The classic Berlin CT (speak City) storm15 list. Keep on storming, acid.Quote:
Originally Posted by acidhead
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The classic Berlin CT (speak City) storm15 list. Keep on storming, acid.Quote:
Originally Posted by acidhead
Hello all! I am new to this website but have been playing magic for almost 15 years now and have played my fair share of legacy tournaments with a variety of decks. I played ANT for a bit sometime early in 2016 but haven't played with it much since, and am looking to get back into it. I built a fairly stock version of it on Magic Online, and after going through the last couple pages of this thread a question came to mind: why Grim Tutor over Dark Petition? Like I said I don't have a ton of experience with the deck but I did play a copy of Petition when I was playing it(obviously I didn't have access to Grim at the time), but online Grim Tutor is a fraction of what it is IRL so it is very easily accessible. Can someone go over the pros/cons for playing Tutor over Petition? Much appreciated!
- petition usually requires other cards to be played, like nauseam; 1 or 2 rituals, so you must be sure that path is clear, otherwise you've lost more that 1 cardsQuote:
Originally Posted by d00mwake
- due to its high mana cost, it's more vulnerable to soft counters. It's easier to dodge daze with a 2-3 cmc spell.
- it doesn't synergize well with ad nauseam. Indeed, if you cast grim tutor after ad nauseam the damage you take is basically the same..... but maybe you have another line to win, that doesn't use the grim tutor.
- you don't need spell mastery. This makes grim tutor a better tutor on turn 1-2, normally in combination with empty the warrens for a quick win. In general, usually post side when the yard is more vulnerable to hate, having spell mastery is a little more complicated.
Morden pretty much covered Grim Tutor's advantages. Worth pointing out that looping Grim is really agonizing, and I personally don't think it synergizes with Ad Nauseam at all. Grim is better for fast Empty and tutoring for answers to hate cards, and it's not as big a problem if it gets countered (though if either gets countered, it's really bad), but generally Petition's better for Past in Flames loops and it costs you less life off of Ad Nauseam to reveal and cast Petition than it does to reveal and cast Grim (with the caveat Morden mentioned earlier).Quote:
Originally Posted by d00mwake
I guess my thinking is that the whole deck generally revolves around the Past in Flames-Tutor kill; by far that's been the biggest portion of my wins with the deck. Though Grim Tutor's better for most other things we might want to do, it's substantially worse in a loop with Past in Flames—and, for that matter, in a Tutor-for-Tutor-for-[card] chain.
Personally, I don't run either one right now. I might bring back a singleton Petition at some point, but I don't have any desire to run Grim.
4-0 first place at my LGS this Tuesday, borrowed most of this except what I own from what I usually play, dredge, so pardon my ignorance regarding the entire archetype. This is the third week in a row I've gotten first place at this store, the last two times were with dredge, so I felt I should switch gears vs the local players who obviously now don't want to be friends with me after coming back to the game with over a years' absence and beating all of them. So I guess the plan worked out perfectly.
2-1 Junk (opponent turn 1 raises an eyebrow 'polluted delta? interesting.' he played vs my dredge the week prior. turn 2 after 18 tokens 'wouldn't of put you on storm...')
2-0 Infect
2-1 Omnisneak
2-0 Jund
I made a few misplays, so it felt good to know I have room to be improving. Staying competitive locally is sometimes just like listening to a record, sometimes you need to pick the needle up and notch it into a new groove. Keeps things fresh.
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Dark Petition
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
SB
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tropical Island
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Disfigure
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Chrome Mox
The 4th Therapy was there really to fill a board slot with 10 minutes left until round 1 and still needing to sleeve. I'm looking to tighten up the list for when I get tired of dredge again. Anyways, some noob questions for the more active pilots, since the last time I really played legacy storm consistently it ran 4x Leyline of the Void and 4x Ill-Gotten Gains in the main, back in like 2004-2005, to try and mind twist people turn 1. We called it Iggy Pop or whatever. Fun times for all. Here we go with my questions:
Am I running one more fetch land than necessary? I did feel a bit land heavy, and light on gas in a few mid-late games. Maybe I should put a Chrome Mox in main? That might open a board slot?
Why are people usually running 2 Past in Flames in main?
In what matchups do I want more than one Tendrils or Warrens? I know my singleton Tendrils and Warrens probably makes the deck more of a glass cannon-I do play dredge usually so I'm used to it-but that doesn't mean it's correct in the current meta. My friend only had one of each laying around when I slopped this together, but I didn't feel loose without extra copies vs any of the decks I played Tuesday. I do see more copies somewhere in most other 75's.
That's about it for now. Sorry for my ignorance, and thanks ahead of time for any help with my inquiries regarding the archetype.
Good job, Laststepdown!
I'm not an expert, but here's what I think:
This one's a bit of a point of contention. I don't like having 15 lands in the maindeck, but a lot of people feel the opposite. I feel like I flood out on 15; other people feel like they can't find lands on 14. I am running a Mox in my maindeck, though it's the card that's most open for switching.Quote:
Originally Posted by laststepdown
Usually, I think people who run 15 lands run a green source instead of a ninth fetchland. Not sure whether that's better or worse because I haven't tested with a ninth fetch.
This is something I took a really long time to accept. It looks worse than an extra tutor on paper because it's not as flexible, but it does two things I'm beginning to think are crucial:Quote:
Originally Posted by laststepdown
—Double-PiF is stellar against countermagic. With only a singleton, it's hard to find one frequently enough to make a hand like mana, mana, LED, Tutor, PiF. What that does is it forces your opponent to either counter your mana spells, which leaves you open to comboing later, or they get forked because you can tutor for a discard spell, then flashback the tutor with Past in Flames even if the tutor gets countered.
—Past in Flames works excellently with a graveyard full of cantrips. I was skeptical for a long time, but if you've got the mana, you can—surprisingly often—dig enough cards to find business by reusing the cantrips you'd cast during the initial turns. So it's not really a problem to run 4-5 tutors with 2x PiF, because the PiF often works just as well. (N.B.: this changes depending on the matchup. I often side out the second Past in Flames when I'm facing graveyard hate but not countermagic; coincidentally, these are often matchups where Empty the Warrens is really good.)
Generally, I don't think you need more than one Tendrils in the maindeck. Empty is a judgment call; depends on the metagame, among other things. The extra Tendrils are for matchups like Miracles and Burn; I don't bring them in for other matchups because I just don't feel like they're necessary. If you're going with one Past in Flames, you might try bringing in a second Tendrils instead of Dark Petition against countermagic-heavy decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by laststepdown
Just to chime in; I agree with Ronald on his various assessments, though I personally like the petition over the second past in flames and 15 lands over 14. I play eight fetches, two basics, and one green source.
Does anyone still play disfigure in the SB? I usually run two, and was wondering if people thought Fatal Push would be better in that slot.
Thoughts?
Well in which cases is it not better than Disfigure?Quote:
Originally Posted by taconaut
I would definitely replace any Disfigures with Fatal Push.
I do. I think disfigure is great, especially in a DnT heavy meta. 1 cmc removal that can be cast using only basics is often game-winning. The reason I'm wary of fatal push is purely due to prelate. Fatal push is better in every situation except when it comes to prelate, where you will likely have to fetch to hit the second condition, and likely expose a non-basic to wasteland in order to remove it. Disfigure just removes it. I don't think there are many other creatures that I care about that fatal push will hit and disfigure won't. THings like goyf, I'm just as happy to use decay. I will be testing it, I'm just not sure it's strictly better yetQuote:
Originally Posted by taconaut
Three targets come to mind that Push doesn't stop: Leovold, Prelate, and new Thalia. With that said, I'm interested to try it; I've still got a Disfigure in my sideboard.
...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
Hey guys first post here. I found this right before GP Louisville and read about the last 40 pages of posts for info on sideboarding and anything helpful for the GP. I used the info to update my sideboard guide (I would greatly appreciate your guys input here; I have some questions about certain matchups) and played my list with thoughtseize instead of xantid swarm.
Here is my sb guide and List:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...wf88HYHZKY/pub
I ended up 0-4 drop. Here is how the day went.
Round 1: Dredge
G1: L, G2: W. G3: L
It was a tough matchup, as my opp combos quicker and has free cabal therapies. I was able to get game two because my opp fumbled on his dredges. G1 and G3 I didn't have much of a chance with all the cabal therapies ripping my hand.
Round 2: D&T
G1: W, G2: L, G3:L
G1 OTP I comboed off on turn 2. G2, G3 he had vial turn 1 followed by ethersworn canonist or thalia on turn 2 and then would play the other turn 3 and either a recruiter or natural prelate to lock me out. Wasn't able to draw exactly what I needed to keep up and deal with all the hate.
Round 3: Punishing Jund
G1: W. G2: L, G3: L
G1 OTD pif kill turn 3 after he gave me 2 basics from explorer and through an ooze with 2 green open. G2 he plays a DRS turn 1 and on turn 2 plays another DRS and a gaddock teeg. Wasn't able to get enough mana with a couple of cabal rituals I had in hand after killing teeg. G3: I am able to get through his hateful permanents and cast an Ad Naus. Flip over the cards and clearly see the win if I can play the fetch land. I need one more mana to be able to play 2x cabal rituals revealed. I ask my opponent if I played a land this turn and he says yes you played a volcanic island. I go deeper with Ad Naus and put myself at 1 life unable to fetch with the only land revealed and dont find any lotus petals and stop. At this point I need to hit a pif to go off with Leds. I go to cast a preordain and look at my GY I realize that I played my land last turn. Call a judge. We explain everything to him and he says that my opp misrepresented info. The judge walks away from the table to think. My opp turns to his friend and cracks a smile and says, "got to play to your outs." I tell the judge this and he dismisses it. We go over everything one more time and he says that he is not going to rewind the Ad Naus, but he will let me rewind the preordain. Cast preordain and see no pif.
Round 4: 4c Loam
G1: L, G2: W G3: L
Game one opp was on the play and on turn 2 got a chalice on one. I wasn't able to assemble what I needed before I was beat down. G2: I was OTP and discarded his chalice turn one and went off turn 2. G3: Kept a hand 2xLED, 1xIT, 2xDark ritual, island, volcanic. I decided I couldn't ship a turn 1 kill if I draw a black source. He starts with a mox, land, and CotV on one. I top deck a polluted delta, play a land, and pass the turn. He then plays a gaddock teeg and later a thalia and prelate and is able to beat me down before I am able to do anything.
It was my worst tournament ever. I have been playing storm for around a year and a half and I made day 2 of GP Columbus X-2 and top 8 every local Comp legacy tournament. I know I made one mistake against dredge and maybe one or two more, but I have never done this poorly. I went in thinking that storm was not the best deck to play, but I didn't imagine doing this poorly. I just felt like everyone had really strong hate cards and the meta game was not favorable for storm. Should I just not be playing storm now?
That was my conclusion for this tournament. I went 10-5 with BR Reanimator. Walking into a room with that many Counterbalances, Thalias, Prelates, and Chalices didn't seem optimal, and that's ignoring the Eidolons that are sure to show up at any GP regardless of how good the deck is. I wanted a combo deck that was fast enough to race all the 2 CMC permanents reliably, and one that had a better chance of winning through a chalice on 1 than ANT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Styroxis
ANT keeps putting up results, but I don't really understand how. Honestly, if I had to guess, there are just a bunch of people still forcing it, and with enough people playing some people will just get there and break through. It doesn't feel like the place to be.
Perhaps it's worth noting though, that eldrazi (this deck's greatest nemesis) has not been putting up too many great results at tournaments lately. People seem to be getting pretty wise to it, and I cannot help but notice that many of the popular decks doing well against eldrazi (and the current metagame in general) are often decent matchups for ANT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
Somehow I doubt ANT will stay down for long...
BR Reanimator, which was in the finals of GP Lousiville, is a **terrible** matchup for ANT though. And it's going to get more popular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miscanthus
ANT is never gonna go away. It's storm. You can win on turn 1 through just about anything with the right hand. And no matter how hostile the format, people will play it, and some people will do well with it. I just don't think it's necessarily a good decision to sleeve it up for a major tournament right now. It's a polarizing enough deck that even in the world's most hostile format someone will still randomly spike a tournament, but that won't change the fact that 30 or 40 people crashed and bombed with it in the same event.
It does stop all 3 of those if you fetch first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Absolutely; the thought had crossed my mind. I was analyzing it in a vacuum (primarily because I'm a bit of a pessimist), but it does get much stronger with fetches, Petals, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
Regarding whether our deck's in an optimal spot, just looking at mtgtop8, it does look like Storm is bouncing back. I'm sort of surprised, to be honest, primarily because Reanimator's burning up the playmats, but I'm not complaining.
These questions might be retreading old ground, but I'm getting more and more interested in trying Flusterstorm; how much use are you guys getting out of it these days? Which matchups are the ones in which it really shines right now?
I've been looking back on games I've played lately to determine whether I think it would've helped, and I'm on the fence.
I have actually found Flusterstorm (and Surgical Extraction) to be very effective against B/r Reanimator.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
On a similar note, while it is by no means a "great" matchup, in my experience so far the B/r
Reanimator is really not as bad as it's made out to be...and in fact arguably a better matchup for us than the U/B version. While they are indeed faster than us, not having Brainstorm, Force of Will, and Daze makes them also considerably less resilient if their combo is disrupted in any way (such as via Flusterstorm or Surgical Extraction). Also, I have found that a resolved Griselbrand is not necessarily game over for us if they resolve it, unlike the U/B version which can (and does) draw into any number of Force of Will, Daze, etc. to put the game out of reach for us.
A resolved Chancellor of the Annex is actually a bigger/more immediate problem, but like Thalia 1.0, it is not an insurmountable one.
Flusterstorm is great. I bring it in against miracles G3 sometimes, mirror, Show & tell, reanimator, elves, infect, and sometimes hymn decks. If you want more specifics you can see how I side here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...wf88HYHZKY/pub
I feel like its one of the best cards to bring in against faster combo decks. Another axis to attack your opponent besides discard.
I definitely have noticed there being less eldrazi in the US metagame, but the rise of B/R reanimator is still concerning. I think it is definitely not favorable for us, but it is still a better matchuup than eldrazi. Also something I have noticed in US GPs is that in the general metagame there are not that many miracles players. There is a widespread of combo decks and grindy midrange decks, but miracles I don't see as much. I know that there will always be experienced miracles players at any big tournament you go to, so that is a matchup you need to prepare for at least for day 2. Where I'm going with this is maybe it is time to run Scherer ANT list (at least in the US) over Togores list. I'm a big fan of Togores list, but I feel like a more consistent goldfish is exactly what storm players want in the US. If we look at storm results in the US, it seems like Scherer is one of the few consistent storm players. Let me know what you guys think about this
I have been running the Sherer list(s) for quite some time now for the exact reasons you mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Styroxis
The most recent variant (with two Tendrils of Agony, two Chrome Mox, and no Dark Petition) is able to utilize Ad Nauseam very well, giving turn two wins pretty consistently compared to other versions of ANT while preserving its late-game strength. I actually think it's quite well positioned these days...