Printable View
IMO we should include some kind of more Walker heavy build in there. Garruk + big Sorin + maybe Ob Nix + maybe Elspeth + maybe Ajani MOH/Steadfast could be the build well suited to dealing with Miracles. It'd be less solid against other strategies admittedly (the problem with being more reliant on non-zenithable wincons) but it's not like we can't play Sigarda anyway.
Now that's an idea that does improve a bad MU. Walkers not being GSZ'able is another reason to stay @4 Tops, since you do need to find them for them to be of use (Yes, I'm having a field day with this).Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I know that there won't be any drastic changes, I was mostly interested if the packages offer some slight differences. I asked mostly because I've read two different opinions in this threat about sfm package against miracles, the first one being, that the equipment makes all your little dudes into beaters, the other is that you give miracles just "some cards to ignore" and play more spells that get hit by counterbalance. Granted, combo won't change at all, but in matchups like jund or shardless there have to be some differences. I'd guess the beatdown package would work best, because you turn off bolt, decay, etc.?Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
In such a build, would you consider to run Oath of nissa, as a one-mana spell that searches for the walkers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
In a deck where roughly only 25-30% of your cards are creatures/planeswalkers? And instead of what? No. They force you to pass up too much important stuff (GSZ, Top, removal) and do so much less than whatever card they'd replace.Quote:
Originally Posted by helvetios
Quote:
Originally Posted by helvetios
I can't comment to all of the MUs as my meta is pretty slim atm, but to my impression, the beatdown is next to a must-take. What else are we ramping to? The extra interaction slot in Warden's proposed model also makes me feel good because I could see myself giving it to hand disruption which I feel has been first on the chopping block for all of these other directions discussed here and which I miss. Something like a thoughtseize can be really clutch in a combo MU but I also have a soft spot for Hymn and have unabashedly fetched both of my swamps from a vet trigger before in order to cast hymn that turn.
So if beat-down is happening, let's consider SFM vs Lands Matter. I find myself leaning more towards the lands-matter end of things. I like the LM package because it feels like a self contained plan/win con whereas equipment is inherently soft to removal in response to attach, creature sweeps like terminus, etc. Batterskull is obviously a self contained answer to those kinds of things but if you have the mana the be bouncing/recasting BS in any kind of timely manner, you also have the mana to GSZ Primetime and grab stage/depths in one go. Also, the removal that a Marit Lage token is most likely to meet is StP since that seems to be most run in the overall meta. If that's the case, we're up 20 life and probably have a better/grindier long game that can be reached with that much life cushion. The token is, of course, soft to Karakas but not all decks running StP run Karakas and even if so, StP will be a 4x vs a 1x for the legendary land. Terminus is obviously still a drag, but what else is new and I think the Miracles plan was well outlined by Matt a couple pages ago re: diversifying threats. Otherwise, KotR can also be real beats maybe even warranting the whittling down of the beat-down package to something like 3 rhinos and another interaction or walker. Also, per some different conversation parallel to this post, I think Titania is an interesting SB slot that would only benefit from the land shenanigans.
(I'm also interested in the Lands-matter package tangentially because it makes the red splash for SG from the board (or even Kologhan's Command, if we're getting spicy) ever so slightly more synergistic)
The SFM road, while enticing with the idea of a 9/9 Sigarda/Batterskull combo, somehow feels less elegant to me. To be honest, I have not given it much of a shot playtest wise but it seems to be doubling down on creatures which we already do pretty well whereas LM introduces something a little different to the degree that it presents a game plan that is developing the board with creatures and lands at the same time - creatures that can apply real beats and lands which if gone unchecked, can suddenly explode into a very urgent cause for concern.
What I am less sure of is the deed problem. The more <=4 cmc permanents we want to stick around, the more awkward deed board wipes become. Golgari charms become a hilarious blowout to make a deed more 1 sided, but that seems like a dream more than a dependable reality. I don't know what the answer is really. More recursion a la Meren or even Glissa in a SFM world? We are already open to substantial GY hate and the best path is one that pursues more consistency/CA/hand disruption. Happy to hear others weigh in, though.
Edit:
I like the planeswalker direction, but per the above think it is probably incompatible with trying to jam the beat down package and something like the LM package. As Echelon and Navsi note, being non-zenithable makes consistency more of an issue and trying to pull the deck in too many directions at once seems like spreading it too thin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
The SFM route is a more intricate and therefor more clunky beatdown route. The lands plan is just The Danger Of Cool Things as it still folds to our biggest problems whilst opening ourself up to Wasteland in the process.
I'm a big fan of Keep It Simple, Sirs. Just come up with a simple plan and throw in all the redundancy you can find to push that plan through whatever you may come across. This gives you the highest chance of the deck not shitting on itself.
As for planeswalkers - I have no problem with trading in 1/2 Siege Rhino for 4/5 CMC planeswalkers, provided we keep running 4 Tops to find them. That still leaves us with GSZ -> Siege Rhino/Sigarda and turns some Siege Rhinos into cards that actually are good vs. Miracles.
Uuf, yeah. Wasteland. This is an excellent point. Part of me is still interested in 1 or at most 2 KotR due to synergy with Tracker if you're running that and an increased number of shuffle effects but I don't know if I am soldQuote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Re: the planeswalker plan, are you ruling out new Sorin then? In my mind I am leaning toward a world that has something smaller like Liliana or Garruk R and something bigger like Grim Nemesis. Not going too hard on the PW plan and running two different ones also makes needle worse against us.
I'm leaning the other way with regards to SFM vs. Lands Matter. IMO the Dark Depths package leaves you with a relatively small number of threats compared to SFM because you lose the ability to suit up your Eternal Witness or whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by emesyu
The other issue I have with the Lands package is that it's relying more on expensive creatures, and is significantly more lacking in effects which are resistant to removal or countermagic. The Depths package is a lot less interesting in lists which aren't running some number of Life from the Loam because you're really quite vulnerable to Wasteland, especially if you're playing a list that wants to get to 7 for GSZ->Titan.
Stoneforge also gives you more game against aggro - obviously Nic Fit already does well against Delvers and so on, but the way we lose is to stumble on mana and then get wrecked by Daze, and having access to a 2-mana 'finisher' / way of turning the game around is really useful for any game where you want to stabilise.
IMO the best Lands Matter build goes deeper and plays Loam and/or Crop Rotation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I like your point re: stabilization but am also receptive to Echelon's message of simplicity/consistency. Perhaps the ideal in that line of thinking is a set up which is consistent enough (on ramp in this case) to not stumble on mana so we would not need to lean on a low mana stabilization plan (which itself will be slow given playing/equipping while low on mana).
I agree more and more with the lands path being a very committed direction and maybe just a different deck that we're trying to play in this shell. I don't lament the energy used to investigate different possibilities, but that is increasingly my feeling as well.
KotR's synergy with a card that dies to every removal spell known to man (Tracker) isn't its main selling points. It's its synergy with SDT. Seeing 3/6 new cards every-single-turn is big. Tracker is just frosting on the cake, since it's Magical Christmaslanding if that'd ever stick.Quote:
Originally Posted by emesyu
Sorin was in the SE Fit list core, not part of the beatdown package in particular. That guy is beyond awesome.
I don't necessarily agree with the consistency idea. In the SFM build, you still have GSZ targets which can stabilise you, finish a game, and get you cards. The fact that you can't GSZ for Stoneforge isn't that relevant, since most of the time the slots SFM replaces aren't GSZable creatures anyway - the Zenith toolbox is still pretty much the same size. Playing 2 rather than 3-4 Rhinos doesn't affect your Zenith, just your topdecks 99% of the time.
I've said a couple of times before that I'm not comfortable playing high (>4) numbers of pure ramp creatures because of the consistency hit you take - it means you consistently ramp, but also reduces your odds of topdecking cards which actually have a meaningful effect on the board state which concerns me since nicfit's topdecks are already highly variable (we're a deck that plays both 1/1 do-nothings and Siege Rhino) compared to most of Legacy.
Ramp lowers the number of Tops/GSZ you run..? Cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Playing a rather large number of ramp cards just increases the need for those cards whilst giving you the mana to use them effectively.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Additional shuffling is what I was using to refer to synergy with SDT. And ah I see, so ~2 walkers in addition to Grim Nemesis? Which, then? I have seen sporadic discussion of planeswalkers but never really a break down/discussion of merits of each.
Liliana is obviously strong and plays multiple roles. Edict removal and at times asymmetrical discard as we are something of a tap out deck looking to deploy threats quickly (if all goes according to plan re: ramping) if she is on the field in the late game, we may already be hellbent.
Garruk R/VC is an interesting card I have not gotten much of a chance to play with. Relentless version he is potentially even removal for monastery mentor and interestingly, another sac outlet for vets although the VC version is more compelling for that as it also turns late game vets or even STE/DRS into tutors for Sigarda. Token generation on either side is also obviously nice but beyond bodies it feeds into the tutor or even extra mana from tower. The deathtouch tokens on the VC side also seem like a big game stall vs creature oriented strategies. The question is, do we need the tutor that badly with 5 effective copies of our beat down win cons and is the set up too elaborate to get Garruk there?
Any Sorin variants beyond Grim Nemesis. Lord of Innistrad is a little interesting to me since worst case scenario if you have him out and you draw into/want to play GN, you can cash him out for an emblem for a nice static benefit before committing to GN.
Nissa, Vastwood Seer: She is technically ramp and not bad CA for her +1... I don't feel very excited about her though. She can be removed pretty easily and the 3cmc slot is a little more clogged already
Am I missing any? These are the ones I have seen in this thread so far to the best of my knowledge/memory
Nissa isn't ramp. She does progress your mana but doesn't put you ahead of your opponent if you both make a land drop every turn.
I think it's safe to say that any planeswalker we do play needs to be able to close the game in some manner. So that's building tokens or shooting stuff.
@emesyu - Ob Nixilis and Elspeth (Sun's Champion or Knight-Errant), Ajani Mentor of Heroes. Sun's Champion is probably less relevant now that Sorin can take the '6cmc finisher' slot. Ob Nix is the most obvious choice, alternatively Vraska.
All the builds run the same number of GSZ and similar Tops. That's not my point. I'm saying that adding more Veterans / STEs increases your odds of getting a second or third ramp card when you wanted a threat or other useful card. Obviously this varies with the build, since an SFM build needs the fifth/sixth land a lot less than a deck running Sorin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Fair, not ramp - at best thinning the deck slightly, but not ramp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Per this definition though, you would not take Liliana? For her low cost, I feel like she falls in the interaction camp more than the ending the game camp. Do you find you have enough interaction without her?
I read this as "playing a lot of vet/STE/etc means you will want to draw those cards while also having the mana to cast vet/STE/etc" but I think that that is wrong andddd could you clarifyQuote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Also, I know we've gone over this in pages past as a thread but I feel there is no need to disparage others as they are explaining their perspective. As someone who has cited that it is difficult to decipher intention over the internet, you are playing a bit fast and loose with the wording you direct at others. You have cool insights about mtg so I am relatively confident you are also capable of explaining why you think a different way is better in a constructive way. I was excited about this deck before I came here, but the atmosphere here has just been icing on the cake and I would love to see that fostered.
I'd like to have that 5th/6th land if I plan on casting and bouncing my Batterskull after my SFM bites the dust... Good luck casting it without the 5th land or getting it through Daze without the 6th. The sooner you can start pressuring your opponent with Batterskull, the better.
@emesyu: Yes, that'd mean I'd skip over LotV. I think we have enough removal to get by. And yes, sometimes I am a dick and at times I do play fast and loose. Please do note that I tend to attack the argument, not the person (with some exceptions every now and again). There's a (rather crucial) difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Ah, I spaced on those, thanks for pointing them out. With Elspeth, I agree that Sun's Champion is probably hedged out by Grim Nemesis, but Knight Errant evasion/pump +1 seems pretty real and is another variant of converting otherwise innocuous 1/1s into fast clocks. Still, the WW in the cost seems like a significant barrier.
Ajani MoH's second ability seems neat with the added benefit given we'd theoretically be running more planeswalkers although the synergy with seeing more with top seems perhaps even more compelling. At 5cmc though, I think the cost/benefit is not there, at least for me
Vraska could be pretty reliable removal for CB/top or pesky creatures/effects and technically gets Emrakul. She also protects herself well from creatures. She seems like an overall subpar choice, especially at the 5 cmc level to me somehow though.
With Ob Nix, which? Black Oath spits out an immediate 5/5 which is no joke if you're allowed to alternate a couple turns draining/making 5/5s but I feel like Reignited is the more likely choice, and is like a slightly less versatile but more CA-y Vraska
Again, please do weigh in, thread. This is meant more to establish parameters/begin a discussion and consists mostly of my immediate impressions pre testing/late at night >>
Also, this is not reflective at all of ultimates as I think it's safe to assume if you would be ulting, your opponent is probably moving to the scoop phase already
I'm not saying SFM doesn't want a sixth land. I'm saying that they want a sixth land less than a deck playing more high-mana spells like most other Nic Fit variants, and as such can afford to drop a ramp card or two.
I was referring to Ob Nixilis Reignited. Black Oath probably isn't worth it, his + is pretty irrelevant so he probably just makes a Demon or two. We already do 5/5 flyers much better in other places, and if we want a planeswalker that kills quickly we have Sorin. I'd look into Gideon Jura before running Black Oath (although double W is a pain, we do play Sigarda).