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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mad Mat
The risk is not that high. D&T plays only 3 karakas. And Karakas only really ruins the show and ape game if they drop Emrakul.
It depends on the amount of mana they start out with and how sustainable it is. If their hand is quite vulnerable to mana denial, they're much more likely to go off and hope the opponent does not have karakas. Karakas doesn't ruin the game that much for them if they can drop Griselbrand, too, as they still get to draw a bunch of cards and you're a turn behind.
But, most importantly, I think it's a very fair bet that a turn 1 Omniscience is very unlikely to be beatable by a LRW. Your clock is still quite slow and you've given them many more outs to still resolve that omniscience.
So I'd say Jailer is the best call overall. It ruins a fast Emrakul if you don't have Karakas and it's probably the best thing to drop against Griselbrand next to revoker, drawing you a minimum of two extra cards. Revoker stops their card advantage, but requires you to still deal with a 7/7 flying lifelinker.
Karakas is one of the key cards against SnS, so a DnT player is more likely to keep a hand that contains one, which means that despite only being a 3-of, it's more likely to be in our G2/G3 keep. It's generally right for them to play around it rather than make a high variance play that loses on the spot half the time. G1 they often don't have a choice and have to play more recklessly (but the chances we'll have a Karakas is lower, because we didn't know we were playing vs SnS).
SnT -> Omni is entirely beatable by LRW and I do it all the time. Sometimes they win with the trigger on the stack, so Ethersworn is still the best option if you've got it, but Relic-Warder is still 2nd best in a vacuum. SnS players almost never just throw Emrakul out there like that anymore - and that's precisely why the match-up got much worse for us.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
I put in the Relic-Warder 100% of the time in that situation, I don't think it's even a close call. If they know they're playing against DnT, SnS players are rarely gonna go for a high risk line that straight up loses to Karakas like putting in Emrakul. And if it's Griselbrand, PJ is better, but you're not even certain to win if they draw a decent 14.
DnT's clock is slow enough that SnS can just durdle for a few turns until they set up the Snt->Omni or a Sneak, and that's their post-board game plan. We all can agree that SnS players are the lowest form of human life, but you still have to give them enough credit to assume they'll make somewhat rational decisions, and losing to Karakas for no reason isn't one.
Well, I disagree with that. Trying to understand your reply I think you're basing your play in:
1 - The final result anticipated by AntiquatedNotion. I don't think that affects the play you take, sometimes you make the play you should and still losing, this is MTG and sometimes 1 + 1 != 2 here.
2 - The thoughts your opponent can be related with, or maybe not and he has another experiences in playtesting. That's subjective and fortunately not every Sneak & Show player is JPA.
I'd base my thoughts on pure statistics here. Let's say that sometimes you've to gamble while playing a combo deck and the risk is not that high in this case. You, as Sneak & Show player, are facing a deck that cannot manipulate his library to find one of the 3 cards he needs to see in 9 cards once the big buddy has touched the board.
Let's analize each scenario and see what would happen:
A - Show and Tell -> Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. I think this option is the least likely because obviously is the worst in paper. Playing Leonin Relic-Warder your only out there is to see Karakas in the top 2 cards of your library. Jamming Palace Jailer you're still on the game and you're ahead cause the CA, the pressure going for free and having disruption in hand already with which he has to deal immediately.
B - Show and Tell -> Griselbrand. If I play Leonin Relic-Warder I'm in a spot pretty similar as the previous one, even worse because not necessarily he's gonna give me 2 draw steps to find Karakas. If I go for Palace Jailer it's gonna depend to what he does. If he draws 7 cards in response to trigger I still being fighting there and I'll be probably ahead as well because maybe those 7 cards are not enough to recover the disadvantage generated by going off so early for "nothing" and he would have lost 9 life + 2 from Palace Jailer swinging and having to deal with rough cards. If he activates Griselbrand twice he've just lost: 14 from Griselbrand + 2 from Ancient Tomb + 2 from Palace Jailer. You can neither activate Ancient Tomb next turn neither combine Force of Will on Thalia, Guardian of Thraben + fetch. And if you let that Thalia, Guardian of Thraben resolve you've lost anyway.
C - Show and Tell -> Omniscience. Here another card should be entering in the operation for him to do something relevant. That's not an easy thing given that he has just seen 8 cards and have 4 cards to start that have hurt, is not that easy that he has the fifth to close the game but I should evaluate that to take a decission. If I play Leonin Relic-Warder I'll keep playing if his extra card is not a Cunning Wish (if he's running that version) or if he just has not gas to follow that play. If Leonin Relic-Warder leaves the play at some point I'll be out anyway and the game is gonna go longer... Otherwise playing Palace Jailer I lose in the scenario given by AntiquatedNotion and if he has nothing to follow it up I'd try to play Leonin Relic-Warder in my turn and hope he didn't have countermagic.
D - Show and Tell -> Sneak Attack. Pretty bad option as well and unlikely if he has not played another Lotus Petal or cannot activate it that turn, because he can eat more of our cards and he would give us the oportunity to untap for it. Pretty weird line.
In addition to that, it could depend on the version as I said. One tipically runs 4 of each buddies + 2 Omniscience maindeck and the other has 3x of every one. But I think I'd take the same play anyway because statistics still being in my favor.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
I put in the Relic-Warder 100% of the time in that situation, I don't think it's even a close call. If they know they're playing against DnT, SnS players are rarely gonna go for a high risk line that straight up loses to Karakas like putting in Emrakul. And if it's Griselbrand, PJ is better, but you're not even certain to win if they draw a decent 14.
DnT's clock is slow enough that SnS can just durdle for a few turns until they set up the Snt->Omni or a Sneak, and that's their post-board game plan. We all can agree that SnS players are the lowest form of human life, but you still have to give them enough credit to assume they'll make somewhat rational decisions, and losing to Karakas for no reason isn't one.
Blind in that situation, the odds are roughly even if it's an enchantment or a creature, assuming they play 2 Omni, 4 Sneak, and 3 of each Griselbrand and Emrakul. I'm less sure of your play than I was earlier, because an enchantment just beats you while a creature can potentially be stopped if you topdeck Karakas. Then again, if you had reason to suspect they had fewer Sneak Attacks, I definitely would support your call.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
redtwister
Far more interesting: ZERO Ethersworn Canonist.
@everyone
Any feels on Cataclysm vs. Gideon in the Grixis Control match?
The absence of Canonist is partially compensated for by Chalice.
Cataclysm is far superior to Gideon in almost any control matchup, Grixis included. However, I prefer Gideon right now to its flexibility, notably its ability to mitigate Dread of Night. Once some of these unhealthy trends pass, I will go back to Cataclysm.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
SnT -> Omni is entirely beatable by LRW and I do it all the time. Sometimes they win with the trigger on the stack, so Ethersworn is still the best option if you've got it, but Relic-Warder is still 2nd best in a vacuum. SnS players almost never just throw Emrakul out there like that anymore - and that's precisely why the match-up got much worse for us.
I didn't say omni wasn't beatable by LRW. I said it was unlikely to be in the first turn. My train of thought is: turn 1 show and tell? I expect Emrakul or Griselbrand. Because I know I won't be able to beat omniscience. Ethersworn and LRW are terrific at ruining the late game for value show and tell into omniscience, because by then you'll have reduced their life total and resources somewhat. But if you drop them turn 1, they're not very likely to amount to much. You are turns away from being even threatening and they only need to find one piece of removal or another combo to win. The odds that they're gambling on you not having karakas or their griselbrand drawing them the win are much greater.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
DnT's clock is slow enough that SnS can just durdle for a few turns until they set up the Snt->Omni or a Sneak, and that's their post-board game plan. We all can agree that SnS players are the lowest form of human life, but you still have to give them enough credit to assume they'll make somewhat rational decisions, and losing to Karakas for no reason isn't one.
LOL! There's no hope for me now (I'm a dedicated SnT player while son is a dedicated DnT player.
Could I just clarify that we lowlifes tend to play with two versions:
- 2 omniscience in MB (no cunning wish / intuition version)
- 3 omniscience in the MB (cunning wish / intuition version)
In addition, is GY decks on the decline due to the meta (e.g. Death's shadow) or is the meta's sideboard still GY unfriendly? Because I've seen some games where son plays karakas T1, pass turn (not only to me obviously)
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rostov
LOL! There's no hope for me now (I'm a dedicated SnT player while son is a dedicated DnT player.
I think you kinda redeem yourself by having a DnT player kid. Even though there's no hope for you, the next generation is fighting the good fight. It's like a Luke Skywalker / Darth Vader thing.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
When I talked to AntiquatedNotion at the event (before he told me what his opponent put in), my line was also LRW.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AntiquatedNotion
and there's 8 of those against 2-3 Omniscience.
I think P(Your opponent has the nuts with Omniscience or just wants to draw 7-14 with Griselbrand | He goes yolo on turn 1) > P(Your opponent is an idiot who wants to lose to Karakas, Disenchant variant or Revoker by putting in Emrakul or Sneak Attack | He goes yolo on turn 1). You can't do anything about Griselbrand drawing cards given you didn't have a Revoker in hand, Emrakul and Sneak Attack are both horrible plays and all other things being equal you shouldn't assume your opponent is an idiot, so I'd just play around the worst case scenario, which his all-in approach makes subjectively more likely.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
That's IT I AM DONE WITH BALEFUL STRIX, DONE
Sleeving 2 Karma
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
The Play-Around-Karakas? thing got me thinking about something interesting that I've internalized but never seen explicitly written about.
So the raw probability of a Karakas being in a 7 card opening hand is 31%. If they tossed in an Emrakul, we could eat one attack, so we'd have two draws, which ups the chances of a Karakas appearing to 39%. That means that if robots were playing our cards for us and couldn't mulligan, turn 1 Emrakul is always a correct play, and 60% of the time we lose to the second stupidest creature ever printed. (Let's forget about the out of SnT in land + cast turn 2 Council's Judgment, that actually came up for me once.)
But let's say we have a strategy - as a DnT player, we always, 100% of the time, mull to Karakas. We're a new player, all we know about how to play the matchup is 'get Karakas' and that's what we're going to do. We draw 7 cards and we keep. From the opponent's perspective, what are the chances that there's a Karakas in our hand now? It's not 31%, it's 100%. If our opponent knows we mull to Karakas, now tossing in Emrakul will be a terrible play 100% of the time rather than 39%.
Related example: I used to play Dredge in Modern and the most effective SB card is obviously Leyline. When my opponent would keep 7 card hands and I knew they were on a Leyline deck, I'd mull an explosive hand to look for a disenchant effect. If they mulled to 6 (they're obviously on the play g2) I'd be more likely to keep a great hand without a disenchant effect and hope they'd mull to oblivion or end up with a 4 card Leyline hand that could be beat with hardcast Prized Amalgams.
Leylines are an example of the most straight-forward 'mull to this card' strategy. DnT players don't actually mull to Karakas, and everyone here would keep 'Vial, Thalia, C Priest, Wasteland, Recruiter, Port, Plains' even though it loses to turn 1 Emrakul. But the card is still one of the very best cards to have in the matchup, and will bias our keep and mulligans, we're more likely to keep okay 7s that have a Karakas and more likely to keep bad 6s because they have a Karakas.
This is why opponents always feel like DnT players have Vial and Chalice players have Chalice - not that everyone mulls to those cards in every spot, but you're more likely to keep bad hands with one, or mull a mediocre hand without one, which effectively ups the chances of it appearing from above the natural 40%. And from your opponent's POV, the chances of those cards being in your opening 7 should be greater than 40% precisely because you kept. You can't put an actual number on that because it depends on the player, but based on how some people play Chalice decks vs Blue decks it actually might approach 100%.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I finally found some time to play Legacy again today, and decided to run D&T. I was paired against Grixis Control (2-0), ANT (1-2), UW Miracles (2-0) and Ug OmniShow (2-0). My list is kinda whacky anyway, so I decided to run a singleton Mangara of Corondor in my mainboard (for nostalgia, and over a singleton Orzhov Pontiff, since I haven't felt pestered by True-Name Nemesis that much any more lately), and what can I say... it was f*cking bonkers :D I snatched a Gurmag Angler, Bitterblossom and at least 3 lands from the Grixis player, the last two permanents the Miracles player had in game two (both basic lands), and a Sylvan Library from the Omnisneak player. Also, Sanctum Prelate. People still underestimate this card, I think - I have three copies post-board, and it does so much if you, er, play your cards right. I'm still on three Cavern of Souls, and I feel this card has upped Mangara's power considerably in absence of Aether Vials and a slow-ish meta.
Also funny: My sole game win versus ANT was powered by Shalai, Voice of Plenty from an Aether Vial @ 4 in response to opp's Tendrils of Agony. (My blind keep game one proved shitty against Storm, and in G3, he was just too fast for our archetype.) Good times! :)
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Despite the fact that storm-based combos are less prevailing, what are your thoughts for SB:
Ethersworn Canonist vs. Chalice of the Void ?
Has anyone tested extensively with Chalice to provide a sound answer or position?
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tylert
So finally Brightling is a flop? :)
So it would seem. Got around to picking one up. All the top 8 decka drop the card.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tormod
So it would seem. Got around to picking one up. All the top 8 decka drop the card.
This has already been addressed. Not a flop, but rather our beaters change with the tides of the meta. With all the Bx lists running around, Mirran is the obvious winner for the slot. If miracles becomes the top list, Brightling reclaims the slot.
Really not a difficult concept unless you are used to thinking like a standard player.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I'm having a hard time justifying playing Batterskull after Assassin's Trophy goes live. It was always very meh vs Miracles, swings on turn 4 at the earliest vs combo and if BUG goodstuff becomes The Fair Deck to replace Grixis Control the card won't basically ever do anything. Replace with Darksteel Plate? Indestructible Flickerwisp, take that Strix.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jolssoni
I'm having a hard time justifying playing Batterskull after Assassin's Trophy goes live. It was always very meh vs Miracles, swings on turn 4 at the earliest vs combo and if BUG goodstuff becomes The Fair Deck to replace Grixis Control the card won't basically ever do anything. Replace with Darksteel Plate? Indestructible Flickerwisp, take that Strix.
Interesting ideas. Certainly batterskull being clunky can be very frustrating. However, Grixis already had kcommand as an answer right? But we’ve still played batterskull against it and in the format, because when it goes unanswered it’s quite potent. I’ve always liked it myself against miracles cause I viewed it as the second best flickerwisp target. Nothing is better following terminus than an instant speed 3/1 and 4/4 imo. I certainly would be one to agree it’s poor vs combo, though the stone gorge package as a whole is quite poor against most combo decks. All in all I still think it’ll be quite good and we will see an even greater uptick in crusader, but I also see where you’re coming from.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Marungo
Interesting ideas. Certainly batterskull being clunky can be very frustrating. However, Grixis already had kcommand as an answer right? But we’ve still played batterskull against it and in the format, because when it goes unanswered it’s quite potent. I’ve always liked it myself against miracles cause I viewed it as the second best flickerwisp target. Nothing is better following terminus than an instant speed 3/1 and 4/4 imo. I certainly would be one to agree it’s poor vs combo, though the stone gorge package as a whole is quite poor against most combo decks. All in all I still think it’ll be quite good and we will see an even greater uptick in crusader, but I also see where you’re coming from.
It's very likely that I'm still just in the "wtf they actually printed this omg"-phase. Without DRS around you can more likely keep your opponent off their mana for K-command whereas Ass Trophy just costs two, although it does give you land and fetching the Batterskull was still card advantage even if you lost quite a bit of tempo. Maybe it's not as bad as I think :really: O̶n̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶I̶ ̶f̶e̶e̶l̶ ̶p̶r̶e̶t̶t̶y̶ ̶c̶e̶r̶t̶a̶i̶n̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶T̶u̶r̶b̶o̶ ̶D̶e̶p̶t̶h̶s̶ ̶b̶e̶c̶o̶m̶e̶s̶ ̶c̶l̶o̶s̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶u̶n̶p̶l̶a̶y̶a̶b̶l̶e̶.̶ EDIT: Trophy might just help Depths more than hinder, playing against the card sucks but getting something that helps vs Lands/Aggro Loam/Jace is a nice plus.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Assassin's Trophy doesn't impact D&T much, I guess - they can hit 4CMC creatures and lands with this, but everything else was dead to Abrupt Decay already anway. I see the stock of Mirran Crusader (and critters that have resistance to "destroy" effects built in, or that have pro-black) going up, but that's about it. A hassle, sure - but with D&T's virtually endless stream of basic Plains, nothing to be too worried about.
Bounty Agent is garbage.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Trophy is a bit weird for Legacy, albeit the card is incredibly powerful just on what it does for two mana at instant speed. However, it doesn't improve the combo match for Jund or make up for no DRS, and Junk isn't a deck. This isn't Modern where this card is going to singlehandedly return Jund to Tier 1 (wrecks Tron maindeck, kills Planeswalkers like a boss, kills every creature). It might help Jund with Lands, but I'm not sure it solves problems for decks in Legacy like it does in Modern.
What decks does it help?
BG dark Depths might be the biggest winner. After that...? BUG Delver? NicFit? What other BGx decks really want this?
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I could see BUG good-stuff gaining an equal footing to Grixis Control.
The new Goblin card is very good against us, maybe even worth trying in RW builds. That's a very pushed card.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jolssoni
One thing I feel pretty certain of is that Turbo Depths becomes close to unplayable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
redtwister
BG dark Depths might be the biggest winner.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
redtwister
Trophy is a bit weird for Legacy, albeit the card is incredibly powerful just on what it does for two mana at instant speed. However, it doesn't improve the combo match for Jund or make up for no DRS, and Junk isn't a deck. This isn't Modern where this card is going to singlehandedly return Jund to Tier 1 (wrecks Tron maindeck, kills Planeswalkers like a boss, kills every creature). It might help Jund with Lands, but I'm not sure it solves problems for decks in Legacy like it does in Modern.
What decks does it help?
BG dark Depths might be the biggest winner. After that...? BUG Delver? NicFit? What other BGx decks really want this?
Elves got a lot better as a card to deal with lands and planswalkers is a big deal for them, and kill spell are generally not a great angle of attack against combo, but this one can snag an LED and non-emrakul target holding a lot more value than say fatal push. Basics arent as played in leg so this is just additional stonerains for delver decks, pretty versatile imo.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
filln
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That's funny, I missed that. I just think, even if it hurts them, it won't see enough play outside of 1-2 decks to make them much worse, while giving them more interaction with Reanimator and Sneak and Show.
Yeah, Elves likes it. I just keep wondering if it takes decks that were really hit by the loss of DRS and makes them viable. For example, a creature combo deck probably doesn't recover from the loss of a key creature by switching its cmc 2 removal from one card to another. I could be wrong, but it doesn't feel like it. Give DnT a two mana instant Council's Judgment and that is a whole different animal.
BUG certainly won't be worse for having it and it might be more viable. It's not K-Command ("merely" 2-for-1 of discard/2 damage/destroy artifact/creature buy back), but that unconditional permanent destruction for a possible basic land is pretty tight. It certainly feels more relevant in BUG Control/Good Stuff.
I just don't see it making a big splash in Legacy, nowhere the impact it is likely to have in Modern.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
redtwister
That's funny, I missed that. I just think, even if it hurts them, it won't see enough play outside of 1-2 decks to make them much worse, while giving them more interaction with Reanimator and Sneak and Show.
Yeah, Elves likes it. I just keep wondering if it takes decks that were really hit by the loss of DRS and makes them viable. For example, a creature combo deck probably doesn't recover from the loss of a key creature by switching its cmc 2 removal from one card to another. I could be wrong, but it doesn't feel like it. Give DnT a two mana instant Council's Judgment and that is a whole different animal.
BUG certainly won't be worse for having it and it might be more viable. It's not K-Command ("merely" 2-for-1 of discard/2 damage/destroy artifact/creature buy back), but that unconditional permanent destruction for a possible basic land is pretty tight. It certainly feels more relevant in BUG Control/Good Stuff.
I just don't see it making a big splash in Legacy, nowhere the impact it is likely to have in Modern.
I think the decks that typically want Trophy are decks that fold to Jace. These are typically non-blue midrange decks. Blue decks still have Force game 1 so they don't necessarily fold to Jace. This is the hoop Trophy needs to jump through as the current metagame has few viable BGx decks. It's possible BUG makes a comeback due to Trophy, but I don't think it'll be as good as Grixis Control and it'll be a bit too slow to deal with Miracles. Maybe BUG becomes viable if they can figure out a way to play 4x Snapcaster.
I'm hoping Trophy makes non-blue fair decks more viable, but I don't think it's the card that brings back Punishing Jund or Junk Stoneblade. The metagame is so pushed towards UBx, Miracles, and combo WotC will have to make some absurdly targeted printings to ensure more color combinations are viable in the format.
The decks that really want this are Elves, Maverick, Aggro Loam (Decay is still pretty important, I think there'll be a split between the two), and Junk Nic Fit.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
It's fun to have a BGx discussion on a D&T thread :cool:
BUG lists don't have problem in fitting in 3-4 snapcasters. This definetely doesn't mean troubles against Miracle.
But I agree that
1) maverick is probably the happier
2) Grixis still has kolaghan
3) deathrite loss would always be relevant, unless they print a nerfed version that is at least playable :tongue:
4) I would fear D&T even more because it could mean that BUG plays more 2cmc removals and that would mean MoR t1 becomes even more problematic. Also you can simply adjust with more Crusaders and because of this I easily see myself upping the anti-white sideboard slots (usual splits between dread of nights, toxic deluges, golgari charms and lilianas. The biggest problem remaining crusader)
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
My locals are heavily Grixis Control (2-3 players) and UWx Control (3-5 players), which feels like I am going to have a sub 40% win percentage between the two. Even with Cataclysm (I am running two), it feels super tough beating these two. FWIW, I have been working to play carefully, not overextend, hold cards until I can establish a difficult situation for them and even with then, unless I start with a perfect hand, I am 3-11 in games and 1-5 in matches overall.
Any suggestions? Anyone not having issues with these two decks?
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
redtwister
My locals are heavily Grixis Control (2-3 players) and UWx Control (3-5 players), which feels like I am going to have a sub 40% win percentage between the two. Even with Cataclysm (I am running two), it feels super tough beating these two. FWIW, I have been working to play carefully, not overextend, hold cards until I can establish a difficult situation for them and even with then, unless I start with a perfect hand, I am 3-11 in games and 1-5 in matches overall.
Any suggestions? Anyone not having issues with these two decks?
I don't think Cataclysm is that good anymore. I tried out 2 before Richmond and it was always the worst card in my board. It requires way too much setup and when your opponent is playing STP/Disenchant - Snap - STP/Disenchant or Command - Snap - Command it's difficult to ever have a creature, equipment, or Vial stick for that long. It was so bad that I lost to Cataclysm more than my opponents.
I went back to two Gideon in place of Cataclysm. I've upped my Council's Judgment count to three, which is something I've been extremely happy with. Now, I manage to see at least one every time I bring in all three and we do bring in all three against Miracles and Grixis. I also bring in Walking Ballista since it can shoot down stupid Monastery Mentor, Strix, and planeswalkers.
These matchups are still not that good even with the changes I made, but they don't feel as lose-able.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I'm really new to DnT, but I decided to brew anyways, because I love to do it. I think I found something that would work well for our rough matchups. Splashing black gives us Dark Confidant for grindy/value matchups, Thoughtseize against combo, and Orzhov Pontiff against Baleful Strix, True Name Nemesis, and the mirror. I'm thinking 2 Confidant and 1 Pontiff main, with 2 Confidant and 4 Thoughtseize in the sideboard. While I'm loath to go low on basics, the gains are enormous. Thoughts?
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mirrislegend
Splashing black gives us Dark Confidant for grindy/value matchups, Thoughtseize against combo, and Orzhov Pontiff against Baleful Strix, True Name Nemesis, and the mirror.
If you skip Thoughtseize, you can do that with the (generally accepted to be slightly outdated, but I still run it to great success locally) 3 Cavern of Souls, Humans-heavy build. However, the problem with splashing is usually not what to bring in, but what to remove from your 60.
Ad Cataclysm: It's hard to turn a profit from this card if you opponent is fully prepared. There are a few scenarios that make it easier on D&T, though - we play important lands, creatures, and artifacts (artifact creatures can be chosen for both types), and we usually don't have any Planeswalkers around. Sometimes, of course, it's the right call to just nuke everything even if you don't trade excessively (but still mildly) in your favour. If you ever find yourself casting this card (without knowing this is a desperate, last resort kind of measure to buy another turn or so) and then losing, this is a very clear indication that you probably did something wrong when executing this plan, or its setup.
@redtwister: with the aforementioned Caverns build, Miracles is rather easy, unless your opponent is masterfully playing their deck. I recommend Mangara of Corondor as a tutorable one-of. Grixis is another matter, but there are tools available to cause them headaches. I have used Knight of the Holy Nimbus and Epochrasite to some success in the current meta; if you're desperate, you might want to look at Paladin en-Vec and Mystic Crusader.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
@redtwister
That was the whole reason I played Wr in Richmond. I was hedging vs. Miracles and Grixis. I did not play as many as I hoped, but P+K and the 3 caverns were all stars against both BUG and Miracles. Honestly I punted vs Miracles game 2 so I could’ve won 2-0 if not for my misplay and my opponents tight play. If you wanna be more grindy it’s all about must answer threats. And I personally felt the best one was P+K since we have 3 karakas. As far as mono-white I believe Gideon to be the best answer we have available.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
WR builds are pretty solid against Grixis, PK in particular. They used to always crush Miracles too, now they crush Miracles 50% of the time and lose hard to B2B the other 50%.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
@marungo,iatee
So here's a question: do we have any tools in WW that swing those matches that play well with creatures? I know Gideon is good, but I never liked the way a 4 mana non-creature feels in the deck. How badly would those decks be hurt by 3 Spirit of the labyrinth? I know they have a lot of removal, but they are super-dependent on draw and I feel like overloading on creatures, and creatures that tax their draw, could pressure them. Plus, we side them out versus certain decks.
Anyway, definitely been thinking about WR because in a mid-range-ey, control-y meta, P+K is a beast. I do worry about Back to Basics, since it is the new hotness for UW main deck. If you have some build ideas, please share, I think, including the new Gob, WR is at least worthy of consideration.
Thanks for the feedback.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Spirit is pretty good against miracles actually. But super medium to bad vs Grixis. Dies to everything and their deck is just a blue jund-esqe stack of removal. As far as cards go in WW, probably shalai. It’s legendary, relevant abilities, got a good body at 3/4. Issue is it dies to strix and is no “army in a tin can” that P+K is. Honestly, I don’t even mind losing to back to basics. It won’t last forever in the deck as it’s a meta call card. But that’s just me. Of course it’ll hose the RW version but if you really wanna hedge and still play RW, play some more disenchants or CJs in the board. If you want my list from the GP I’ll send it your way. Lemme know.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Marungo
Spirit is pretty good against miracles actually. But super medium to bad vs Grixis. Dies to everything and their deck is just a blue jund-esqe stack of removal. As far as cards go in WW, probably shalai. It’s legendary, relevant abilities, got a good body at 3/4. Issue is it dies to strix and is no “army in a tin can” that P+K is. Honestly, I don’t even mind losing to back to basics. It won’t last forever in the deck as it’s a meta call card. But that’s just me. Of course it’ll hose the RW version but if you really wanna hedge and still play RW, play some more disenchants or CJs in the board. If you want my list from the GP I’ll send it your way. Lemme know.
Definitely post the list.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Speaking or Wr... Mirran Crusader curving into Aurelia, Example of Justice https://www.mtgpics.com/card?ref=grn153 would be kinda cool %) Feat. Imperial Recruiter maybe, to tutor her up. I realize it's never gonna happen, but... A man can dream!
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
4 mother of runes
4 stoneforge mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of thraben
3 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Palace Jailer
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
2 Plateau
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
SB:
3 Path to Exile
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest In Peace
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Containment Priest
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Council’s Judgment
1 Recruiter of the Guard
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Marungo
3 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
Is Phyrexian Revoker really so good that you would play it over the 4th Flickerwisp!?!?
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Flickerwisp is the premier target for Recruiter of the Guard, which is why at least I feel like I happen to have one around when I need one, most of the time. I've been cutting the 4th Flickerwisp for ages now, and never really missed it.
Phyrexian Revoker has other, more subtle upsides going for it, too - it lives through Dread of Night, and is cheap and also easy to cast. There's only a few matchups where it's completely irrelevant (RUG Delver comes to mind), and its back-in-the-day drawback of pumping Tarmogoyf by 2 doesn't really matter any more. I can see why someone wants to have three copies, esp. if the meta is stuffed with relevant abilities to mess with, and your manabase is less resilient than the mono W variant's.
