tend to bring in GY hate vs. us, so it isn't necessarily safe to assume we have lands to recur.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
uncletiggy
We are in fact in the middle of an identity crisis nic fit as a whole right now can't decide if its big maverick, tiny turbo eldrazi, super rock, shardlessless shardless, or abzan angel control.... its almost like trying to follow ten recipes to make one soup
Which leads me to my next statement. The exercise in rebuilding from the ground up has shown me one thing very clearly. We started from scratch and ended up in almost exactly the same place. Wardens assement on the core of the deck based on whats been presented mathmatically is essentially where we were before, the only difference is we can see numerically why these cards tested into the slots they have long since been locked into.
Im wondering if maybe we need to take the sylvan plug appoarch and compile a list of cards that each teir deck absolutely dreads playing against and attempt to troll/next level the rest of the metagame by playing a functional mash up of tier one hate.
I think there's a lot of merit to this, though. Yes, we took a bunch of time and effort and didn't really end up very different from where we were (maybe a couple cards at most). But showing that there is validation for where we ended up is important, as is (even more so) now we know the slots to look for as we tune and build new lists. Now we can definitively say, no, we CAN'T cut this 1-of Sylvan Library for another Path to Exile, because then our interaction vs filtration ratios will be off. There is power in that. Sure, we can still have our "identity crisis" as you say -- some people prefer to play the deck one way, some another. But at the end of the day, the bones of each list still boil down into the same primordial soup. As long as we're careful to stick to that core goop, we'll be fine regardless of what pretty dresses we put it in.
As for a haterade approach, I mean, that's certainly something that people can work on. I'd probably recommend starting it with Armageddon -- no tier deck right now likes being geddoned, ESPECIALLY miracles and lands, which are two of the tougher matchups. The trick is that -we- don't like being geddoned very much either, but I'd imagine you could work on that somehow...Crucible of Worlds, Sun Titan, etc.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
You misread his post, he talks about the two Sorins right above there.
I would say no. Pod creatures should have an EtB / LtB effect unless you plan to end your curve at 5. But really with Pod you should go up to 6 to get to a Titan and then a 5-drop like Tusk or Shriekmaw seems better.
That makes a lot of sense if your version needs another big drop, could be tried. Also in general I need to try this Sylvan Safekeeper tech, I dismissed it too quickly.
I'll answer more questions tomorrow, but recall that most of the time when you GSZ for 1 with a duder in play, they just assume you're going for Deathrite. By the time Safekeeper is in play, they're holding their genitalia in their hand as opposed to the STP.
I think Titania could also be fine over Sigarda #2, yes.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Hi everyone!
Wow! This thread moves really fast.
I'm reading Nic Fit thread almost since the page 200 from the old one.
I totally agree with luklinda.
This is not a deck for creatures with cmc 3 or less, with a few exceptions such as single deathrite, ooze, eternalw,... One of the biggest assets of Nic Fit a part of sinergy between vet+ct is: pernicious deed. I think that removing deed is not the solution.
Our plan is that deed would be on side effect and this is only possible with permanents +3 cmc (in first thread Arianrhood indicated the reasons of not run sylvan library because of this).
All the equipments, deathrites, germ token, clues, sfm, kotr... die to our deed. How you are going to deal with TNN? Blowing your own board?
Some white list only contain 2 path to exile. Well, I thought that the reason of being in white was able to deal with biggest creatures at instant speed (something that is harder to do in red) - looking at you Marit Lage token (or griselbrand, angler) 3 main deck and 1 sb maybe are more correct numbers.
If there are white lists that run taiga for slaughter games in sideboard, why not run a single savannah or plateu in red lists for siege rhino maindeck? Red need to find how to close games faster, unless you go to scapeshift versions.
Sorry for my english, is not my native language.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
You misread his post, he talks about the two Sorins right above there.
Ah, I see my mistake now. Still, I know there's a lot of hype about the new Sorin but has anyone tried running 1 Sorin GN and 1 Sorin Lord of Innistrad or something like that? Liliana is probably the better pick, but I'm curious about the planeswalker direction and am interested in people's choices/experiences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
Simple - Titania requires shenanigans and more specific circumstances to be really good, Sigarda just says "Turn me sideways 4 times and you're done", no strings attached and has a form of evasion, on top of blanking 90% of all removal known to man.
Opponents also tend to bring in GY hate vs. us, so it isn't necessarily safe to assume we have lands to recur.
I agree Titania is less all-in-one, but I think the way you dismiss Titania is a little blithe. Of course Sigarda is insane, but that's why she's MB and Titania is not. Titania can present a faster clock than Sigarda and has the angle of going wide which could mean being able to leave blocks up and still put on pressure when at low life total or get around something like an Emrakul. I have also been in the situation vs a very aggressive opening from an Eldrazi deck (T1 Eye of Ugin into two Mimics, T2 Ancient Tomb into a TKS, swing for 8, etc) which I was able to stabilize and get a Sigarda in play midgame, but which I had to trade to a Reality Smasher being that I was on 4 and it has haste/trample/is such a beating. I don't remember the game well enough to know if Titania would have been an "out" because it was a pretty nut draw from my opponent, but my point is mostly Devil's Advocating for Titania. Do I think that Sigarda #2 SB is "wrong"? Absolutely not, but do I think that there are (especially more creature heavy) matchups that it might do well in? I definitely have that feeling and was hoping to invite people to weigh in or even test it in the wild. Post board games seem to get grindier too, where an engine type setup like Titania gains cumulative advantage over the course of more turns.
You have a great point about GY hate though, that is certainly a drawback. Perhaps Titania is a better choice in something of a package with a KotR as a small version of what Warden outlined last page, or even requires such a commitment.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sergi
All the equipments, deathrites, germ token, clues, sfm, kotr... die to our deed. How you are going to deal with TNN? Blowing your own board?
Some white list only contain 2 path to exile. Well, I thought that the reason of being in white was able to deal with biggest creatures at instant speed (something that is harder to do in red) - looking at you Marit Lage token (or griselbrand, angler) 3 main deck and 1 sb maybe are more correct numbers.
If the alternative is dying, yes. It's also one of the reasons Golgari Charm is a common SB card.
PtE/AD is a metagame choice. And people tend to cling to AD as a catch-all answer.
Concerning Titania: She lets you run the risk of falling for The Danger Of Cool Things. Can she be beyond awesome? Yes. Can she fall incredibly short? Absolutely. Don't get me wrong, my inner Timmy screams "YEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHHHH" whenever I see Titania. It's just that Timmy doesn't live alone anymore.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
If the alternative is dying, yes. It's also one of the reasons Golgari Charm is a common SB card.
PtE/AD is a metagame choice. And people tend to cling to AD as a catch-all answer.
If the opponent is playing TNN you can expect some interaction with your spells, and some of them countered. So relying only in sidebord cards that cannot deal with equipped creatures seems few options. Note that I also run golgari charm sideboard.
Regarding AD, do not have same applications as PtE. Show and tell, grixis, reanimator are tipical decks in my metagme.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sergi
If the opponent is playing TNN you can expect some interaction with your spells, and some of them countered. So relying only in sidebord cards that cannot deal with equipped creatures seems few options. Note that I also run golgari charm sideboard.
Regarding AD, do not have same applications as PtE. Show and tell, grixis, reanimator are tipical decks in my metagme.
You have Cabal Therapy to deal with that or just overload their interaction. Otherwise just drop Siege Rhinos and ignore that bastard. It's what we do.
As far as PtE is concerned you're preaching to the choir, sister.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Warden
This is the drawing board I'm at. I've read over all the more recent comments. I've also revisited some older ideas.
Please do not treat this like the definitive list/setup. It's an amalgamation of everyone's contributions.
====
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
/22 lands (2 utility + 12 mana + 8 fetch)
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Decay
3 Path / Decay / Pulse / Toxic / Vind
/12 interaction
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
/16 core choices
=== If we stop here, we're at a widely agreed-upon list of 50 cards. 20 of these 50 mitigate variance. I'm aiming for coming close to 30/60 "consistency" choices. Below is where we all are meandering.
5-card lands-matter package:
-3 Knight of the Reliquary
-1 Primetime
-2 Dark Depths + Thespian Stage
**I'm assuming you'd replace 1 of the above 22 lands with 1 of the DD/Stage combo lands. this brings you up to 23 lands in total. Although 6 cards are listed in the package, it is functionally 5 cards.
5-card SFM package:
-3 SFM
-2 equipment
5-card beatdown package:
-4 ass-kickers (Rhino, Baneslayer, Meren, Thrun)
-1 additional interaction
Misc options
-Poppa Sorin, Liliana of the Veil, Garruk Relentless, Qasali/Rec Sage, additional interaction/removal
-Scooze, Teeg, Sword of X/Y
-Gitrog Monster, Titania, Loam, Crop rotation, Safekeeper, Courser, Nissa
-Truths, Tracker, Intent, Sidisi, Witness #2
-Spikes/Thune combo
*These all plug and play into any of the above packages. Some cards compliment packages better than others.
I really like the approach of having these core-cards, and then a few possible ways to change the deck beyond that into some different versions. If we take the three types KotR, Sfm, and Beatdown, how would you guys rate those three in the various matchups? Are there big differences in some of them? (I'm mostly interested in Miracles, Storm, Stoneblade, Jund, Shardless, and Lands. The delver matchups should still be highly favorable in all three types)
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
Concerning Titania: She lets you run the risk of falling for The Danger Of Cool Things. Can she be beyond awesome? Yes. Can she fall incredibly short? Absolutely. Don't get me wrong, my inner Timmy screams "YEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHHHH" whenever I see Titania. It's just that Timmy doesn't live alone anymore.
Hahahaha now this is something I can relate to - like many, I have certainly been governed by the Rule of Cool before. Thanks for the conversation, though. For now or at least while I'm trying this Sylvan Safekeeper tech, I think she will have a slot in my SB and I'll try to let you guys know about any aforementioned shenanigans that may occur
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
@helvetios: They all try to win via slow creature packages. Not to be a dick, but how do you expect that to change the outcome of any MU..? And most importantly those we have trouble with?
Consider why we have problems with certain MUs: They are either so fast we're dead before we get to kick them in the nuts and we lack the means to consistently stop them or they can deal with any and all of our threats for a single mana. They're also more consistent than we are so we are less likely to get the cards that do matter in that particular MU than they are. Do those packages improve on any of that? No. Therefor, will they improve the MUs we need to improve? No.
This also applies to lowering the number of Tops we play by the way, since they actually do help us find the cards that do matter more often and it is in our bad MUs that we need them most. Vs. ANT/TES you're normally dead before it matters you drew into a second Top and the Miracles MU usually takes so long you'll get to the point where you easily shuffle away those extra Tops. Or cast them into a Counterbalance to test if there's a 1 on top.
